porks Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Genuinely pleased to see our youth academy receive further recognition in the form of our 5-star elite-whatever-it-was status. However I can't help but focus on the net product and wonder when we will finally produce a player of real talent who can recoup some of the money we have invested in youth. I'm sure others are thinking along the same lines given the recent focus around lucrative player sales boosting the coffers, (again), at clubs like Falkirk, Dundee Utd, Hearts and St Johnstone. When will we finally see a decent return coming out of our own academy? I appreciate there has been some improvement in the last decade and many people will point to the players who have made it to the first team. However, this is not a measure of success, not at a club level anyway. We no longer have to buy players and each youth player commands a wage just like any other. So I don't buy the purpose of the academy being to just bring young players into the first team. The real goal is to sell these players on for good money, making the first team is just the first step. Post-Bossman there is little benefit against just bringing more experienced players in for free. In fact it is potentially more costly to have a youth player in our team if we are not able to recover their development costs. Of course I am not suggesting a return to the practice of bringing players in over rearing our own and I am not close enough to the club to be able to tell exactly where the problem lies. David Longwell is ultimately responsible for the academy but there are many factors such as scouting, encatchment area, first team coaching and even player contract renewals. Hopefully one day we will reap the rewards but until then I think there should be a bit less back slapping and a bit more critical assessment as it seems to me that given our investment and our current setup, we ain't doing too good. Until the day when our academy can produce a player who is genuinely valued by other clubs as a future talent worth paying good money for, I'm afraid our academy has to be rated as a failure. Even if we go on to recieve a 6 star elite award thingy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogheda Saint Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 What is the longest contract we have offered a youth player upon graduating to first team? Is lack of contractual leverage a factor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Probably 12 months? This has been renegotiated after they have made a few decent performances, like John McGinn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 What is the longest contract we have offered a youth player upon graduating to first team? Is lack of contractual leverage a factor? Graduating to the first team and getting a first team contract are two different things. Those that do go from the youth set up and get in the first team get a new deal quickly (Kelly, McGinn, Naismith etc). Those that graduate but don't get in the team don't get a new deal (Brady, Scullion, Lamont etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie88 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Would be great if we could get an old fashioned number 9 from the youth academy break through. There's been plenty of midfielders making the step up but not one decent striker has been promoted to the first team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakota7 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Totally agree basher was the last really quality striker the club produced. You could argue McGarry as well but he wasn't as good. It would be good to see a home grown striker come through who could do the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardeebuds Posted September 9, 2014 Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) Genuinely pleased to see our youth academy receive further recognition in the form of our 5-star elite-whatever-it-was status. However I can't help but focus on the net product and wonder when we will finally produce a player of real talent who can recoup some of the money we have invested in youth. I'm sure others are thinking along the same lines given the recent focus around lucrative player sales boosting the coffers, (again), at clubs like Falkirk, Dundee Utd, Hearts and St Johnstone. When will we finally see a decent return coming out of our own academy? I appreciate there has been some improvement in the last decade and many people will point to the players who have made it to the first team. However, this is not a measure of success, not at a club level anyway. We no longer have to buy players and each youth player commands a wage just like any other. So I don't buy the purpose of the academy being to just bring young players into the first team. The real goal is to sell these players on for good money, making the first team is just the first step. Post-Bossman there is little benefit against just bringing more experienced players in for free. In fact it is potentially more costly to have a youth player in our team if we are not able to recover their development costs. Of course I am not suggesting a return to the practice of bringing players in over rearing our own and I am not close enough to the club to be able to tell exactly where the problem lies. David Longwell is ultimately responsible for the academy but there are many factors such as scouting, encatchment area, first team coaching and even player contract renewals. Hopefully one day we will reap the rewards but until then I think there should be a bit less back slapping and a bit more critical assessment as it seems to me that given our investment and our current setup, we ain't doing too good. Until the day when our academy can produce a player who is genuinely valued by other clubs as a future talent worth paying good money for, I'm afraid our academy has to be rated as a failure. Even if we go on to recieve a 6 star elite award thingy. I would argue that we have 1 in John McGinn but we have royally f**ked that 1 up and now he is running down his contract. Edited September 9, 2014 by cardeebuds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldo_j Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I would argue that we have 1 in John McGinn but we have royally f**ked that 1 up and now he is running down his contract. In what way was it royally f**ked up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 Would be great if we could get an old fashioned number 9 from the youth academy break through. There's been plenty of midfielders making the step up but not one decent striker has been promoted to the first team. Would be great to bring through a midfielder / forward taller than about 5ft 10 - we seem to produce a conveyor belt of midgets !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardeebuds Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 In what way was it royally f**ked up? We have allowed a player who I believe could have been the first to earn us a million pounds run down his contract and leave at the end of the season for pennies compared to what we could get. Teams like United and Hamilton have got their players on long term contracts when they spot their potential and our board/managers don't seem capable of doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) We have allowed a player who I believe could have been the first to earn us a million pounds run down his contract and leave at the end of the season for pennies compared to what we could get. Teams like United and Hamilton have got their players on long term contracts when they spot their potential and our board/managers don't seem capable of doing that.He signed a 2 and a half year contract when he broke into the team.You won't get promising young players signing a longer deal than that with a club like us, why would they? If I was their agent I certainly wouldn't advise it. We haven't royally f**ked up anything at all. Players rejecting contracts are part and parcel of the game, if John moves we will get compensation. Edited September 10, 2014 by TopCat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 We have allowed a player who I believe could have been the first to earn us a million pounds run down his contract and leave at the end of the season for pennies compared to what we could get. Teams like United and Hamilton have got their players on long term contracts when they spot their potential and our board/managers don't seem capable of doing that. Never mind £1m no one was willing to risk a quarter of that on him in the window just passed or the windows previous. You cannot force a player to sign a contract nor can you pay 1 player out of proportion to the rest of the squad so what else could we have done ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madball Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 He signed a 2 and a half year contract when he broke into the team. You won't get promising young players signing a longer deal than that with a club like us, why would they? If I was their agent I certainly wouldn't advise it. We haven't royally f**ked up anything at all. Players rejecting contracts are part and parcel of the game, if John moves we will get compensation. I don't think we have ballsed it up with regards to the contract, for as you say we couldn't have made him sign a longer contract, however I do feel that we perhaps should've considered taking one of the offers made. My thinking behind this is that it shows that we have players worthy of sale and that next time we were in the position to sell another at least we would have a benchmark to set it against... there are probably clubs looking at our players and valuing them down as we're not seen as a club that produces talent worthy of sale, whereas Falkirk and Dundee Utd constantly churn out player who aren't really significantly better than ours but always manage to secure good fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Yards Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Never mind £1m no one was willing to risk a quarter of that on him in the window just passed or the windows previous. You cannot force a player to sign a contract nor can you pay 1 player out of proportion to the rest of the squad so what else could we have done ??? Did we not turn down around 250k saying we wanted £400k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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