Should We Stay Or Should We Go

[salmonbuddie]

Touché.

Only if he prints where it's been published.

ps - it hasn't, yet...

[salmonbuddie]

AKA the minority!

;)

Didn't have you down as a Thatcher supporter, but, fair enough, if that's you declaring where you stand, good for you, now we know for sure.

And it was never a minority in Scotland against Thatcher. Ever.

[BuddieinEK]

Didn't have you down as a Thatcher supporter, but, fair enough, if that's you declaring where you stand, good for you, now we know for sure.

And it was never a minority in Scotland against Thatcher. Ever.

I was referring to the latter part of your post, not the former.

[oaksoft]

He wouldn't be the first.................

He wont be the last.....

[oaksoft]

Ooft setting up the goals now.

It's policies that matter, not what politician you kiss up to. You'd have known that if you weren't a buckled Natsi.

We get it.

Your wife f**ked an SNP member and then left you for him.

Now you have an agenda against the SNP as a direct result.

We get it. We really do.

[salmonbuddie]

I was referring to the latter part of your post, not the former.

And the indy ref, not the GE, where a clear majority voted for pro-indy parties.

[saintnextlifetime]

From the people l have spoken to , even the moderates, they all get a bit anti if you mention Europe . The few that have said they would vote yes to Europe tend to be youngsters that have grown up not knowing anything else. .

So here is my question . Sturgeon has said that if Scotland vote yes and the RUK vote no, she would view that as a mandate for another Indy Referendum but what if Scotland vote NO and the RUK vote yes , would she also see that as a mandate for yet another Indy vote. .

However, personally I don't think the Uk will be leaving Europe anytime soon, no matter the vote in June. .

[Ayrshire Saints]

It will be up to the rest of Europe wheter the UK leaves or not.

If it's a leave vote Cameron will use that as a "mandate" to try to force the other EU member states into agreeing to more concessions on a "look the people of the UK really aren't kidding" basis. It will then be the EU member states call and if it gets to that stage it's fairly obvious Cameron (and the UK) will be told to GTF. I can then see Cameron trying to use the "Europe's kicking us out" line to try to save his / the Tories own skin. Either way this is going to blow the Tory party apart and for that reason alone I really don't care what way the vote goes. I have no strong opinion either way.

We keep hearing it's an "in / out" referendum but when are we going to see the ballot question and when will we get told if leave really means leave ?

[davidg]

BORIS JOHNSON

• "Be brave"
• "Not to refer all decisions to someone else"
• "Opportunity for self rule"
• "We'll hear a lot in the coming weeks about the risks, risks to the economy"
• "They are likely to be hugely exaggerated"
• "This is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to vote for real change"

This is the same guy who told us Scots the opposite of all above.

Edited February 22, 2016 by davidg

[Stuart Dickson]

From the people l have spoken to , even the moderates, they all get a bit anti if you mention Europe . The few that have said they would vote yes to Europe tend to be youngsters that have grown up not knowing anything else. .

So here is my question . Sturgeon has said that if Scotland vote yes and the RUK vote no, she would view that as a mandate for another Indy Referendum but what if Scotland vote NO and the RUK vote yes , would she also see that as a mandate for yet another Indy vote. .

However, personally I don't think the Uk will be leaving Europe anytime soon, no matter the vote in June. .

I agree with your last sentence and I believe so do many of the Tory grandee's who will be campaigning for us to vote out. I've said it before on here but I think that Cameron is playing a clever game. He's in his last term in office. He's negotiating with Europe looking for a better deal. He's on their side - he wants us to stay.....but look at all the pressure he's getting from home. Look at all the pressure his own party are putting on him and look at what the electorate are saying. The more this goes on the more the EU will offer concessions in a bid to keep the UK in because if the UK was to leave it would be pretty much game over for the EU. It's akin to what we saw in the Indy Ref - except Salmond didn't have a brain in his head. The closer the opinion polls got the more concessions appeared to be granted - typically through Gordon Brown.

I've been on the fence in general over this. I do believe we need more power to set out own laws, that we should be able to manage our welfare system without interference, and that we should be able to maintain complete control of our borders and on immigration - even from the EU. However I also recognise the importance of the EU as our defence and trading partners and I accept that when sitting at the table with the US, Russia, and China we're far more powerful as a block than we are as a stand alone unit. However in the last few days I've become way more tempted to vote out if just to watch the SNP cluster f**k telling the Scottish Electorate that we're tired of Westminster telling us what to do, and that we'd much rather that France, Germany, Italy and Spain told us what to do instead. I'd especially enjoy seeing them try to do this whilst suggesting we won't adopt the Euro and that somehow we'll continue to trade in Sterling. Frankly I think that would be the end of the SNP if not the independence movement.

[flyingscot]

BORIS JOHNSON

• "Be brave"
• "Not to refer all decisions to someone else"
• "Opportunity for self rule"
• "We'll hear a lot in the coming weeks about the risks, risks to the economy"
• "They are likely to be hugely exaggerated"
• "This is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to vote for real change"

This is the same guy who told us Scots the opposite of all above.

Yeah it is quite bizarre. We have the Tory party campaigning for independence and the SNP campaigning for political and social union!

[smcc]

Not according to their 2016 Holyrood Election manifesto. According to that they aren't campaigning for Home Rule.

Not at the present time, but their long term aim is an independent Scotland. As usual, you miss the point.

[oaksoft]

Did I not already ask that question?

No that would have been me who asked it.

[Drew]

I'm sick of hacks etc referring to B. Johnson only as 'Boris', as though we are all in a f**king Winnie the Pooh story.

[salmonbuddie]

I'm sick of hacks etc referring to B. Johnson only as 'Boris', as though we are all in a f**king Winnie the Pooh story.

I think 'BoJos' works quite well. In so many ways...

[oaksoft]

I'm sick of hacks etc referring to B. Johnson only as 'Boris', as though we are all in a f**king Winnie the Pooh story.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Farage on C4 news just there repeating saying he wants to be independent.

[FTOF]

I'm sick of hacks etc referring to B. Johnson only as 'Boris', as though we are all in a f**king Winnie the Pooh story.

Shut it Eeyore.

[zurich_allan]

For what it's worth, I think it's more important to stay within the EU rather than be an external State to it; particularly because it is inevitable that we would want to retain at least some links whether as a member of the EFTA or through bilateral arrangements. The problem is that under those arrangements you are subject to the rules and regulations created by the EU, yet have very little if any input into how those rules and regulations are framed. The other option would be to not have such agreements in place and simply trade, but by doing that you leave the country open potentially to numerically uncertain, but certainly increased, levels of import and export taxation.

There are a lot of both positives and negatives to being a Member State, and I'm going to be doing some writing on the subject in the near future - undecided as to whether or not to make it published work or just to put it on my blog, will see how it looks when written. I'll probably cover the issues of: Trade laws, economics & taxation, employment laws, free movement, terrorism & counterterrorism, criminal justice, democracy, education, infrastructure, and global politics. Possibly more, that's just off the top of my head.

[saintnextlifetime]

I think it boils down to one thing ; do you want to live in a country/superstate called Europe . That means you surrender your right to be British/Scottish and cow down to being run from Berlin. .

Just before one makes ones decision , also worth remembering perhaps, that last century , most of us would have had forebears who fought in WWl and WWll in order to save us from the type of European/German domination that has now so insidiously been heaped upon us. .

Norway , a country that was actually occupied by Germany during the war, obviously values their sovereignty more than we do. .

[zurich_allan]

I think it boils down to one thing ; do you want to live in a country/superstate called Europe . That means you surrender your right to be British/Scottish and cow down to being run from Berlin. .

Just before one makes ones decision , also worth remembering perhaps, that last century , most of us would have had forebears who fought in WWl and WWll in order to save us from the type of European/German domination that has now so insidiously been heaped upon us. .

Norway , a country that was actually occupied by Germany during the war, obviously values their sovereignty more than we do. .

No, it most certainly does not boil down to just that, it's a very shallow, surface level argument. It is a valid point, but only one of dozens of genuinely valid issues that directly and fundamentally affect people relating to EU membership.

[saintnextlifetime]

No, it most certainly does not boil down to just that, it's a very shallow, surface level argument. It is a valid point, but only one of dozens of genuinely valid issues that directly and fundamentally affect people relating to EU membership.

In fairness, that is your opinion , Allan . In my opinion , it isn't valid to surrender ones sovereignty for any , and I do mean any , of that other brick-a-brac. It just doesn't enter into it .

Worth remembering that , Britain was famous for trading with the world . These disorganised Europeans were famous for squabbling amongst themselves whist building f**ken butter mountains . Also worth remembering that Scotland used to have a massive fishing industry that has now been decimated to the point of virtual extinction by these same badly organised Europeans who in relative terms , only found democracy in fairly recent times which is probably why , the top tier of Europe is a non-elected , non-democratic executive. .

[Ayrshire Saints]

I think it boils down to one thing ; do you want to live in a country/superstate called Europe . That means you surrender your right to be British/Scottish and cow down to being run from Berlin. .

Just before one makes ones decision , also worth remembering perhaps, that last century , most of us would have had forebears who fought in WWl and WWll in order to save us from the type of European/German domination that has now so insidiously been heaped upon us. .

Norway , a country that was actually occupied by Germany during the war, obviously values their sovereignty more than we do. .

We have been in the EU for 40 odd years and it hasn't stopped us feeling British / Scottish. Are you seriously saying you feel European because we are a member of the EU . Germans are still German, French are still French. What makes us as a nation so insecure that you think otherwise.

I'd love to know on a personal day-to-day basis what the EU is heaping upon you that's so insidious.

[Ayrshire Saints]

In fairness, that is your opinion , Allan . In my opinion , it isn't valid to surrender ones sovereignty for any , and I do mean any , of that other brick-a-brac. It just doesn't enter into it .

Worth remembering that , Britain was famous for trading with the world . These disorganised Europeans were famous for squabbling amongst themselves whist building f**ken butter mountains . Also worth remembering that Scotland used to have a massive fishing industry that has now been decimated to the point of virtual extinction by these same badly organised Europeans who in relative terms , only found democracy in fairly recent times which is probably why , the top tier of Europe is a non-elected , non-democratic executive. .

My whole family are fishermen for generations.

The EU regs that the Scottish fishermen claim are killing their livelyhood apply just the same to the Spanish / French / Portugese boats that they claim are responsible for killing their livelyhood. Fishermen (trawlermen in particular) are by definition greedy buggers who have zero interest in preserving the industry. Their sole aim is to catch as much fish as they can to make as much money as they can and without legislation there would be no fish left in the sea. The quota system is essential to preserve stocks. We don't need to be catching more than we currently do to meet demand there just isn't a need for massively increased quota's. Fishing technology has become too good and hence trawlers can meet their quotas in far less time than before despite decreased stocks. So by being able to meet quotas faster they are hence having to spend less days at sea. Discard is a disgrace and thankfully the EU are now starting to tackle the issue. Dumping of dead fish is a nonsense however as stated before the greed of some fishermen will no doubt lead them to try to abuse any discard regulation to make more profit so it needs to be thought through and that will take time.

Some areas of the industry in Scotland are thriving especially creel fishing and hand diving with it's premium prices and lack of by-catch but it's hard work in comparison to trawling and hence isn't so attractive to someone looking to make a quick buck.

[2becks]

I think the most important thing that has to be considered is ...

can we stay in Eurovision?

If we can't then we should vote to get out of the EU.

Given that Israel and Australia take part, and many other non-EU countries too I think your annual camp night-in is safe however we vote.