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civilsaint

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  1. Like
    civilsaint reacted to 10000hours in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    We have generally kept away from the answering questions put on the discussion threads and tried our best to answer the questions specifically asked in the Q & A thread.
    However folk seem to be posting more and more questions in the discussion thread, we thought we would answer this particular one first.
    "is this scheme all that it appears ?"
    We believe that having had 6 months + worth of meetings and (if memory serves) 4 presentataions with SMiSA, 2 public presentations, 1 presentation to the club AGM, 1 presentation to the a shareholders meeting and a presentation to an invited meeting of the travel club plus a general open door policy on anyone who wants to have a one to one meeting, that this scheme is what it appears to be to the 700+ people who have thus far pledged and who are now sending in their Direct Debit mandates.
    We accept that you believe it is not what it appears to be..............assuming that by wording your statement that way that you are assuming a hidden negative. e.g "the scheme appears to be good, but that is not what it really is"?
    So we will make the offer we have made elsewhere and several times , but very specifically to yourself and any others how still don't believe the motives are good and our plan sound..........e-mail us at [email protected] and set up a meeting at which we can show you the paperwork, all the business plans in as much detail as you want and ask us all the questions you can and if you are not happy with the answers then from a postion of knowing all the info then feel free to disagree with the plan.
    So it is upto you, do you want to sit down with the info, study the detail and come to your own conclusion about the 10000hours team and the proposal based on as much information as possible?
    We hope you do and hope to hear from you and of course anyone else whenever you are ready.
    10000hours CIC
  2. Like
    civilsaint reacted to reborn saint in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    It is often said on here that people are not doing enough research on the cic to make valid comments. Here is my final take on the situation we are currently in and the events that led us here. My information comes from being a supporter from the days of the Reg Brearly failed buyout, Attending the 2nd meeting and the net. SG saves the club from certain oblivion by buying the club for around £650,000 along with 4 other directors. The financial demands on the club from banks due to loans make it impossible to build a team of note and we struggle in the 1st div. We are almost releguated to div 2 and had reached the ultimate low point with the club running out of money with weeks to go to the end of the season. More borrowing and the appointment of Tom Hendry see up promoted. Season ends in a financial disaster as we are subsequently relegated the following season despite shelling out a massive increase in wages. SG makes plans to move stadium to clear debt and Gus McPherson leads us back to the spl. The ground move is completed and our debt is cleared. At this point i was looking to a brighter future for St Mirren and the reason was as follows: SG made it clear that the new stadium had far better resources to generate income from outside football with a mixture of business, public and communtity usage within the new stadium. Sadly that has not transpired but there are legitimate reasons why. St Mirren operate with an exremely low buget for an spl club and that includes the lowest amount of paid staff in the league. Falkirk generate £1M per annum from their stadium and there is no reason why we can't beat that with the right approach. They employ 4 full time staff to achieve this goal and we employ 1. Although there has been a bit of "how do we solve al our problems with a F****n bar" on here those who post this miss the point. The reason it IS so important is to create a facility that can be offered to the outside community AND meet ALL their needs for ANY event be it a wedding, party, buisness or training. If you don't have the facility to sell (as we currently don't) then we CAN'T sell it like Falkirk do. SG makes an important point about new ENERGYwhich is needed to take the club forward and that is just as important as anything.The current board are tired having being ravished by the many years keeping the club afloat (and i thank them for that). REA dosn't need St Mirren. He has a company which is 10 times our size. It has no debt and makes use of the very latest hi tech equipment including IT which frees up time for him to do other things (like a cic for St Mirren). His reputation (which is currently excelent) would be damaged by any wrongdoing or failure in this venture. Our total turnover of £3.4 million would be like a good sized contract for Maxi Group. He is in a good position to do things he is interested in like going to Romania and helping out people less well of than himself. The idea that REA somehow needs to extort money from our DD or is somehow going to strip our assets is quite simply stupid. We are a small fry company in comparison to Maxi and indeed the kibble who's turnover is £20M
  3. Like
    civilsaint reacted to reborn saint in Final Q&A & Sign Up Meeting   
    Yea sure uhhu.... Richard has not destroyed the argument. He has shown commitment by allowing his company to short term loan a much smaller buisness as is St Mirren and use his much more vast financial wealth to help the club. There is something more profound here. I think most of the anti cic don't realise that St Mirren as a company is realy very small. It has a turnover of £3.4M and generates 0 profit. Maxi Group have a £35M turnover and generate £5M profit per annum.
  4. Like
    civilsaint reacted to Reynard in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    Freedom of choice. Like any venture there is risk attached. In the real world risk is everywhere, why should anyone be insulated from it? The CiC people have to sell their vision to us punters and also other interested parties. I'm getting involved because I want to. Freedom of choice. You obviously don't want to. Again, that's entirely up to you. Nobody really gives a stuff either way. As far as I am concerned £120 sheets a year is nothing. A tenner a month is not a lot of money to me, I can afford it and I can afford to lose it as well. I do think the CiC can work and I believe that if it does work that both the club and the town will benefit from it. So I'm piling into it risk or no risk.
  5. Like
    civilsaint reacted to Sonny in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    As a supporter and season ticket holder for 40 years I have been looking at all this with interest but have not commented before now.
    Nothing in life provides future-proof guarantees. There are always uncertainties with anything whether thats a job, marriage or a CIC buyout. Ultimately you can only make decisions by studying the information you currently have, seek advice or opinion elsewhere but finally you have to trust your instinct and make a choice.
    The good thing about any choice is that if it isn't the correct choice you can make another choice at a later date. Always.
    After perusing the information and opinions placed before me, I like the whole idea of the CiC model. I like the fact that the ethos is more than just the football club but is also about people out there in the community. A community spirit is something which Western society has little of. Providing opportunities to those disadvantaged or those that require support or providing frameworks for new ventures is a great goal which should also bring many benefits to the club. My knowledge, to date, and instinct tell me to endorse it.
    There are those who obviously have reservations (no pun intended, Yul). However they are making a mockery of this important debate by not addressing their reservations in an open and honest way so that issues can be addressed and dealt with. This sniping away in whispers from the corner does no-one any good and nullifies any serious points the snipers may have. If the snipers have valid points then lets hear them in an open and constructive way because at the moment they are just turning people off. And if their points are ultimately justifiable then THEY should be blamed for their childish behaviour with no 'I told you so' chest beating as they are NOT telling us coherently what these reservations are.
    This situation reminds me of Ian Gray's performances against Alex Salmond every week where all he ever did was moan away in a quiet voice without ever offering valid points or suggesting solutions. It gets boring.
    If the dissenters have something to say then say it and give us alternatives to consider or else shut up. You are helping no-one at the moment especially your own credibility. If you have valid points please make them sensibly so they can be discussed and answered by 10000hours and provide more information to the knowledge base for decision making. At the moment you are doing a dis-service to your fellow supporters.
  6. Like
    civilsaint reacted to Stuart Dickson in Final Q&A & Sign Up Meeting   
    Yep, that's so often the way these days. It even appears to happen when you use £100,000 of your own companies money to provide a short term loan to a football club you didn't have any emotional attachment to 18 months ago. It's strange how the internet has spawned so many expert spin doctors.
  7. Like
    civilsaint reacted to rea in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    Sorry to disappoint you all but there is no conspiracy, let me explain.
    You will firstly notice this is coming from my personal forum account rather than 10000hours.
    This is because the financial transaction that I will discuss in a moment has nothing to do with 10000hours.
    The transaction which has resulted in the noted charge is purely a matter of the Board of St Mirren FC running the club.
    So what is all this about:
    The club as a result of the stadium move etc has been due a tax rebate of over 100K. This was expected to be in around about March 2011, but as happens with these things it took longer than intended, no fault of the club.
    Some of you may have an understanding of the bugeting process that a football club goes through and the schedueling of payments that come to the club from the likes of the SPL etc.
    Obviously the club at the beginning of the season budgeted on the tax return being in before the end of the season 2010/2011 and as it is in the best interests of the club to make sure it can spend as much money as it has avaliable on the product on the park this money was factored into the equation.
    However when the money did not come in as planned, and indeed was going to be significantly delayed the Board of Directors have to take the responsibilty to sort out any potential short term cash flow position that may end up happening
    Normally what would happen is that your Board members would all put a few thousand pounds of their own money in on a short term basis to get over any blip that may occur.
    (This is one of those things that BOD tend not to get any credit for when people are commenting on what they do for the club.)
    However the board decided that as we were in the middle of the takeover that we hoped would complete before the end of the season (rather than as is now scheduled June) that having individual directors writting money into the club could lead to some confusion and I was happy that instead Maxi Group would lend a very small amount of money on a short term basis into the club so that if cash flow became a problem while we were waiting on the Tax refund then we would be able to pay suppliers and not let anyone down.
    On the basis that we knew the tax refund was coming but just not in the timescale we hoped this seemed resonable.
    However for one Ltd company to lend to another it all needs to be done legally and above board and so the debt is registered as a charge on St Mirren FC.
    Now the payment from the Tax man arrived in on Monday and so the charge will shortly be removed and the money that was put in to prevent any cash flow issues for St Mirren and thus affect the clubs local suppliers, will be paid back.
    It is just as simple as that.
  8. Downvote
    civilsaint reacted to animal in Volunteers Needed !   
    You say ""Richard has in fact already put in a six figure sum into the CLUB, never mind the CIC."". Can you please explain this bold statement.
    How much on what ? Or is that confidential as well.
    You have used this forum to help promote this scheme for the last few months. Please do not try to wriggle out of your responsibility by saying you ""you only posted a link"". If this scheme falls flat on its financial face in a years time and all of the money from members is lost you will have to share part of the blame. You and your friends on here have helped to encourage people to invest their hard earned cash in this scheme.
    Unlike you and Sid, I have not sunk to personal abuse.
    The whole issue of promoting this scheme actually raises some interesting questions. I remember at one of the public meetings someone asked a very good question. It was along the lines of ""why are you not selling shares ? "" There was no real answer given to this question. It is not my area of financial expertise but I seem to rememberer that offering of shares brings with it some legal issues including an a responsibility on the seller . Maybe that is the reason that no shares are actually being offered to us.
  9. Downvote
    civilsaint reacted to animal in Volunteers Needed !   
    I completely agree.
    Frankly I was sickened and angry today to see these leaflets being put out. While Mr. A and Co. were sitting in the comfort of the boardroom.
    Many of our fellow supporters WHO CAN ILL AFFORD to take part in this dubious idea are being conned into taking part in a scheme to turn our team into a rich man's plaything FUNDED BY SOME OF OUR POOREST SUPPORTERS.
    What will be next ? How about putting out leaflets for the likes of WONGA.com. Invite supporters to borrow money at 4000% plus APR.
    How about leaflets for a local loan shark.
    St sid, Div and co. You should all be VERY ashamed of yourselves. Frankly after 40 odd years I don't know if I ever want to set foot in the place again.
  10. Downvote
    civilsaint reacted to buddiecat in Church at SMP   
    they will worm their way in like they do everywhere and will try to take more control, all they want is control over people,the unfortunates they help have to agree to go to places like their church if they want a lighter sentence or time out of hospital. they are convinced they will be looked after when they are dead if they look after some poor souls, basically they are nutcases who think they are sensible
  11. Like
    civilsaint got a reaction from Sonny in Another Corporate Member Added   
    But it is possible to be a passive St Mirren supporter.
    I can safely say that if St Mirren were to be relegated I would not renew my season ticket, never mind spend an additional £120.
    Why? Because I've got many other interests in life which matter just as much, if not more than SMFC. I don't blindly spend money on things that aren't really that important to me.
    Does that make me less of a St Mirren supporter? You decide, but I don't really care what conclusion you reach.
    The implementation of the CIC is heavily based on a feel good factor and positivity to attract members to sign up. At the end of the day it is a sales pitch. Anyone who doesn't believe this is seriously deluded.
  12. Downvote
    civilsaint reacted in 10000 Hours Q&A Thread   
    thank you for your response, but please allow me to correct the false statements you have made regarding who i think the REAL St mirren community are.
    It isn't unknown corporate members (obviously that would exclude the board as they are known by all as having run a good football club, without the need to attack the fan base or people asking questions. perhaps thats something you may grasp in time)
    and it isn't a selection of community groups you have chosen to invite, where one has already secured (from your info) a six figure contract to develop a bar that they will in some way manage/control/run
    forget the smokescreens and desperation in your response, just explain why you came to the fans of SMFC last! in April informing them it needed to be tied down by May so a transfer of power could take place?
    and to identify that their are 4500 potential intrested parties in your individual membership scheme but still failing to get them on board first (who else will talk up and spread the vision better than those involved) is completely mystifying and poor form. shame on you
    back to you first point, glad you accept you have done little to engage with groups i.e. SHAREHOLDERS yes unbelievably shareholders and STH are last in line in the Community. because of stamp prices???
    p.s. liked the little bit of "Politics" there at the end of your post listing the parties you have spoken to LAST but trying to turn the numbers and emphasis round to suggest i was the one who ignored them for a year. pity its been rumbled though better luck next time
  13. Like
    civilsaint reacted to Reynard in No fans control and club loses revenue with CIC   
    I don't mind people being against this whole thing.
    I do mind them refusing to take their concerns to the public meetings and letting the folk that might give them answers a chance to explain themselves.
    Lets face it, there will be concerns about how the club operates regardless of the set up. If the consortium flogged their shares to some random who is to say THEY would have run the club the way we might like? I was a shareholder when Lewis Kane hit the gamble button and I had no say in the matter as we racked up a debt that had us in the poorhouse for near enough two decades.
    We get all these folk coming on here with their concerns. Do they actually go to the public meetings and ask these questions there? Or are they just happy to gripe away on the sidelines?
    There ARE questions to be asked. Some of the long winded posters have asked a few good questions on the thing. Some have been answered of course.
    You get the impression that even if every single fear these people have about the CiC were allayed they would STILL be grumbling away on the sidelines.
    Personally I waited to see what was said by Atkinson, and especially Gilmour as I wanted to hear what he thought of it. I like the idea of the CiC, its now up to us lot to either back it or decide we want a conventional owner to buy the club and run it as he sees fit.
    I'm in.
  14. Downvote
    civilsaint reacted to thewestender in No fans control and club loses revenue with CIC   
    Having read Richard Atkinson’s information document, seen his presentation slides and read the live Tweet report from the public meeting last week, St Mirren fans should be aware of the following before deciding whether or not to give their money to the 10,000 Hours CIC company -
    1. St Mirren fans and the local community will NOT be in ‘control of the destiny of the club’ as Mr Atkinson puts it. Despite all the PR spin and media hype, St Mirren fans will NOT be running the club.
    At the public meeting and stated in the live Tweet of the meeting, Mr Atkinson said that an executive board of 10,000 Hours - made up of Mr Atkinson and ‘the guys who have created the CIC’ will retain control of St Mirren’s ‘budget’ and ‘significant contracts’.
    This executive board is self-appointed, unelected, unaccountable and does not contain representatives of the fans paying £10 a month, community groups paying £500 a year or companies paying £10,000 a year.
    The club’s budget, (how much is spent on the player pool) and who is offered a ‘significant contract’ (manager, coaches and players) are the two most important areas that are central to the success of any football club and whether St Mirren remains in the SPL or is taken to the lower divisions.
    This small band of individuals on Mr Atkinson’s executive board - and not the members board of 10,000 Hours made up of fans’ representatives - will effectively control the club.
    2. Under the CIC proposals, St Mirren Football Club will lose out on revenue that normally would have gone directly to the club for player budgets etc. Instead of going to the club, this money will be used to repay the loans taken out to pay off the directors who are selling their shares.
    Mr Atkinson says in his information document that ‘it is 10000hours that is entering into any borrowing, and not the club directly.’ However, he goes on to admit ‘the funding to repay any debt will come from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC an area all recognise as under-utilised, especially since the stadium move.
    Mr Atkinson is admitting that extra revenue from ‘trading on the assets’ of the club will not go to the club but to pay off the CIC debt incurred to buy the shares of Gilmour and Co. While Mr Atkinson is claiming he doesn’t intend to use the stadium to secure the CIC’s debt, he is going to use revenue from St Mirren FC to pay off that debt.
    This is confirmed in the Tweet report of the public meeting last week which says ‘Richard explaining that the club has many under-utilised assets. 10000Hours intends to use these assets to generate extra revenue.’
    And revealing what is going to happen to this extra revenue from the club, Mr Atkinson says in his presentation ‘Most fans that are familiar with the new stadium in comparison to the old recognize that there are a number of underutilized assets. 10000hours will exploit these opportunities in order to pay off any debt element of the funding.’
    In a nutshell, the fans are being asked to fund the 10,000 Hours purchase of the consortium’s majority shareholding along with over £1 million in loans. Money that would normally benefit the club through its own commercial activities will instead go to pay off the debts taken on by the CIC to buy a majority shareholding.
    And while all this is going on, the real power and influence in how the club is being run - control of the club’s budget, who the manager is and which players are signed – lies with Mr Atkinson and his friends on the executive committee with no input from fans or community.
  15. Downvote
    civilsaint reacted in 10000 Hours Q&A Thread   
    glad to hear that, correcting a malicious rumour posted elsewhere. maybe in your public interactions though, (inclusive of your post response above) you would encourage more involvement if you avoided the slip towards derision, (and using that to seek greater engagement with the people who support your proposal)
    David Cameron got that wrong today, perhaps thats one lesson we can learn from him
  16. Like
    civilsaint reacted to div in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    I am puzzled by the comments of the likes of Animal and Yule Brynner.
    These are guys who took the time to attend the public meeting, listened to all that was said, and then ran back home to type on an internet forum about how terrible it all is.
    Yet they said nothing at the meeting. There was NO dissent shown other than by Michelle Evans who simply could not understand the concept being explained to her.
    When Reg Brealey addressed the AGM all those years ago he spoke incredibly well and had everyone present eating out the palm of his hand with his exciting tales of massive investment and a return to European Football.
    Yet at the back of that audience came some dissenting voices in the shape of Stewart Gilmour, Charlie Palmer et al.
    They had done their homework, they knew of the threat that was unfolding and began to pick apart the plan with consumate ease as it happened.
    Why do the dissenters to the CIC plan not do their homework ? Why not spend the time investigating in detail what is happening, go and speak to Richard on a 1:1 basis if that helps, then persuade the supporters WHY this is a bad plan that is putting the club at risk. And have the balls to stand up and say that at the public meeting.
    Don't sit behind your computer screen and label eveyone else a f**kwit - do something constructive with your argument and you might get more backing.
  17. Like
    civilsaint reacted to steve_the_saint in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    You're right in saying that the forum is open to all opinions and the best questions are coming from the cynics but somner9 has consistently tried to imply that some people have underhand intentions to make money from the cic, based on no evidence at all. He's also been exaggerating the amount of loans and debt that wel be in and is trying to discredit the cic at every possible opportunity - despite constantly being put right.
    However, Some people just have a cynical, negative Outlook on life - maybe he's one of them.
  18. Like
    civilsaint reacted to Tracy Barlow Loyal in Church at SMP   
    Twenty-two years ago today, 96 People died under terrible and tragic circumstances. This afternoon, I watched some of the Memorial Service live on Television from Anfield. I am not a Supporter of Liverpool Football Club. I do not claim to know the complete “ins” and “outs” of 15th April, 1989. I also do not “take sides” regarding who is to blame or not to blame. I do however take great interest in this day every year and the Memorial Service which takes place and the fact that various Churches within the Liverpool and Merseyside area are represented at this Service. They all gather as one. They pray as one. They respect and console one another. The arm of friendship is extended to one another regardless of whether the person next to them is a Roman Catholic, a Protestant, a member of a Gospel Church (sorry I’m not sure what such a person is called, but I’m sure some knowledgeable person such as Bluto will stand me corrected) or are associated with any other Church. That is a society I would like to live within.
  19. Like
    civilsaint reacted to buddieup in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    I've read the document and yes it does look good. With the risk of sounding sceptical I'm going to wait a while before deciding on whether to participate. I would love to do so and £10 a month is a very reasonable amount, however £120 extra a year for a student is a fair whack, so I'm going to wait until further info comes out. I'd love to participate, but need to know how much value for money it is for me personally (selfish I know) and how it benefits me and the club. Once I'm working I will look to buy into the CIC regardless, but in the short term, I might have to just back the team the old fashioned way by paying at the turnstyles.
  20. Like
    civilsaint reacted to 10000hours in The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours   
    Folks,
    While it is not terribly practical to answer questions on a piecemeal basis just now we will start to go through some of the previously posted questions on this and the offical forum that can be answered in a more straight forward manner, in order to clear up some easily resolved queries.
    We will have some online Q&A sessions shortly and the public meetings which will be a better forum to deal with some of the more complex questions and concerns.
    We all appreciate your patience and the fact that many are really giving the issue considerable thought and articulating some worthy questions.
  21. Like
    civilsaint reacted to barney in Church at SMP   
    i'm a bit lost as to the problem with a church group using a suite at st mirren's ground. The OF problems are more to do with drunken ignorance rather than religious differences and don't really translate into normal practising religion.
    Good on the club for finding alternative revenue streams.
  22. Like
    civilsaint reacted to ktf in Church at SMP   
    1. Isn't a "count" - it's pedantry of the highest (read lowest) order.
    2. Glad to see you have been nominated to speak for all atheists on this matter. When did this happen? Or were you naturally selected to be the representative? Of course, that can't be the case as it is the smartest that rise to the top, not the most smug/arrogant... If I have understood the theory correctly.
    You should really read Dawkins et al for some concise and accurate information on Atheism instead of assuming what you believe to be true and spouting it on here as if it is fact.
    Atheists do indeed adhere to an ideology, the ideology that there is no Christian God. If Christians believe that there is a God and that He is revealed trough the scriptures and through the person of Jesus Christ, then the Atheist ideology is opposed to this. It is impossible to not have an ideology. Ideology is defined as the study or concepts and ideas. In the context used in this thread it is about beliefs or lack of beliefs that form that way that a person lives. Even if someone doesn't know that they have an ideology, the way that they look at life, the things that they do, their aims and goals all for their ideology. A person can't have no ideology.
    Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, doesn't "bind people in one mindless mass". That is Atheist scaremongering and shows a clear atheist ideology and agenda to indoctrinate people about the "evils" of religions. Maybe some do, but most churches I am aware of encourage their members to think, study, debate and come to their own conclusions on matters of faith, doctrine, ethics etc. Religion and Christianity will always have extremists, but don't be foolish enough to allow the few to influence your view of the many.
    And on that, to suggest that religion "binds people into one mindless mass" is an attitude the type of which you claimed atheists don't have. This makes you a religious bigot.
    So, let me get this straight. A person's lack of a belief in a Christian God means that they will dismiss the teaching of the Christian faith and therefore hate Christian teaching and what the Christian faith stands for. And this type of hatred, of a belief system is perfectly rational? So, extreme negative emotion because a person doesn't hold to the beliefs of another person is the product of careful thought? So, if I hated Darwinism and the exponents thereof, that would be borne out of rational thought? Or is it just your point of view, your own hatred, your own prejudices, your own bigotry and your own non-ideological ideologies that are a result of rational thought and everyone else's are a result of... Eh... Mashed potato? Pie in the sky? The TV? What? Your point of view is conceited and arrogant to the highest order and really quite offensive to read and process.
    Just as not all Christians (Roman Catholic or Protestant) are bigots, neither are all Atheist. They are happy believing what they believe and, when given the chance, will respectfully put their point of view across. But others, like You Bluto, are bigoted. They (you) spout derisive, maligning, negative, scaremongering, ill-informed misinformation in a mocking and condescending tone and try to so in the name of rational or religious or atheistic superiority. It is sickening to read and smacks of hypocrisy. Thankfully most people, religious or atheist aren't like you and don't spout as repulsive and ignorant bile as you do.
    Live and let live, buddy
    Hope this helps.
  23. Like
    civilsaint reacted to dardo in Church at SMP   
    I myself am an atheist of around 26 years, but I have to say I am somewhat alarmed about the rise of "fundamentalist atheism" as preached by dawkins and the like.
    This thread, or some people "representing" the atheists on this thread, has become a bit silly.
    Respect should be granted to any belief system. Similarly, atheism and agnosticism should be respected also.
    Fundamentalism is stupid, no matter whether it be Muslim, Christian or atheist.
    As billy bragg once said, "a poet with all the answers has never yet been built".
  24. Downvote
    civilsaint reacted to Drew in Church at SMP   
    I had a self-serve Morrisons salad box for lunch, followed by a royal gala apple.
    Boiled eggs are great, but they have a tendency to come back on me. Does anyone else have that experience?
  25. Like
    civilsaint reacted to ktf in Church at SMP   
    And I object to them NOT being associated (whatever that means) with any religious organisation. My grounds for objections? Diversity, inclusivity and multi-culuralism.
    I can object just as much as you can on just as valid grounds.
    Oh, and on that, as I have some experience in this, it is very hard to justify (without being taken to court and ruled against), if you are advertising your premises for people to hire out, to discriminate again a particular group because of religion, sexual orientation, race, gender etc. So, unless you want the club taken to court and tarred with all sorts of brushes, they really have no choice but to allow it.
    A reasoned debate? What, based on the inaccuracies of your interpretation of Christianity and Christian doctrine and on the blanket fallacy that all science agrees with all other science, is 100% provable and not based on assumption and "faith"? A reasoned debate in which you expound the virtues of modernist atheistic humanism but those who desire to express the hope they have found in their faith or the greater meaning and calling of their existence or the life that they didn't know they could have or the freedom or healing or purpose will be roundly mocked and called weak-minded and told that their points of view are meaningless because the are individual and post-modern and based on feeling as opposed to "reasoned argument". Which, by the way, is all that Atheism is, a feeling, opinion, though on how the universe might work. Darwinism, as you openly lauded in an earlier post has a very slim evidence base and is largely theory that, for lack of another more provable scientific answer has become the mantra for those who can't be arsed looking deeper into life or the origin of such. There is no reasoned debate in Darwinism, there is no reasoned debate in humanistic atheism. It is as much based on feeling assumption, hope and faith, as religion is. Excepting that, religion has centuries and millennia or research, debate, conversation, scholarly input, theism, writing speaking and thinking attached to it to give it weight an validity. Humanistic Atheism, has about 20 years of poorly researched and poorly regurgitated misinformation produced by poorly educated, prejudiced individuals with a desire to make the world a boring and poorer place. A reasoned debate would be one, but since you have no foundation from which to debate that isn't misinformation or mocking, I see that as being unlikely.
    No insults, just the advice to go and research Orthodox Christian Doctrine on Creationism vs what you just reckon people in churches think about how the world was made. You may be shocked.
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