Why Are We Getting It So Wrong?

[oaksoft]

Oaksoft, like it or not Saints0, made a point which I think has been aired a few times on this forum, namely:

DL has basically been told there is little or no money available to buy in new players so we have ditched a few to release some wages and we have picked up a couple of reasonable-looking players so far. At this stage, we are looking at a very thin squad.

Other than that he is going to rely on the youngsters coming through and that is fact - whether they are good enough overall is going to be the question - yes McGinn looks the part, but so did Kenny McLean. Reilly looks reasonable, but is young and if he is being thought of a striking partner to ST, give me Concalves every day.

I agree with Pozbaird's overall post - things are relatively healthy in terms of how the club is run - whether we have the quality of players capable of stepping up from underage football to the rigours of the Scottish Premier League is questionable and if DL is depending on that, as this and future season's approach, then we are in for some really bumpy rides.

Not many on here will disagree with what you are saying above.

That isn't what saint0 is doing at all though.

What he is doing is posting nothing but negative over the top abuse about every aspect of our team repeatedly over a period of weeks.

He's also picking on individual players. He's not pointing out their deficiencies, he's coming onto a public forum he knows our players read and is verbally abusing them from the safety of anonymity just a couple of days before our opening game of the season.

Under no circumstances does that behaviour fall into the category of "supporting your team" and he needs pulling up for it.

[linwood buddie]

Maybe a way forward is to try an entice more ex players back into coaching with the clubs and at regional levels , I remember in the late 90's I was on a coaching course at the astro turf outside Ibrox which involved the Rangers under 18's , John Brown, Billy Kirkwood and John McGregor were amongst the Rangers coaches.

[Robo]

...whether kids believe that a Scot can succeed like Messi.

I think this is an important point also. I've felt for a long time that Scotland has a national inferiority complex - an 'everythings shite', 'we've no hope' kind of attitude (could easily stray into another arguement here, but I won't...). We are comfortable with the plucky underdog tag and I wonder if that is part of what prevents our sportsmen and women from becoming international or world class.

I also think that from a football perspective, the ambition of too many young players is to play for one of the old firm - once they've done that, they've made it. Far too few Scottish players try to make it on the continent - Lambert and Collins are examples of the improvement that can be achieved in doing so.

[Reynard]

Why is Scotland shite at cricket?

You're right about our coaching in days gone by but we still produced far better players than we are getting now.

My take on it is patience but having scrapping reserve leagues too many players aren't getting developed.

Up here it seems to be if you're aren't ready by 19 forget it.

Someone made a good point about Reilly how lightweight he looks and should be bulking up.

As someone rightly pointed out his body is still growing and developing.

I will take the most debated player on here for an example Cheesy.

He was moved on from here and brought back and truth be told i didn't rate him

But he has been allowed to develop and there's a big improvement in his game.

Too many are getting released at 19 and within a year are out of the game as they have had to find a career outside football

Little wonder we aren't producing players when the vast majority are getting released when their bodies are still growing

Because anyone that has genuine potential gerally needs to be picked up by an English county and developed by them. This means leaving home fairly young and trying to turn pro. The game up here is amateur apart from the fact that most cricket clubs will try to bring in an overseas professional player who will both play for the first team and try to help raise standards and will coach the young players or at least teach them to a standard so that they can enjoy playing the sport in an organised fashion.

The actual Scotland team is now involved in the limited overs game at Engish county level, which is a fairly huge step up in class for a bunch of guys that predominantly play because they love the game. But they do it, they normally get pummelled but it helps improve their game generally.

There are cricket clubs all across Scotland and in some places that would surprise a lot of people, tough working class areas more often than not. There is decent participation levels at junior level which helps grow the game although the weather up here means its never easy to get games on. Last season was pretty much a total washout all over.

All I'm pointing out was that I got taught to play the game as a nine year old or younger. And then when it became clear that I was pretty good I got better one to one coaching which made me even better. I never got ANYTHING like that playing football. And judging what my own kid is getting at one of the better set up boys clubs in my area, its still pretty much the case although they now play on smaller pitches. Thats progress in itself at that age group and the kids seem toi have fun, which at the end of the day it's all about. You want kids playing sport, any sport, keeping active and hoepfully enjoying it. The ones with ability should be able to progress.

I think a part of the problem is actually levels of participation, its something folk my age and older can laugh about, how we played football on any spare ground or in the street, but that doesnt happen so much now.

I do think the actual structure of kids football is much better now and better focussed, but the results will take a while to filter through I suppose and we seem to be trying to mimic what other countries have got up[ to in the past thirty years or so, and like an oil tanker, it takes a while to turn around.

[stlucifer]

Personally I think we should bring back conscription and make 14-18 year olds play football for 7 hours a day, seven days a week for a period of no less than 26 weeks!

That'll learn 'em!

Seriously.

I see more and more youngsters returning to football as the facilities become more availlable and accessible. Places like the dome at Saint Mirren Park and decent, modern artificial turf will encourage the developement of our wannabe football stars.

We have taken that backward step but I personally see things changing for the better and going full circle as kids get bored with "antireality" games.

[oaksoft]

Maybe a way forward is to try an entice more ex players back into coaching with the clubs and at regional levels , I remember in the late 90's I was on a coaching course at the astro turf outside Ibrox which involved the Rangers under 18's , John Brown, Billy Kirkwood and John McGregor were amongst the Rangers coaches.

Actually a better way would be to recruit only those who have made it to anything approaching world class regardless of which country they belong to. They already know the full package of what is required to get to the very top.

Andy Murray didn't break through until he hired a coach who knew exactly what Andy needed to do to make that last step.

[windae cleaner]

Actually a better way would be to recruit only those who have made it to anything approaching world class regardless of which country they belong to. They already know the full package of what is required to get to the very top.

Andy Murray didn't break through until he hired a coach who knew exactly what Andy needed to do to make that last step.

You have a point.

The 3 ex R*ng*rs coaches mentioned i have heard nothing but horror stories and were part of the problem.

They were getting the best talent in the country and weren't getting the players coming through

[oaksoft]

I think this is an important point also. I've felt for a long time that Scotland has a national inferiority complex - an 'everythings shite', 'we've no hope' kind of attitude (could easily stray into another arguement here, but I won't...). We are comfortable with the plucky underdog tag and I wonder if that is part of what prevents our sportsmen and women from becoming international or world class.

I also think that from a football perspective, the ambition of too many young players is to play for one of the old firm - once they've done that, they've made it. Far too few Scottish players try to make it on the continent - Lambert and Collins are examples of the improvement that can be achieved in doing so.

You're right.

I call this the Scottish Disease.

Lack of ambition, lack of vision, scared to even attempt at success for fear of failure, ridicule and the "putting people in their place" loser clique who've destroyed this once great country. We all hate true winners in this country of ours - taking delight in their successes only to take even greater joy seeing them fall into ruin - back in with the rest of us in the cesspit of despair.

It comes from having a country which doesn't even control it's own finances and is a fertile ground for breeding complacency and dependency. You'll see the extent of that next year when after 700 years of English bashing racism, resentment, conflict, death, anger and frustration, millions of Scots will literally clart their pants with fear at the prospect of leaving the family home and becoming responsible for themselves and thus voting to stay in the Union with Daddy England looking after all our bills. An argument for another day though......

[oaksoft]

Personally I think we should bring back conscription and make 14-18 year olds play football for 7 hours a day, seven days a week for a period of no less than 26 weeks!

That'll learn 'em!

Seriously.

I see more and more youngsters returning to football as the facilities become more availlable and accessible. Places like the dome at Saint Mirren Park and decent, modern artificial turf will encourage the developement of our wannabe football stars.

We have taken that backward step but I personally see things changing for the better and going full circle as kids get bored with "antireality" games.

I was listening to Darren Gough (the cricketer) on Talksport last week.

He was describing kids today and in particular his own son who is 18 or so.

He said he sometimes sees his kid out with his mates in pubs around town in groups of about 10.

None of them are actually talking. They are sitting around in a group and all of them are texting.

He wondered who the hell they were texting who was more important than the people they were with and why weren't they with those other people who were clearly more interesting. I saw a group of girls on a hen night waiting for a train. They all had t-shirts on with the event printed on it and every single one of them was texting someone who wasn't invited to the party.

This is of course just my way of having a cheap excuse to laugh at young people but it is insightful.

[linwood buddie]

Actually a better way would be to recruit only those who have made it to anything approaching world class regardless of which country they belong to. They already know the full package of what is required to get to the very top.

Andy Murray didn't break through until he hired a coach who knew exactly what Andy needed to do to make that last step.

I agree with that ,but as an association do you think they would or could spend the money this would need .

[oaksoft]

I agree with that ,but as an association do you think they would or could spend the money this would need .

Football, despite what the SFPLPFLSPL would have us believe, is rolling in cash because we can still see most clubs in the top division paying thousands of pounds a week to players.

It's certainly the most cash rich sport in the country.

If clubs and the league authority had any moral decency at all they'd stop paying players thousands of pounds a week and pay money into a huge fund which would deal with this problem.

You see the problem here is that I see football as a kind of community where everyone helps each other out for the betterment of everyone. By that I mean truly help each other out - not just tossing £20,000 to an already failing club.

Football however has been allowed to become a "business" despite this being patently absurd. Less a survival of the fittest and a survival of the fattest. Let's see the proof. Since the SPL was formed we've seen the OF trouser all of the money and yet neither can now compete in Europe to any extent because their greed has killed competition in their home leagues. So that model has been a stunning suicess.

There's more than enough money in the game for it to run itself but our greedy clubs all want to keep it to themselves so they can chase the boyhood dream of finishing 6th in the top flight.

So in summary, the money is out there but it's all being pissed away which means we'll fall further and further behind.

Europe has overtaken us.

Even central america has overtaken us.

Asia and Oceana have also overtaken us and now Africa has joined them.

If scientists went to Antartica and trained the seals and penguins I'm pretty sure that within 20 years we'd be struggling to compete with them too.

The solution isn't easy but it needs clubs to come together for the financial betterment of the entire game from grassroots upwards. Clubs should be funding this themselves as a kind of mutual organisation. The SPLFPLFPSPL doesn';t begin to deal with this and to be honest the clubs don't give a shit so we can look forward to continued failure in Europe, continued whining about it, and continued ignoring of the problem.

[Smeato]

I was listening to Darren Gough (the cricketer) on Talksport last week.

He was describing kids today and in particular his own son who is 18 or so.

He said he sometimes sees his kid out with his mates in pubs around town in groups of about 10.

None of them are actually talking. They are sitting around in a group and all of them are texting.

He wondered who the hell they were texting who was more important than the people they were with and why weren't they with those other people who were clearly more interesting. I saw a group of girls on a hen night waiting for a train. They all had t-shirts on with the event printed on it and every single one of them was texting someone who wasn't invited to the party.

This is of course just my way of having a cheap excuse to laugh at young people but it is insightful.

As a young person I have to say this is a minority! Me and my pals sit around the pub, talk shite and occasionally show someone something on our phone, in the exact same way you might show your pal a funny or interesting story in the paper! Nothings changed, merely the medium.

[Leicester Saint]

I think this is an important point also. I've felt for a long time that Scotland has a national inferiority complex - an 'everythings shite', 'we've no hope' kind of attitude (could easily stray into another arguement here, but I won't...). We are comfortable with the plucky underdog tag and I wonder if that is part of what prevents our sportsmen and women from becoming international or world class.

I also think that from a football perspective, the ambition of too many young players is to play for one of the old firm - once they've done that, they've made it. Far too few Scottish players try to make it on the continent - Lambert and Collins are examples of the improvement that can be achieved in doing so.

Really good post. Although the one thing I would say is that the underachieving seems much more of a football thing. We have a good number of top sportsmen and women in other fields. Andy Murray, Chris Hoy, to name but two. At the Olympics last year, Scottish athletes won a lot more medals than plenty of other, bigger nations.

However, there are 2 sports where we seem to have declined terribly. One is football and the other is rugby.

[saints0]

Not many on here will disagree with what you are saying above.

That isn't what saint0 is doing at all though.

What he is doing is posting nothing but negative over the top abuse about every aspect of our team repeatedly over a period of weeks.

He's also picking on individual players. He's not pointing out their deficiencies, he's coming onto a public forum he knows our players read and is verbally abusing them from the safety of anonymity just a couple of days before our opening game of the season.

Under no circumstances does that behaviour fall into the category of "supporting your team" and he needs pulling up for it.

Abuse !!!! Constructive criticism i think you'll find .Players log on,read my comments and play like legends on Saturday to spite me,job done.But i know you would probably prefer if i started a thread entitled "Van zanten to Tottenham ?" I will bear it in mind

[Isabella Duke]

Football, despite what the SFPLPFLSPL would have us believe, is rolling in cash because we can still see most clubs in the top division paying thousands of pounds a week to players.

It's certainly the most cash rich sport in the country.

If clubs and the league authority had any moral decency at all they'd stop paying players thousands of pounds a week and pay money into a huge fund which would deal with this problem.

You see the problem here is that I see football as a kind of community where everyone helps each other out for the betterment of everyone. By that I mean truly help each other out - not just tossing £20,000 to an already failing club.

Football however has been allowed to become a "business" despite this being patently absurd. Less a survival of the fittest and a survival of the fattest. Let's see the proof. Since the SPL was formed we've seen the OF trouser all of the money and yet neither can now compete in Europe to any extent because their greed has killed competition in their home leagues. So that model has been a stunning suicess.

There's more than enough money in the game for it to run itself but our greedy clubs all want to keep it to themselves so they can chase the boyhood dream of finishing 6th in the top flight.

So in summary, the money is out there but it's all being pissed away which means we'll fall further and further behind.

Europe has overtaken us.

Even central america has overtaken us.

Asia and Oceana have also overtaken us and now Africa has joined them.

If scientists went to Antartica and trained the seals and penguins I'm pretty sure that within 20 years we'd be struggling to compete with them too.

The solution isn't easy but it needs clubs to come together for the financial betterment of the entire game from grassroots upwards. Clubs should be funding this themselves as a kind of mutual organisation. The SPLFPLFPSPL doesn';t begin to deal with this and to be honest the clubs don't give a shit so we can look forward to continued failure in Europe, continued whining about it, and continued ignoring of the problem.

Agree with some of this.

However, Scotland punched well above its weight for years and years. You would expect these other nations to overtake us as they become more developed and we end up in the natural pecking order of things.

FFS, in the late 60s and early 80s Scotland were ranked in the top 3 countries in the UEFA domestic club rankings - we were that good! (and ironically, the gates in Scotland in the early 80s were at an al time low).

It should also be remembered that gates in Scotland per head of population are far greater than most other nations in Europe. Indeed, average fates in the Scottish First Division are bigger than the average gates in many top divisions in Europe!

However... one reason I think we fail is the culture in Scotland. Too much bevvy, too much obesity, lack of determination, lack of fitness, etc. Nation of wasters!

[zurich_allan]

Maybe Swedish youngsters prefer participating in sport to sitting at home playing computer games or drinking Buckfast in the street.

This is what I find weird. I can speak from a bit of experience on this one as for a few years between about 1998 and 2002-ish I played in an annual exchange tournament with players aged 17 - 21 in both Copenhagen and Malmo one year, and then back in Scotland the next, alternating location each year.

Every year without exception we utterly (and I mean utterly) destroyed the Swedes and Danes on the pitch. It was full teams of 11 and I'm talking scores like 10-2, 15-1 etc.

They were all in general very fit, but technically they were all over the place. Has it really changed that much over the past decade? I don't know, maybe it has, as our game has certainly stagnated. But in general in my personal experience, whilst the top of the Scandinavian game might be decent, there is absolutely no depth at all.

So in conclusion, I'm as puzzled as the rest of you!!

[Barney63]

This is what I find weird. I can speak from a bit of experience on this one as for a few years between about 1998 and 2002-ish I played in an annual exchange tournament with players aged 17 - 21 in both Copenhagen and Malmo one year, and then back in Scotland the next, alternating location each year.

Every year without exception we utterly (and I mean utterly) destroyed the Swedes and Danes on the pitch. It was full teams of 11 and I'm talking scores like 10-2, 15-1 etc.

They were all in general very fit, but technically they were all over the place. Has it really changed that much over the past decade? I don't know, maybe it has, as our game has certainly stagnated. But in general in my personal experience, whilst the top of the Scandinavian game might be decent, there is absolutely no depth at all.

So in conclusion, I'm as puzzled as the rest of you!!

Interesting. I'd hazard a guess that at this level Swedish kids are almost certainly not focusing on football and it will very likely be their second, third or fourth sport after Hockey, Bandy or Handball. For the boys in our family and their mates is either just football and rugby with maybe the odd game of golf to the exclusion of everything else. Don't know about Denmark (which is not in Scandinavia by the way) but I assume it's pretty similar. In Sweden, the serious footballing kids will already be affiliated to the pro club structure or a recognized feeder club - take Henrik Larson for example who was a product of Helsingborgs boys set up. It would have been pretty much taken for granted he'd end his career there, and as he moved throughout his career his motherclub, as they call it, will have received a percentage of any fees.

Glad you gave the Swedes a good hiding!

[Desnold]

Interesting. I'd hazard a guess that at this level Swedish kids are almost certainly not focusing on football and it will very likely be their second, third or fourth sport after Hockey, Bandy or Handball. For the boys in our family and their mates is either just football and rugby with maybe the odd game of golf to the exclusion of everything else. Don't know about Denmark (which is not in Scandinavia by the way) but I assume it's pretty similar. In Sweden, the serious footballing kids will already be affiliated to the pro club structure or a recognized feeder club - take Henrik Larson for example who was a product of Helsingborgs boys set up. It would have been pretty much taken for granted he'd end his career there, and as he moved throughout his career his motherclub, as they call it, will have received a percentage of any fees.

Glad you gave the Swedes a good hiding!

According to Wikipedia (so it nust be right) Scandinavia comprises Norway Sweden and Denmark, this is often confused by the Scandinavian Peninsula which comprises only of Norway and Sweden.

[Robo]

Really good post. Although the one thing I would say is that the underachieving seems much more of a football thing. We have a good number of top sportsmen and women in other fields. Andy Murray, Chris Hoy, to name but two. At the Olympics last year, Scottish athletes won a lot more medals than plenty of other, bigger nations.

However, there are 2 sports where we seem to have declined terribly. One is football and the other is rugby.

I think we notice the decline in Football and Rugby because of their relative popularity compared to the likes of Tennis and Cycling. If you're a Scottish Tennis fan, then you were hardly spoiled for choice before the Murrays came along. But I take your point that there are top Scottish sportsmen and women out there, but I think they are the exceptions rather than the rule.

[Svard svard]

According to Wikipedia (so it nust be right) Scandinavia comprises Norway Sweden and Denmark, this is often confused by the Scandinavian Peninsula which comprises only of Norway and Sweden.

Where's Finland gone?

and IKEA??

[Hambud]

OK how does the OF prevent every other team in the country producing any top class football players capable of competing on the world stage? Not a single world class player from Scotland since the 80's.

The OF doesn't even begin to explain that and frankly it's a red herring - a nice wee bogeyman we can invoke to excuse us from our own failings.

What do you term as world class? I remember Roy Keane suggesting that only Barthez was "world class" in the Manchester United dressing room as he was the only world cup winner.

Going by that measure no Scottish players ever are world class.

However if you are talking Dalgish, Souness being world class then would Paul Lambert, John Collins, Darren Fletcher dare I say it even Gary McCallister could be top class players for all having made an impact at massive European clubs and winning European competitions? I know there is a difference that Dalglish and Souness were the best players in one of the best ever club teams but where is the line?

Mark Wotte who keeps suggesting that it will be 6 years until his work in Scotland bears (bares? who knows) fruit asked just after the Wimbledon final how many scottish footballers would have made it to the top level if they had shown the same hunger/desire/attitidue as Andy Murray? He has devoted his life to the game.

Similar to your point in the Thomas Reilly thread where you mentioned that although Thomas and John had a go and didn't look unnerved in the Newcastle game they need to recognise how far they need to go, to make it as top pro's not top pro's in Scotland, but top pro's anywhere in the world. They need to devote their entire lives to the game, not just a couple of hours a day in training then game on Saturday and pub on saturday night, season finishes and lads holidays to where ever club 18-30 are going at that time.

I think the OF play a major part in that because so many youngsters want to play for one of those two and believe they have made it when they get there, though same could be said for any player that think they've made the big time as they are playing for a club.

[oaksoft]

Mark Wotte who keeps suggesting that it will be 6 years until his work in Scotland bears (bares? who knows) fruit asked just after the Wimbledon final how many scottish footballers would have made it to the top level if they had shown the same hunger/desire/attitidue as Andy Murray? He has devoted his life to the game.

Similar to your point in the Thomas Reilly thread where you mentioned that although Thomas and John had a go and didn't look unnerved in the Newcastle game they need to recognise how far they need to go, to make it as top pro's not top pro's in Scotland, but top pro's anywhere in the world. They need to devote their entire lives to the game, not just a couple of hours a day in training then game on Saturday and pub on saturday night, season finishes and lads holidays to where ever club 18-30 are going at that time.

This is the conundrum. You need a player with potential in terms of talent, the right attitude and then you need a series of coaches who can guide him down the right path to world class. Do we coach players to make the bench at an SFLPPLFPFL club or are we genuinely hand on heart trying to produce world stars? If the latter is true then we're either failing hopelessly at providin g the right path or the kids aren't interested in making the sacrifices.

I strongly believe we have people with the talent - statistically we must have. I think some combination of the wrong attitude and the wrong coaching or being part of the wrong crowd is to blame for the lack of world stars being produced. What else could it possibly be?

One of the Aberdeen starlets who moved to England at 18 last year (?) told the story about how bored he got up here with the lack of training. Went to England and talked about it being night and day.

As for world class? I'd list any player who was good enough to compete with the very best in the world on a regular basis without looking as though they didn't belong there. Lambert and Fletcher are hard to judge because they are playing alongside lesser players who will inevitably make them look bad.

Edited August 2, 2013 by oaksoft

[barney]

Where's Finland gone?

and IKEA??

IKEA is a principality

[Bud the Baker]

Football, despite what the SFPLPFLSPL would have us believe, is rolling in cash because we can still see most clubs in the top division paying thousands of pounds a week to players.

It's certainly the most cash rich sport in the country.

If clubs and the league authority had any moral decency at all they'd stop paying players thousands of pounds a week and pay money into a huge fund which would deal with this problem.

You see the problem here is that I see football as a kind of community where everyone helps each other out for the betterment of everyone. By that I mean truly help each other out - not just tossing £20,000 to an already failing club.

Football however has been allowed to become a "business" despite this being patently absurd. Less a survival of the fittest and a survival of the fattest. Let's see the proof. Since the SPL was formed we've seen the OF trouser all of the money and yet neither can now compete in Europe to any extent because their greed has killed competition in their home leagues. So that model has been a stunning suicess.

There's more than enough money in the game for it to run itself but our greedy clubs all want to keep it to themselves so they can chase the boyhood dream of finishing 6th in the top flight.

So in summary, the money is out there but it's all being pissed away which means we'll fall further and further behind.

Europe has overtaken us.

Even central america has overtaken us.

Asia and Oceana have also overtaken us and now Africa has joined them.

If scientists went to Antartica and trained the seals and penguins I'm pretty sure that within 20 years we'd be struggling to compete with them too.

The solution isn't easy but it needs clubs to come together for the financial betterment of the entire game from grassroots upwards. Clubs should be funding this themselves as a kind of mutual organisation. The SPLFPLFPSPL doesn';t begin to deal with this and to be honest the clubs don't give a shit so we can look forward to continued failure in Europe, continued whining about it, and continued ignoring of the problem.

The OF doesn't even begin to explain that and frankly it's a red herring - a nice wee bogeyman we can invoke to excuse us from our own failings.

[Barney63]

According to Wikipedia (so it nust be right) Scandinavia comprises Norway Sweden and Denmark, this is often confused by the Scandinavian Peninsula which comprises only of Norway and Sweden.

Yeah, I accept there's a bit of a blurring here and I shouldn't try to be such a smartarse... I think though the distinction depends on whether you're referring to the geo-political region or the geography. For example, my Danish chums might if pushed consider themselves as Scandinavian (i.e. mindset) but are clear that Denmark is not part of Scandinavia (geography) as it is clearly on the European landmass - it borders Germany, for example. Generally speaking, the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians I know tend to refer to 'the Nordic countries' or 'Norden' (which includes Denmark). Whatever. Either way, it's a jolly nice part of the world.