Punt Or Keep?

[FTOF]

Give him thommo's wage

That certainly won't help.

A championship team has already offered double that.

I can only imagine that St.J will offer even more.

P.S. Thommo is on a lot less than people think.

[kevo_smfc]

Punt or keep OR lose

Looks like we are going to lose Watson and at some point Mallan. Goodwin, Thommo will be let go, Clarkson and Shanks will head away to their real clubs.

Not sure if Quinn is on a deal for next year?

But it looks like Rae has a real task on his hands getting at least 1/2 a team together over the summer. (That's not counting guys he might also let go)

Personally I would love us to offer Watson a better deal than St. J's do and keep him (let's stop the penny pinching and invest for a future in the Premiership - there will be better scope in the budget with Goodwin and Thommo away anyway). It is not a good idea letting your best player go, when he is young and mature, and we are not stuck on giving him away for free; if we have ambition.

Also hope we can get Shanks back and sign someone like Dunfermline's 30 goal striker - surely he could get 15 with us in this higher division?)

Already noticed other clubs have their plans in place (e.g.Dundee signed 2 Inverness players & another) Hope we have some pre-contract signings in place?

If Rae does as well as he did in the next transfer window and next season as he did in January and from then on - He is a superhero! He has changed a team who were heading for relegation into a team that would have made the play-offs if he had been in place earlier. (The need was clearly obvious much earlier too)

Quinns deal runs to end of season.

Sometimes its not all about money and rather ambition. St Johnstone are a top 6 club every season and have competed in europe the last couple of seasons. Watsons performances also i would imagine merit interest from down south.

Unfortunately, with Dunfermline already promoted and playing at same level as us next season i cant see us any better a proposition for the lad. There is already rumoured interest from down south for him, which imo is a stronger lure. 30 goals a season certainly doesnt go unnoticed.

Until it is completely mathematical that we are safe, then the board will not lay out a plan of spend for next season.

[Sweeper07]

Quotes from Brain-soft

In fairness sweeper is talking about spending more than we are bringing in.

He specifically criticised TC for using the phrase "spend what we bring in and not a penny more".

Clearly you are arithmetically challenged so I will spell it out for you - spending more than you are bringing in is financial mismanagement, will leave us in debt and debt risks the future of our club.

I'm sorry but I thought literally everyone understood that Basic Arithmetic principle

Congratulations on the most meaningless pile of vague pseudo-corporate bollox ever posted on this forum.

Business is VERY simple and it doesn't need a cut and paste from Wiki.

We have income and outgoings. If your income is more than your outgoings then you have a business.

If your outgoings are more than your income then your business goes bust.

To buy better players (which we ALL want), we need more income or reduced outgoings.

So rather than bashing your gums pretending to know how to run a business why not simply give some examples of how to do either of those two things.

Congratulations on the most meaningless pile of vague pseudo-corporate bollox ever posted on this forum.

Business is VERY simple and it doesn't need a cut and paste from Wiki.

We have income and outgoings. If your income is more than your outgoings then you have a business.

If your outgoings are more than your income then your business goes bust.

So rather than bashing your gums pretending to know how to run a business why not simply give some examples of how to do either of those two things.

Response

It's great reading your stuff - best laugh I 've had in a long time.

1. You too are an amazing conjurer who reads between the lines; stuff which just isn't there - this time I am supposedly talking about spending more than we bring in. (Now that is a clever trick) Last time with your pal "I was only looking for shortterm gain" (Try reading the words, not what you imagine them to mean) Presumption is your other gift - my Arithmetic skills are greatly valued.

2. You should spend a penny yourself. So if we go one penny into debt ever it is a disaster. MMMM this pseudo business bollox must not include every having any debt. Is that what happens in businesses. (Wonder how the banks survive and successful businesses grow? - even professional football clubs too - yes some get it wrong, but our BOD have got it wrong penny pinching too - back to the level of speculation written about earlier and the FACT that it is about much more than just the finance)

3. I have no doubt your Arithmetic and Business skills are non-league compared to mine. I run and have improved a number of big businesses - I am not surprised people copy successful business model information onto wiki - everything is on there, but I doubt you will find it with my words - cause I never got it there. I chose one of the simplest models as an example, cause I did not want to bamboozle folk with little business understanding - I obviously didn't make it simple enough though. Your basic model is the simplest I have ever seen - but completely naive though)

4. Business is that simple - why ain't you a millionaire? (I can assure you that you won't ever be, unless you win the lottery) Then you could buy St. Mirren and bring in new penny pinching regimes - Then we could be in League 2 in no time at all.

5. Players can come for free when they are out of contract - so we don't only have the option of buying better players.

-

6. Business models provide details of; how to, what to put in place etc. So instead of being stuck in a mentality that our income is only so much, it can investigate good ways of bringing in more money - things like share issues & even Tony's unpopular giving up the stand etc. (Just in case you cannot grasp a realistic example)

7. Though I have no plans of bringing in financial mismanagement - I suspect a lot of fans feel that is what we have had at times with the poor BOD decisions that I mentioned earlier - What I am speaking about should rid us of that, not bring it in.

8. You should never presume everyone understood anything. Many people are born with all kinds of challenges - let's not make light of those people. But for You business is only about money and balancing the books - I can assure you there is a lot more to it than that, and every successful business does not work by following your Basic Arithmetic principle in isolation to many other highly significant matters. I did previously list areas, but you think its bollox and your basic model is where you are stuck - I have to give some credit to the Board - at least there are some business practices being implemented at a far higher level that you have to offer!

Have a good week.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Sweeper07

[Sweeper07]

Quinns deal runs to end of season.

Sometimes its not all about money and rather ambition. St Johnstone are a top 6 club every season and have competed in europe the last couple of seasons. Watsons performances also i would imagine merit interest from down south.

Unfortunately, with Dunfermline already promoted and playing at same level as us next season i cant see us any better a proposition for the lad. There is already rumoured interest from down south for him, which imo is a stronger lure. 30 goals a season certainly doesnt go unnoticed.

Until it is completely mathematical that we are safe, then the board will not lay out a plan of spend for next season.

Quinns deal runs to end of season.

Sometimes its not all about money and rather ambition. St Johnstone are a top 6 club every season and have competed in europe the last couple of seasons. Watsons performances also i would imagine merit interest from down south.

Unfortunately, with Dunfermline already promoted and playing at same level as us next season i cant see us any better a proposition for the lad. There is already rumoured interest from down south for him, which imo is a stronger lure. 30 goals a season certainly doesnt go unnoticed.

Until it is completely mathematical that we are safe, then the board will not lay out a plan of spend for next season.

Thanks!!! But surely we are a better team for the lad than Dunfermline - we managed to beat them 4 v 0 and astonishingly it was while Murray was in charge.

[insaintee]

Congratulations on the most meaningless pile of vague pseudo-corporate bollox te from Wiki.

We have income and outgoings. If your income is more than your outgoings then you have a business.

If your outgoings are more than your income then your business goes bust.

To buy better players (which we ALL want), we need more income or reduced outgoings.

So rather than bashing your gums pretending to know how to run a business why not simply give some examples of how to do either of those two things.

I read your thesis

[Sonny]

To be fair I think the journey into debt came much later which was a combination of transfers, wages and introducing seats plus the Caley stand. In hindsight we should have just stuck in benches for away fans similar to Morton, Clydebank and even Aberdeen.

The money spent on the transfers on Somner and Zico came directly from the money we received for McGarvey to Liverpool. Fitzy went at the same time to Bristol.

The journey into debt accelerated at the end of the 80s when in one season we signed Black (£70k),Gunni (£160k), Manley (£250k), Wishart (£285k), Stickroth (£400k)! Mental stuff when considered now. Of course we also sold several players for crazy money that year Ian Cameron (£215k), Brian Hamilton (£285k), Neil Cooper (£30k) etc. And a year later we were signing players like Steve Archibald and Victor the Spanish captain! Heady days indeed but the start of the decline.

[The Original 59er]

Sonny Posted Yesterday, 20:11

The journey into debt accelerated at the end of the 80s when in one season we signed Black (£70k),Gunni (£160k), Manley (£250k), Wishart (£285k), Stickroth (£400k)! Mental stuff when considered now. Of course we also sold several players for crazy money that year Ian Cameron (£215k), Brian Hamilton (£285k), Neil Cooper (£30k) etc. And a year later we were signing players like Steve Archibald and Victor the Spanish captain! Heady days indeed but the start of the decline.

Further exacerbated by Bosman which killed it for teams like Saints who depended on the chance to take in a player from a lower league or team and let them develop a liitle then sell them up the tree a bit, or to a club in England.

That has gone and the player, more particularly their agents now dictate the terms, when they will leave, who they will go to and for how much, leaving teams like Saints with only a youth set-up to hopefully bring on the odd player who might make the grade.

[Sonny]

A year after Archibald and Munoz (91) we were paying players' wages of £100,000 per week and were £1million pounds in debt. We were still to put seats in the West bank and build the Caledonia Stand and seat the North Stand. By 94 we were nearly £2million in debt. We were in dire straights before Bosman (95). It would not have been so bad if we had been in the black before Bosman stopped the transfer market overnight (for wee Scottish clubs anyway). Our mess of a financial situation led to the Brealey attempted takeover in 97. But thanks goodness SG & Co took over and stabilised us as well as took us to where we are today. And we do not want repeats of the madness of the early 90's

[oaksoft]

I read your thesis

I'd have been more impressed if you said you could understand it.

[oaksoft]

Quotes from Brain-soft

In fairness sweeper is talking about spending more than we are bringing in.

He specifically criticised TC for using the phrase "spend what we bring in and not a penny more".

Clearly you are arithmetically challenged so I will spell it out for you - spending more than you are bringing in is financial mismanagement, will leave us in debt and debt risks the future of our club.

I'm sorry but I thought literally everyone understood that Basic Arithmetic principle

Congratulations on the most meaningless pile of vague pseudo-corporate bollox ever posted on this forum.

Business is VERY simple and it doesn't need a cut and paste from Wiki.

We have income and outgoings. If your income is more than your outgoings then you have a business.

If your outgoings are more than your income then your business goes bust.

To buy better players (which we ALL want), we need more income or reduced outgoings.

So rather than bashing your gums pretending to know how to run a business why not simply give some examples of how to do either of those two things.

Congratulations on the most meaningless pile of vague pseudo-corporate bollox ever posted on this forum.

Business is VERY simple and it doesn't need a cut and paste from Wiki.

We have income and outgoings. If your income is more than your outgoings then you have a business.

If your outgoings are more than your income then your business goes bust.

So rather than bashing your gums pretending to know how to run a business why not simply give some examples of how to do either of those two things.

Response

It's great reading your stuff - best laugh I 've had in a long time.

1. You too are an amazing conjurer who reads between the lines; stuff which just isn't there - this time I am supposedly talking about spending more than we bring in. (Now that is a clever trick) Last time with your pal "I was only looking for shortterm gain" (Try reading the words, not what you imagine them to mean) Presumption is your other gift - my Arithmetic skills are greatly valued.

2. You should spend a penny yourself. So if we go one penny into debt ever it is a disaster. MMMM this pseudo business bollox must not include every having any debt. Is that what happens in businesses. (Wonder how the banks survive and successful businesses grow? - even professional football clubs too - yes some get it wrong, but our BOD have got it wrong penny pinching too - back to the level of speculation written about earlier and the FACT that it is about much more than just the finance)

3. I have no doubt your Arithmetic and Business skills are non-league compared to mine. I run and have improved a number of big businesses - I am not surprised people copy successful business model information onto wiki - everything is on there, but I doubt you will find it with my words - cause I never got it there. I chose one of the simplest models as an example, cause I did not want to bamboozle folk with little business understanding - I obviously didn't make it simple enough though. Your basic model is the simplest I have ever seen - but completely naive though)

4. Business is that simple - why ain't you a millionaire? (I can assure you that you won't ever be, unless you win the lottery) Then you could buy St. Mirren and bring in new penny pinching regimes - Then we could be in League 2 in no time at all.

5. Players can come for free when they are out of contract - so we don't only have the option of buying better players.

-

6. Business models provide details of; how to, what to put in place etc. So instead of being stuck in a mentality that our income is only so much, it can investigate good ways of bringing in more money - things like share issues & even Tony's unpopular giving up the stand etc. (Just in case you cannot grasp a realistic example)

7. Though I have no plans of bringing in financial mismanagement - I suspect a lot of fans feel that is what we have had at times with the poor BOD decisions that I mentioned earlier - What I am speaking about should rid us of that, not bring it in.

8. You should never presume everyone understood anything. Many people are born with all kinds of challenges - let's not make light of those people. But for You business is only about money and balancing the books - I can assure you there is a lot more to it than that, and every successful business does not work by following your Basic Arithmetic principle in isolation to many other highly significant matters. I did previously list areas, but you think its bollox and your basic model is where you are stuck - I have to give some credit to the Board - at least there are some business practices being implemented at a far higher level that you have to offer!

Have a good week.

Wow. Just wow.

Quality rant.

All of it pretty much alcohol fuelled garbage.

TBH I doubt very much that you run ANY large company but it simple;y wouldn't surprise me.

Large companies are stuffed with "leaders" who have never started their own company and so lack basic business nous.

They'll flash their Harvard Business School lecture notes though as credentials.

Let me put this in terms you might understand.

You can dress things in all the corporate-speak you like. You can use phrases like investment, but if at the end of the year your income is less than your outgoings then your business is f**ked. End of story.

You say that most businesses don't follow this simple model.

I agree.

Check the High Street.

Compare it with just 50 years ago.

How many big names are still here?

If you like we can then move onto talking about why the Pharmaceutical industry is struggling and why they have ditched the simple business model for one of endless buy-outs, mergers and redundancies as a way of making money. We can maybe talk about why that approach is killing the industry.

Edited April 8, 2016 by oaksoft

[pod]

A year after Archibald and Munoz (91) we were paying players' wages of £100,000 per week and were £1million pounds in debt. We were still to put seats in the West bank and build the Caledonia Stand and seat the North Stand. By 94 we were nearly £2million in debt. We were in dire straights before Bosman (95). It would not have been so bad if we had been in the black before Bosman stopped the transfer market overnight (for wee Scottish clubs anyway). Our mess of a financial situation led to the Brealey attempted takeover in 97. But thanks goodness SG & Co took over and stabilised us as well as took us to where we are today. And we do not want repeats of the madness of the early 90's

Hope that's the entire team your talking about.

[shull]

Hay, Baillie, Beattie, Reid, Charnley and Fanny L.O.

FFS

[shull]

FFS again.

Edited April 8, 2016 by shull

[norrie82]

Yeah top cat your not going to go anywhere with a small time attitude. We need to give Alex every opportunity to be successful next year. If we lose that ambition to get back up with the big teams like Hamilton, St.Johnstone, Inverness and Killie then we may as well accept championship football for the next decade and look forward to becoming a Raith rovers who play to 1200 fans if they're lucky most weeks.

[norrie82]

I do not want us to spend what we do not have but we need to aspire to get back up and I firmly believe that we can. We need good management of the playing squad which is something we have t had for many years now. We need to give Alex a real shot at being successful. It is tough but I guess we can still be one of the better employers in.the championship? I suspect ourselves and Falkirk will be the best two payers outside whoever drops next term

[shull]

We must not go into debt Norrie.

f**king suicide buying our way out of the SPFL Championship

Alex Rae will win us promotion without liquidation

Just like Fergie, Hendrie and the original Wee Baldy.

COYS

[Sweeper07]

Wow. Just wow.

Quality rant.

All of it pretty much alcohol fuelled garbage.

TBH I doubt very much that you run ANY large company but it simple;y wouldn't surprise me.

Large companies are stuffed with "leaders" who have never started their own company and so lack basic business nous.

They'll flash their Harvard Business School lecture notes though as credentials.

Let me put this in terms you might understand.

You can dress things in all the corporate-speak you like. You can use phrases like investment, but if at the end of the year your income is less than your outgoings then your business is f**ked. End of story.

You say that most businesses don't follow this simple model.

I agree.

Check the High Street.

Compare it with just 50 years ago.

How many big names are still here?

If you like we can then move onto talking about why the Pharmaceutical industry is struggling and why they have ditched the simple business model for one of endless buy-outs, mergers and redundancies as a way of making money. We can maybe talk about why that approach is killing the industry.

Go on write some more irellevant sh*t, make other false acusations (so I suspect this will be the last time I reply to you) - it is pointless replying to you when you don't read and take in what is being said. Then attack folk who don't think like you do with whatever your imagination conjures up. (PS I am not much of a drinker - haven't had a beer in 3 months, only a few whisky's and a couple of glasses of wine - about 16 untis in 3 months, always only 1 in a 24 hour period )

It is ok to have opinions, but it is often helpful to LISTEN to other people's, ask questions for clarification etc. There is no need to be an arogant, ignorant to**er

[Sonny]

From the Evening Old Firm tonight ....

ALEX RAE admits St Mirren are playing ‘catch up’ in their recruitment drive for next season as their Championship safety still hangs in the balance.

The Buddies are currently 10 points clear of second-bottom Livingston and know their status in Scotland’s second tier could be secured this weekend.

This uncertainty has meant Rae’s plans for next season have been put on hold so the Saints board can let him know how much money will be at his disposal.

While he understands the approach, the St Mirren manager confesses it has left the Paisley club behind their competitors in the race tie down talent for the new campaign.

He said: “The thing is next week will be the time for us. If we can mathematically safe we can start to focus on sitting down with the guys, letting one or two know the state of the play and start building.

“We are kind of playing catch up in some respects because the teams that are up there have already resigned their players. We’ve identified players we would have liked to have signed on pre-contracts only for it to turn out they have resigned.

“So I think as a club we need to actually to improve on that.

“Having said that, I understand that you can’t commit if you don’t know where you are going to be. We are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea in that sense.”

Looking ahead to tomorrow’s trip to high-flying Falkirk, Rae is excited at the prospect of an exciting final four games that will be concluded by matches against Morton, Dumbarton and Rangers.

“It has always been looking forward to the next game because of the position we have been in since I came in,” he said.

“We have managed to get level with Queens and the objective is to just try and overtake them if we can.

“I’ve looked at all the fixtures for all the various permutations for all the teams above us and below us and we are very much of a muchness.

“I think the saving grace going into the last month of the season is our position, with obviously Hibs, Falkirk are challenging and we then have a derby and Dumbarton are just below us.

“Then obviously you have Rangers in the final game which our players will rise to that occasion as well so all the games have a meaning to them in some respect so hopefully we can get everybody on the front foot and I want that to continue through the summer.”

[oaksoft]

Go on write some more irellevant sh*t, make other false acusations (so I suspect this will be the last time I reply to you) - it is pointless replying to you when you don't read and take in what is being said. Then attack folk who don't think like you do with whatever your imagination conjures up. (PS I am not much of a drinker - haven't had a beer in 3 months, only a few whisky's and a couple of glasses of wine - about 16 untis in 3 months, always only 1 in a 24 hour period )

It is ok to have opinions, but it is often helpful to LISTEN to other people's, ask questions for clarification etc. There is no need to be an arogant, ignorant to**er

I would have more respect for your opnion if you hadnt pretended you were running a large company.

The giveaway was when you started quoting from a combination of Wiki and your lecture notes.

Genuine businessmen, and I have had my fair share of them over the years, simply dont talk like that.

The only people who talk like you are chancers, students and middle managers who have no real job which is why they resort to corporate speak.

[magnus]

I would have more respect for your opnion if you hadnt pretended you were running a large company.

The giveaway was when you started quoting from a combination of Wiki and your lecture notes.

Genuine businessmen, and I have had my fair share of them over the years, simply dont talk like that.

The only people who talk like you are chancers, students and middle managers who have no real job which is why they resort to corporate speak.

So it's a no to signing Keith Watson then?

[oaksoft]

So it's a no to signing Keith Watson then?

Can we afford him given the budget the manager has to work with?

[Soctty]

From the Evening Old Firm tonight ....

ALEX RAE admits St Mirren are playing ‘catch up’ in their recruitment drive for next season as their Championship safety still hangs in the balance.

The Buddies are currently 10 points clear of second-bottom Livingston and know their status in Scotland’s second tier could be secured this weekend.

This uncertainty has meant Rae’s plans for next season have been put on hold so the Saints board can let him know how much money will be at his disposal.

While he understands the approach, the St Mirren manager confesses it has left the Paisley club behind their competitors in the race tie down talent for the new campaign.

He said: “The thing is next week will be the time for us. If we can mathematically safe we can start to focus on sitting down with the guys, letting one or two know the state of the play and start building.

“We are kind of playing catch up in some respects because the teams that are up there have already resigned their players. We’ve identified players we would have liked to have signed on pre-contracts only for it to turn out they have resigned.

“So I think as a club we need to actually to improve on that.

“Having said that, I understand that you can’t commit if you don’t know where you are going to be. We are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea in that sense.”

Looking ahead to tomorrow’s trip to high-flying Falkirk, Rae is excited at the prospect of an exciting final four games that will be concluded by matches against Morton, Dumbarton and Rangers.

“It has always been looking forward to the next game because of the position we have been in since I came in,” he said.

“We have managed to get level with Queens and the objective is to just try and overtake them if we can.

“I’ve looked at all the fixtures for all the various permutations for all the teams above us and below us and we are very much of a muchness.

“I think the saving grace going into the last month of the season is our position, with obviously Hibs, Falkirk are challenging and we then have a derby and Dumbarton are just below us.

“Then obviously you have Rangers in the final game which our players will rise to that occasion as well so all the games have a meaning to them in some respect so hopefully we can get everybody on the front foot and I want that to continue through the summer.”

Hangs in the balance? Pish. We'd have to be utterly woeful for the rest of the season, and Dumbarton and Livingston reach new heights in terms of their season, for us to be in the mix to go down.

[magnus]

Hangs in the balance? Pish. We'd have to be utterly woeful for the rest of the season, and Dumbarton and Livingston reach new heights in terms of their season, for us to be in the mix to go down.

Agreed. Pish talk. Hope this isn't the management team paving the way for another close season of totally underwhelming signings.

[magnus]

Can we afford him given the budget the manager has to work with?

Seems the manager has no budget. The manager is in the Times saying the Board has all plans on hold as our Championship future is still in the balance.

Edited April 8, 2016 by magnus

[pod]

Can we afford him given the budget the manager has to work with?

What has he got to work with.