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No Club would go bust if they spent less than they were taking in.

Many lunatic Club Directors over the decades.

Yeah but look at Newcastle - big profit announcement and heading into relegation - it is not all about balancing the books or running in the black

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Whit ? 1eye.gif

I don't believe any top club or their fans would be happy being in the black with reasonable profits for the year, but getting relegated.

Can you imagine old firm fans or directors saying, "Oh well we got relegated, but at least we made a profit"

The main difference is the level of ambition and expectation is in a different league to what we aim for - I am not saying we can complete with them on their budget, but if we believe we are mediocre and try to be mediocre - guess what!!!!!

Edited by Sweeper07
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I don't believe any top club or their fans would be happy being in the black with reasonable profits for the year, but getting relegated.

Can you imagine old firm fans or directors saying, "Oh well we got relegated, but at least we made a profit"

The main difference is the level of ambition and expectation is in a different league to what we aim for - I am not saying we can complete with them on their budget, but if we believe we are mediocre and try to be mediocre - guess what!!!!!

Or from a Bolton fans perspective......"Oh well we got relegated and we're also financially f**ked because we spent money we didn't have"

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I don't believe any top club or their fans would be happy being in the black with reasonable profits for the year, but getting relegated.

Can you imagine old firm fans or directors saying, "Oh well we got relegated, but at least we made a profit"

The main difference is the level of ambition and expectation is in a different league to what we aim for - I am not saying we can complete with them on their budget, but if we believe we are mediocre and try to be mediocre - guess what!!!!!

This will be the same old firm where one of them nearly went bust around 1994 for spending too much money and the other went into liquidation in 2012.

Brilliant examples lol.gif

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Or from a Bolton fans perspective......"Oh well we got relegated and we're also financially f**ked because we spent money we didn't have"

Yes absolutely correct - but there is somewhere in between these extremes also - whereby the team and management are invested in wisely, the performance/results are not mediocre and even a decent measure of success is the outcome.

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Yes absolutely correct - but there is somewhere in between these extremes also - whereby the team and management are invested in wisely, the performance/results are not mediocre and even a decent measure of success is the outcome.

Explain invested, in the terms you're using it, please........

As a club we should look at all available revenue streams but we should never go into debt to bolster the squad. Football is littered with teams who are in dire straits or even worse (going into administration/liquidation) chasing the dream.

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I don't believe any top club or their fans would be happy being in the black with reasonable profits for the year, but getting relegated.

Can you imagine old firm fans or directors saying, "Oh well we got relegated, but at least we made a profit"

The main difference is the level of ambition and expectation is in a different league to what we aim for - I am not saying we can complete with them on their budget, but if we believe we are mediocre and try to be mediocre - guess what!!!!!

For any team, but certainly one of our size and means, going into the red voluntarily would be utter lunacy. Spending a wee bit more money doesn't guarantee anything. Spending a lot more money might elevate a team to promotion from the Championship, but we'd have spent money we don't have, which would be unsustainable, especially when interest payments are due on the debt.

I'd rather still have a club, than mourn a former club whose last act was to get promoted to the Premiership before going bust shortly after.

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My predictions based on player's game time under Rae and my limited viewing of player performances.

I've taken the liberty of assuming that any player offered their one year option, will take it up. Which might not be the case.

Jamie Langfield - In contract - kept

Daniel Wilks - Released

Jason Naismith - In contract - Kept

Sean Kelly - Out of contract - released

Andy Webster - Further year option offered- Kept

Jack Baird -In contract - Kept

Keith Watson - Out of contract - Has been offered new contract, but will sign with Premiership club.

Jordan Stewart - In contract - Kept

Gary Irvine - In contract - Kept

Jim Goodwin - Out of contract - released

Alan Gow - Out of contract - released

Stuart Carswell - Further year option not offered- Released

Cameron Howieson - - Further year option not offered- Released

Stephen Mallan - In contract - Kept

Scott Agnew - Out of contract - released

Lewis Morgan - In contract - Kept

Lewis McLear - In contract - Kept

Barry Cuddihy - Out of contract - Released

Alex Cooper - Out of contract - Offered new contract

Kyle McAllister - In contract - Kept

Rocco Quinn - Out of contract - Offered new contract

Cal Gallagher - Further year option offered- Kept.

David Clarkson - Back to Motherwell

Lawrence Shankland - Back to Aberdeen

Stevey Thompson - Out of contract - Retired

Edited by FTOF
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Explain invested, in the terms you're using it, please........

As a club we should look at all available revenue streams but we should never go into debt to bolster the squad. Football is littered with teams who are in dire straits or even worse (going into administration/liquidation) chasing the dream.

Soctty

For any team, but certainly one of our size and means, going into the red voluntarily would be utter lunacy. Spending a wee bit more money doesn't guarantee anything. Spending a lot more money might elevate a team to promotion from the Championship, but we'd have spent money we don't have, which would be unsustainable, especially when interest payments are due on the debt.

I'd rather still have a club, than mourn a former club whose last act was to get promoted to the Premiership before going bust shortly after.

Response.

Thanks for asking me to explain rather than calling me a nutter as the real nutters do. It is so easy to read into words things that are not intended.

So invested as I mean it - putting "our money", (Not big scary loans which will spiral us into meltdown) into commercial ventures, players, management with the expectation/ambition of achieving a "gain". (By expectation, I mean having done all the homework to give the business the best chance of it happening - business decisions should not be taken too quickly or too late) Sacking Murray was far too late; no question - the stats prove that, and although we can appreciate the BOD giving him every chance, it actually cost us more in the long run. (No play off place and still the pay off)

The BOD do invest to a fashion, of course they have to - Commercial ventures are things like the hospitality. I suspect there is more can be done in this area. (Guess that is Tony's arena to explore)

The money invested or risked in players and management in recent years has not always been good (to say the least). Murray was very disastrous - in terms of results (which always keeps fans away), the cost us in his wages, his assistant who got paid off and in signing folk like Gow, Agnew etc.. Teale, Craig were "cheap in house options" that proved to be very poor decisions indeed. (Craig had previously failed as a manager - decent coach though) The level of financial risk on them might have been less than for a good manager and players, but the result was clearly loss upon loss.

So if for example Rae was in at the start of the season and his record was roughly what it has been, we would have finished much higher in the league - the payment for finishing higher is significant (even between 8th and 5th it is tens of thousands of pounds). Finishing 4th or 3rd would have brought in even more (0ver £100,000) plus the play off games revenue added on to that.

My assertion is that the BOD and many fans seem to want us to "play what seems to be so safe" that THE 1st priority is financial breakeven, not a penny over ever... I am not saying we sign 2 extra better players and risk going into debt £100,000 or something like that - but if we were a little bolder and wiser in who we were signing and in other areas of Directorship management, there is a good chance it would pay off. (Not sure we have the right directors for that though) Certainly what they have been doing with their supposedly low risk keep us financially safe, decisions has not been safe(flirting with relegation) or smart.

So I think (just an opinion) Teale never got a decent enough chance to sign enough of the quality players that were available - the BOD would not take the risk and he was therefore just the short term, cheap option in stead of installing a decent manager in place of Craig. (i.e. Ross County took someone with experience in management, we did not and Teale was already on the books as a player - not sure what change was made financially to his contract - but he was a cheaper option - which failed miserably - and cost us playing in the Premier League budget wise for this year and next already.)

I also wonder if Murray got the job on the proviso of blooding more of the development/young (cheaper players, but prospects). OK he did have a budget and signed some experience too - but the mix was wrong. He was also a bit unlucky with Naismith's injury, then Watson's too. But he did not have good management credentials (Last season at Dumbarton they won 9 out of 36 league games and lost 79 goals - yeah shocking isn't it? Promising young manager my ASS)

I also think the BOD did raise their normal stingy bar when they brought in Rae. (I don't know what he is getting paid or how it compares to what Murray was on - however, He offloaded 5 players and brought in 4 - 3 from the Premier League). Again this is speculation, but I think the BOD, like the fans were in real fear of relegation, so I suspect Rae's budget to bring in the experience that the squad and team were so obviously lacking, was more than the BOD would have afforded him otherwise. (Just look at how our best paid players went away/off the budget each year, year after year previously.) I am not saying that should never be done, but year after year losing your best 1 or 2 makes life a lot more difficult. As an example look at Dundee Utd - they lost several of their better players in a couple of seasons, and they too are following in our footsteps. (They might yet survive, but they are in the black financially - yet they have been a top 6 side for so long - who expected them to be in bottom place at this stage in the season?)

So does no one agree our pot of money, which could be bigger if we were more financially astute, could have been INVESTED in better players and management than it has been in recent years? IF you are happy with what has gone on, then maybe surviving as a club is all that matters?

I think surviving as a club matters too - but not in isolation to being where we ought to be - surely that is not in the pack with Dunbarton and Morton? Lower than Hamilton and Partick to name but a few?

I don't think any of us are poles apart in what we want for St. Mirren. Even the improvement under Rae already has lifted the spirits - but compared to where we were a few seasons ago, we will need some bigger ambition, wiser investment and a better squad that we currently have.

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TBH there isnt a coherent thought in that rambling post.

He talks about spending more money. What money?

We cant borrow it so where does he think it is going to miraculously come from?

I think we all simply want to know how much money he thinks we should gamble.

What amount would be considered "not scary"?

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My predictions based on player's game time under Rae and my limited viewing of player performances.

I've taken the liberty of assuming that any player offered their one year option, will take it up. Which might not be the case.

Jamie Langfield - In contract - kept

Daniel Wilks - Released

Jason Naismith - In contract - Kept

Sean Kelly - Out of contract - released

Andy Webster - Further year option offered- Kept

Jack Baird -In contract - Kept

Keith Watson - Out of contract - Has been offered new contract, but will sign with Premiership club.

Jordan Stewart - In contract - Kept

Gary Irvine - In contract - Kept

Jim Goodwin - Out of contract - released

Alan Gow - Out of contract - released

Stuart Carswell - Further year option not offered- Released

Cameron Howieson - - Further year option not offered- Released

Stephen Mallan - In contract - Kept

Scott Agnew - Out of contract - released

Lewis Morgan - In contract - Kept

Lewis McLear - In contract - Kept

Barry Cuddihy - Out of contract - Released

Alex Cooper - Out of contract - Offered new contract

Kyle McAllister - In contract - Kept

Rocco Quinn - Out of contract - Offered new contract

Cal Gallagher - Further year option offered- Kept.

David Clarkson - Back to Motherwell

Lawrence Shankland - Back to Aberdeen

Stevey Thompson - Out of contract - Retired

Think this is pretty close to what will happen. But I'd like Kelly to stay and if possible Shankland. I'm actually not that fussed about Quinn or Cooper. And much as I hate to say it Rae seems to rate Gow,

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Think this is pretty close to what will happen. But I'd like Kelly to stay and if possible Shankland. I'm actually not that fussed about Quinn or Cooper. And much as I hate to say it Rae seems to rate Gow,

I'd like Shankland to stay too, but that's completely out of our hands.

I'm not bothered about Cooper either, but I think a fit Quinn could be a great asset for us next season.

Unless Gow has set of incriminating photos of our manager in a compromising position, then he'll be out on his arse.

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I'd like Shankland to stay too, but that's completely out of our hands.

I'm not bothered about Cooper either, but I think a fit Quinn could be a great asset for us next season.

Unless Gow has set of incriminating photos of our manager in a compromising position, then he'll be out on his arse.

It is but more down to Shankland than anyone else. I think he's shown that this is about hls level. He's still young and unless an SPL team offers him game time, then he's as well here as anywhere. Can't see him getting a place at Aberdeen

Quinn is a bit of mixed bag. He's an improvement on Carswell, but not actually done that well IMO. If he stays fine but not fussed. There's as good or better kicking around.

Gow is not for me either, but Rae gave him a long run in the reserves to get match fit and a good few cameos in the first team. To be fair he really came into a game in the reserves and probably was not better or worse than the majority of the team in his appearances. I don't think he has any photos of Rae (what a revolting picture). But never underestimate the bigot connection.

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It is but more down to Shankland than anyone else. I think he's shown that this is about hls level. He's still young and unless an SPL team offers him game time, then he's as well here as anywhere. Can't see him getting a place at Aberdeen

Quinn is a bit of mixed bag. He's an improvement on Carswell, but not actually done that well IMO. If he stays fine but not fussed. There's as good or better kicking around.

Gow is not for me either, but Rae gave him a long run in the reserves to get match fit and a good few cameos in the first team. To be fair he really came into a game in the reserves and probably was not better or worse than the majority of the team in his appearances. I don't think he has any photos of Rae (what a revolting picture). But never underestimate the bigot connection.

Gow is out the door

He played himself in a few weeks ago by playing well in the reserves and a couple decent performances from the bench

He got start and was dreadful and got dufflecoated at half time

Had his chance and played like a novice

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I don't think he has any photos of Rae (what a revolting picture). But never underestimate the bigot connection.

FFS didn't think that you were a bitter and twisted dafty, Rae will pick players on their footballing ability and how they fit into the type of team he plans to build. Edited by Kendo
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Gow is out the door

He played himself in a few weeks ago by playing well in the reserves and a couple decent performances from the bench

He got start and was dreadful and got dufflecoated at half time

Had his chance and played like a novice

Yip that's my reading of it. Gave him a chance to see what he could do and he didn't impress.

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