div Posted January 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 The more that comes out about the Argentinian consortium the more concerned I become about what we are doing even talking to them to be honest. I sincerely hope the selling consortium know what they are doing ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edinbuddie Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 We are all fans, and want St Mirren to be improving and showing ambtion on and off the field. I can understand that some fans are desperate to move away from the drudgery of a seemingly tired and flat BoD, perennial relegations battles, lack of goals and plenty goals conceded, but, as Poz says above, my question is still 'why'?? I've been using Peru as a comparison rather than Mexico, but the arguments are the same. I was at the EGM when Reg Brealey made his pitch about buying the club. We were a disaster on and off the park, with jumpy debtors and the bank wanting their money (which we had no way of repaying), and used to being in the lower half of the 1st Dvision with the likes of Brechin, Stirling Albion etc. I remember him talking about promotion, getting back into Europe and I specifically remember him saying "let's go and have some fun". After everyone's eyes narrowed and brows furrowed while they tried to remember what that was like, then there was a wave of positivity. While this may seem like unnecessary, verbose pish (Rab ), but the point I'm trying to make is that whatever these types of businessmen are, they're not daft. They know that all football fans are desperate to see their club improve, and will generally buy into any grand, ambitious (or ludicrous) plans that they come up with. I don't think any of us know too much about the Argentinian or the English bid, but both groups will be using (and I do mean using) St Mirren as a vehicle to make themselves some money. If, as a by product of that, it helps St Mirren, then we're all happy. But make no mistake that neither of these groups will give a monkeys about St Mirren, our team, our history, the fans or what happens to us after we cease to be of any use to them. As a final point, I always the remember a story Dave Bassett told about Charles Green when Green had been brought in to manage the business side at Sheffield United. Walking down the tunnel one day, Green told Bassett "we'd grow potatoes out there if made us more money than playing football". That's a businessman's mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windae cleaner Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I'm surprised this lot are even being entertained I know the BOD want out and want a wee nest egg which they are due to be fair But this bid is the worst one yet what i know about My fear is they would sell out after a year or 2 to a certain lot down the M8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Motherwell had all but committed to the fan ownership model though. We, well we know the story. I took one quick look at another Chilean club, Universidad, and the in/out numbers aren't far off in season 12/13 & 11/12. There are a number of loans, but then Italian clubs also utilise a lot of loans. The transfermrket (not a typo) site will let you see numbers. A club can sign and move on as many players as it wants. To compare the numbers of ins and outs at one club to those at a club moving players in and out for reasons of tax avoidance is to (deliberately?) miss the point entirely. I have no idea why you have your head buried firmly in the sand here. If St Mirren starts going down the route of tax avoidance, you need only look at Castle Greyskull to send how it will end up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Monkey Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 If St Mirren starts going down the route of tax avoidance, you need only look at Castle Greyskull to send how it will end up. You mean we'd end up getting off incredibly lightly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 A club can sign and move on as many players as it wants. To compare the numbers of ins and outs at one club to those at a club moving players in and out for reasons of tax avoidance is to (deliberately?) miss the point entirely. I have no idea why you have your head buried firmly in the sand here. If St Mirren starts going down the route of tax avoidance, you need only look at Castle Greyskull to send how it will end up. I just don't see how the SFA, SPFL would allow the club to shift players in short spaces of time without investigating us. Can you even confirm a signing without registration, work permits or international clearance? Chilean football appears to be somewhere that makes that mode of operation a lot easier. Maybe they will showcase players here, perhaps they are aware of what they can or can't do. Heck, we owed Barr money and "by coincidence" Jim Dick moved to Ayr Utd. HMRC are also a lot tighter on football now, they'd notice non-payment. Do we actually know Rangers moved players for tax avoidance whilst Universidad didn't? The interview I found asked Pini about a couple of players, not 10 or 20. Oh and if my head was in the sand, would I be doing so much research or asking so many questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smfcbuddie Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I find it incredible that there has been virtually no communication from the BoD and little by way of action in relation to improving the playing side. Something is clearly happening in the background but the silence is a bit ominous. I no longer know whether to trust the BoD or just assume the worst. In either case it seems we as fans are not able to influence anything at present. Oh for those halcyon days when Coughlin, Hendrie, Fitzy et al were in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBud Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 A club can sign and move on as many players as it wants. To compare the numbers of ins and outs at one club to those at a club moving players in and out for reasons of tax avoidance is to (deliberately?) miss the point entirely. I have no idea why you have your head buried firmly in the sand here. If St Mirren starts going down the route of tax avoidance, you need only look at Castle Greyskull to send how it will end up. Not to be too pedantic but there is a world of difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Strictly speaking only tax evasion is illegal whereas tax avoidance is generally taking advantage of "loopholes" to pay less tax. With reference to Greyskull in regards to EBT's, at the moment it is only being seen as avoidance and not evasion, no matter how unpallatable, thus why they won their case, that could change at appeal right enough. Not paying the PAYE/NIC due to lack of funds is what took Rangers out. I am not suggesting, at any point, that avoidance is OK and a route we should pursue!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddie-Boy Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I am hearing that the club has been sold and our new owners will take over at some point this week. The more that comes out about the Argentinian consortium the more concerned I become about what we are doing even talking to them to be honest. The title for this topic is 'CLUB SOLD...' So has the club been sold - or are we just talking to them now? Edited January 15, 2015 by Buddie-Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I sincerely hope the selling consortium know what they are doing ! Indeed. It seems that hope is all we have in this regard at present, as there is absolutely nothing more tangible to go on. I have to say that I have been surprised (well, perhaps 'surprised' isn't really the appropriate word) that the BoD didn't issue anything by way of a response ot the English consortium's 'statement' that you reproduced on here. Do they not wish to dignify it with a response? That is perhaps a reasonable line to take to some degree, however, you'd have to think they'd be seeking a right to reply on reputational grounds if nothing else. After all, they are still trying to conduct a business transaction with potential buyers, whomsoever they may or may not be. In common with others, I have huge concern as to the future wellbeing of the club at the moment. I desperately want to have faith in the current custodians in terms of them securing the best outcome, but they have conflicting motivation, and with every passing day, an element of desperation seems to be entering the equation. With desperation comes carelessness. It might well be the case that they will stand accused more of ommision than commision should they sell up to the wrong people, but that will be little comfort as we watch the club we love hurtling round the u-bend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luther G. Presley Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I don't know what everyone is worrying about, Gilmour has said all along that he would only sell to football people and people who only had the clubs best interests at heart, so there is no way he would even consider a consortium like this, or is he just full of shit. When's that statue going up btw! Edited January 15, 2015 by Luther G. Presley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapsalmon Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Devils advocate here, pini did t go in and ruin a solvent club, he bought a club either from liquidation or admin, whatever bankruptcy is in chile. Are they solvent now? He got them promotion to the top league and to a national cup final which they had never won. In the interview the guy says the fans loved it at first then it went sour due to things like giving more of the stadium to opposition fans. Something we and others do here anyway when there is money to be made. Perhaps that's why this rangers mob in Chile are now solvent? Is the moving players on without playing out of the ordinary in south America? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Fitzy Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 It seems to me they are quite shrewd businessmen. There is a big difference between having been investigated for tax evasion and being found guilty of it. As far as I can see, they haven't broken any laws. They saved the club from liquidation, reached a cup semi final and were challenging for the league title(which they have never won before). Yes they seem to have made themselves some money from let's call it "bending the rules of the transfer market", but it doesn't say anywhere that they actually broke any of these rules. With regards to the Herald story/interview. BOD's are always going to have fans disgruntled by them. Our fans are a perfect example of this. Feck sake, we are constantly moaning about them. I am prepared to trust our BOD to do the right thing and if they think the Argie's are right for us, then I'll give them my 100% backing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Is the moving players on without playing out of the ordinary in south America? Frank McGarvey went from St Mirren to Celtic via Liverpool - he never played a first team game for the scousers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Monkey Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I post this link appreciating full well that no two clubs or scenarios are ever the same in football. However, Football365 has today run this on its Mediawatch section: How Did That Go?It's one year to the day since Nicola Cortese left Southampton. Here's how the papers reported the executive chairman's exit...'SAINTS IN TURMOIL ... Southampton were plunged into chaos last night after chairman Nicola Cortese quit' - the Daily Star.'MELTDOWN! ... 'Southampton are in meltdown after executive chairman Nicola Cortese quit the club amid a bitter dispute with owner Katharina Liebherr' - the Daily Mail.'REVEALED: Woman at centre of Southampton nightmare ... This is the woman at the centre of the Southampton crisis that could send the club spiralling into meltdown' - The Sun.And Mediawatch's personal favourite: 'Liebherr the dream wrecker! How £3bn heiress who doesn't like football ousted the man who made Saints fans believe again' - MailOnline.It all looks a tad like an overreaction with Saints riding high in third 12 months later. http://www.football365.com/mediawatch/9645829/Mediawatch Of course, that emphatically doesn't mean that the Argie bid would deliver the same success to us, but it does show that a huge amount of rhetoric and exaggeration is thrown around, by fans and in the media, at such a hugely emotive time. While our board has made mistakes over the years, these have been hugely outweighed by the overall success they have achieved for our club - and what football club's board hasn't made mistakes? They have continually and demonstrably acted in our best interests, and I genuinely still have faith in the board to do the same again. What I'm saying is, I have no idea if the Argentinian bid is the best for our club, and, while we lack any concrete information about the nature of their bid, I think we are all right to err on the side of caution. But I genuinely do trust the selling consortium to make the right call for our club. I really do. Fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted January 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 The title for this topic is 'CLUB SOLD...' So has the club been sold - or are we just talking to them now? The title for this topic is 'CLUB SOLD...' So has the club been sold - or are we just talking to them now? The information I got on Sunday was that a deal to sell the club had been agreed and would be completed this week. Not heard anything since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Not to be too pedantic but there is a world of difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Strictly speaking only tax evasion is illegal whereas tax avoidance is generally taking advantage of "loopholes" to pay less tax. With reference to Greyskull in regards to EBT's, at the moment it is only being seen as avoidance and not evasion, no matter how unpallatable, thus why they won their case, that could change at appeal right enough. Not paying the PAYE/NIC due to lack of funds is what took Rangers out. I am not suggesting, at any point, that avoidance is OK and a route we should pursue!! Also, not to be too pedantic, but... Rangers admitted and were found guilty and punished for several cases of tax evasion. There is an ongoing appeal against the quaint majority decision that has temporarily let the deid club off in SOME of their EBT cases. The appeal is being pursued vigorously by HMRC. The not paying thing was just another nail in the coffin. What took Rangers out was Murray trying to run them on money he never had (our money), flogging it off to Whyte for a £1.00 , who then hoped to run it.. till Supersalary got them beat in europe by two wee diddy clubs - and the pot was then, tragically, empty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyg Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 "They had a look about the stadium today and asked for some information. They also had a look at Ralston [the club's training ground] and watched an under-20s game yesterday." "There is nothing concrete as far as we're concerned. I wish it was" I think this quote from Bryan McAusland a month ago says it all , there was no concrete offer then but there is now ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Poz. I acknowledge and echo your fears but, at the end of the day, all we can do is hope. Its in our hands because if we don't fund them they'll do one! What would it achieve to distance ourselves from the club? Nose and face. We need to be in a position to take the reins if the horse bolts but I don't believe it's in our best interest to boycott long term as that is a recipe for definite demise and we would be held, at least in part, responsible for ex Saint Mirren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Poz. I acknowledge and echo your fears but, at the end of the day, all we can do is hope. What would it achieve to distance ourselves from the club? Nose and face. We need to be in a position to take the reins if the horse bolts but I don't believe it's in our best interest to boycott long term as that is a recipe for definite demise and we would be held, at least in part, responsible for ex Saint Mirren. who said boycott? were not sevco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBud Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Also, not to be too pedantic, but... Rangers admitted and were found guilty and punished for several cases of tax evasion. There is an ongoing appeal against the quaint majority decision that has temporarily let the deid club off in SOME of their EBT cases. The appeal is being pursued vigorously by HMRC. The not paying thing was just another nail in the coffin. mers ents did Rang What took Rangers out was Murray trying to run them on money he never had (our money), flogging it off to Whyte for a £1.00 , who then hoped to run it.. till Supersalary got them beat in europe by two wee diddy clubs - and the pot was then, tragically, empty. What punishments did Rangers receive for Tax Evasion ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garzo Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 The information I got on Sunday was that a deal to sell the club had been agreed and would be completed this week. Not heard anything since. is that working week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted January 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 is that working week? I'm not sure that the day it finally goes through is really that important in the grand scheme of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I'm not sure that the day it finally goes through is really that important in the grand scheme of things. They'll only sell to the Argentinians on a day with a 'y' in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 What punishments did Rangers receive for Tax Evasion ?? Never heard of the Wee Tax Case, WeeBud? Fined £2.87m. Admitted and accepted by Rangers - of course the club went into liquidation and (like many another bill) it remained unpaid. Here's a long-winded rant about it. http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/crystal-myth-the-untold-story-of-the-wee-tax-case/ or googleyour own. It's out there. Ignored by the Scottish Press, naturally... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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