Scouting Strategy Required for JR

[TediousTom]

36 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

 

You mock but I know a few scouts who generally cover youth football who are working essentially for free - obviously expenses are paid and they'll get free admission to matches - and who do what the do for the love of the game.

I was approached by Falkirk a few years back to scout for them. There was no salary but I'd get expenses, tickets and a payment if any youth player I referred made the first team. I politely declined but I know others jumped at the chance

 

Similar things have happened to me over the years.

 

Alex Ferguson asked me to play up front for Scotland at Mexico 1986 but due to being a pensioner I had to decline.

 

Alex Smith asked me to play up front in the 1987 cup final with the express instruction to score the winner during extra time.  I politely declined due to being a pensioner and said "why don't you get yon Ian Ferguson to do it".  I am unsure If Alex Smith listened.

 

Danny Lennon asked me to sit on the bench at the league cup final 2013 with the instruction "If we are 3-2 up you can come on and play centre half as I don't seem to like playing Lee Mair for whatever reason".  Again I had to decline on account of being a pensioner.

 

I did once spot a young fresh faced 21yr old striker playing for Johnstone Burgh.  Francis McAvitie or something was his name.  I told the Saint Mirren professional football club pte ltd co about him at the time, I am unsure how that worked out. 

 

SD and I are like peas in a pod!

Edited October 5, 2016 by TediousTom

[Stuart Dickson]

35 minutes ago, Paisley brazilians said:

Scouting networks works like any other infrastructure in a club  someone needs to have a final say. Even when the volunteers are highlighting players the head of scouting needs to cast an eye over them.and that person is usually on the books. Plus my son played his first year at 11s last year in the p&d and all the players who were showing potential were snapped up Early in the season by the likes of Celtic.rangers.Hamilton.Morton. no st Mirren. the academy would benifit big time.

Surely that would be within the remit of Allan McManus at the club currently. 

There's plenty of scope to set up a scouting network on the cheap. There's a squad full of football players currently at the club who turn up for training at 10am and go home at 2pm. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult to ask full time footballers to put in a few extra hours. 

[beyond our ken]

6 hours ago, rebella15 said:

We have no scouting system but GScott has a coiffed shop planned !

good, i can get my hair done at the ground.

[beyond our ken]

10 hours ago, amdsm said:

I wonder if this is something we could fund with SMISA money?

SMISA money is not guaranteed and is variable, so no, you could not guarantee salaries (or even expenses) against it.

[windae cleaner]

3 hours ago, Paisley brazilians said:

Scouting networks works like any other infrastructure in a club  someone needs to have a final say. Even when the volunteers are highlighting players the head of scouting needs to cast an eye over them.and that person is usually on the books. Plus my son played his first year at 11s last year in the p&d and all the players who were showing potential were snapped up Early in the season by the likes of Celtic.rangers.Hamilton.Morton. no st Mirren. the academy would benifit big time.

Again a comment like yours goes unnoticed for digs at Stu Dick

Add Partick Thistle into the mix as well

[amdsm]

1 hour ago, beyond our ken said:

SMISA money is not guaranteed and is variable, so no, you could not guarantee salaries (or even expenses) against it.

I understand the money is not entirely guaranteed but the ballpark figure is surely solid enough to permit a salary range to be given. I don't know how much it costs to fund a shooting network at our level but I can't see how the variable range of SMISA income is an insurmountable obstacle.

[Liverpool Bud]

In early 1990's as a qualified football coach and new appointed PE teacher at a school in Ellesmere Port - the school had just secured funding for an Astro pitch.

Manchester Utd were in contact immediately as the wanted to set up a under 8's soccer school and get a foothold in the area ( their nearest one was in Crewe ) myself and colleague were asked to become accredited Man U coaches and co-ordinate the franchise.

it all sounded very glamourous but in reality the hours were unsociable - the pay was poor and the potential hassle from parents "promoting" their talented prodigy meant I declined.

that aside I still work near Widnes and plenty of the kids get scouted by Liverpool - Everton - City - Wrexham - Tranmere - Crewe and Accrington - for a small fee I'd be happy to send a few northwards!!!

[pod]

4 minutes ago, Liverpool Bud said:

In early 1990's as a qualified football coach and new appointed PE teacher at a school in Ellesmere Port - the school had just secured funding for an Astro pitch.

Manchester Utd were in contact immediately as the wanted to set up a under 8's soccer school and get a foothold in the area ( their nearest one was in Crewe ) myself and colleague were asked to become accredited Man U coaches and co-ordinate the franchise.

it all sounded very glamourous but in reality the hours were unsociable - the pay was poor and the potential hassle from parents "promoting" their talented prodigy meant I declined.

that aside I still work near Widnes and plenty of the kids get scouted by Liverpool - Everton - City - Wrexham - Tranmere - Crewe and Accrington - for a small fee I'd be happy to send a few northwards!!!

If we could afford a small fee, we would get a scout.  Bob a job. 

[northstbuddie]

The irony of the situation we find ourselves in will not be lost by many on here.

The reign of Stewart Gilmour brought many benefits to the club - but not a basic scouting system!

The irony is that Stewart's uncle Jack was one of the most respected chief scouts in Scottish football during his lengthy service with St Mirren in the post war era.

[Stuart Dickson]

59 minutes ago, Liverpool Bud said:

In early 1990's as a qualified football coach and new appointed PE teacher at a school in Ellesmere Port - the school had just secured funding for an Astro pitch.

Manchester Utd were in contact immediately as the wanted to set up a under 8's soccer school and get a foothold in the area ( their nearest one was in Crewe ) myself and colleague were asked to become accredited Man U coaches and co-ordinate the franchise.

it all sounded very glamourous but in reality the hours were unsociable - the pay was poor and the potential hassle from parents "promoting" their talented prodigy meant I declined.

that aside I still work near Widnes and plenty of the kids get scouted by Liverpool - Everton - City - Wrexham - Tranmere - Crewe and Accrington - for a small fee I'd be happy to send a few northwards!!!

Its the same up here only it's not the clubs that are involved, it's the SFA and the local education authorities. Wishaw Wycombe currently send coaches in to help out with some of their football programmes in the local area coaching kids with disabilities in rotation with other clubs. I think it's something like once every 4 weeks. We also used to have some coaches who were working under the SFA brand delivering after school football in some of the local primary schools. It actually makes sense IMO as it's usually an entry route into the sport for these kids, and if they want to take it further by joining the club then they'll often have a friendly face amongst the coaches if not amongst the players. I've no idea why clubs like St Mirren don't run similar programmes at a local level using local clubs, after all the funding is there for it. 

 

 

 

[jimmy 1]

St Mirren do have a few youth scouts working within the academy.  I would think Rae was talking about a scout in the senior  game. I know he had a couple of guys watching opponents  for him bit I fount very much that any club in the championship  have an extensive  scouting network. 

Rae was a bad manager. End of.

[Stuart Dickson]

1 hour ago, jimmy 1 said:

St Mirren do have a few youth scouts working within the academy.  I would think Rae was talking about a scout in the senior  game. I know he had a couple of guys watching opponents  for him bit I fount very much that any club in the championship  have an extensive  scouting network. 

Rae was a bad manager. End of.

Jimmy, it's a few years ago now, but David Longwell told me the academy didn't have any scouts. Has that changed? 

[Paisley brazilians]

I remember in the 90s local lads were getting scouted by the likes of Newcastle. Ipswich . Everton . But I'm sure I read an article a few years back saying English clubs don't come over the border any more and if this is true then any talented  local players are there for the taking  and we haven't capitalized on it. We might have even produced a descent striker.

[Stuart Dickson]

1 minute ago, Paisley brazilians said:

I remember in the 90s local lads were getting scouted by the likes of Newcastle. Ipswich . Everton . But I'm sure I read an article a few years back saying English clubs don't come over the border any more and if this is true then any talented  local players are there for the taking  and we haven't capitalized on it. We might have even produced a descent striker.

I can't speak for Paisley but in Lanarkshire they definitely do. We've had scouts from Fulham, Sunderland, West Ham and Manchester City over the last few years. Fulham even signed a couple of local lads after following up initial enquiries a year after scouting them. 

[Paisley brazilians]

OK Stuart .I was sure that i read it but no worries  glad someone is giving them a chance. I heard super score board tonight and funnily enough  the pro youth system was one of the topics and the pro's are saying it doesn't work to many players are being missed because they haven't grown or filled out in a year. Messi .maradona.cafu.Roberto carlos even billy Dodds wouldn't have made it now a days in this set up. an absolution nonsense of a system. The dutch pioneered the scouting system 40 years ago and it works why change it.

[Stuart Dickson]

3 minutes ago, Paisley brazilians said:

OK Stuart .I was sure that i read it but no worries  glad someone is giving them a chance. I heard super score board tonight and funnily enough  the pro youth system was one of the topics and the pro's are saying it doesn't work to many players are being missed because they haven't grown or filled out in a year. Messi .maradona.cafu.Roberto carlos even billy Dodds wouldn't have made it now a days in this set up. an absolution nonsense of a system. The dutch pioneered the scouting system 40 years ago and it works why change it.

Yeah, I've been a long term critic of the pro youth system. There's loads of issues with it. What you've heard is right. Too much of whatever scouting is done is generally done around the 8, 9, 10 and 11 year old age groups. Players are written off after that unless they happen to play for their regional side in one of the friendlies that they often play against pro youth clubs. So what I found was that clubs were signing lads who had developed earlier in terms of speed or height, and were releasing them again 2 or 3 years later because they hadn't grown as much as the club would have liked. Parents used to tell me about kids getting weighed and measured and I once had a Rangers scout tell me that he was on instructions only to sign boys whose parents were tall because Rangers reckoned they could teach kids balls skills but they couldn't teach them to be tall. 

On the other side I talked to plenty of guys who had either coached in the pro youth system, or who were coaching in the pro youth system who would tell you about the large number of "shirt fillers" they had in the squad - players they knew wouldn't make it but who they needed anyway to make a team up, in some cases so they could get the SFA funding, and in others because they had one or two players they were keeping an eye on and they needed players around them to make up a team. 

You've got thousands of lads in the pro youth system right now most of whom who will never make it, all of whom are getting free kit from their clubs, aren't paying training subs or match fees (as they would do in juvenile football) and who are being transported across the country to play in matches in the pro youth leagues. And yet dafties like Henry McLeish and Mark Wotte thought this was the only way forward. 

There's loads of countries out there that we can learn bits and pieces from in terms of youth development. The problem is that all too often in Scotland we've got people who are protecting their own domain and who will only see the stuff that doesn't put their career at risk - perhaps understandably - and when guys like Gordon Strachan or Brian McClair have moved to change things they've come across resistance from clubs. 

I don't know if you are involved in coaching youth teams, or if it's just what you've seen watching your kids play but if they are at that age right now where clubs are sniffing around I'd venture they are still in that younger age group. You'll see soon enough clubs who have a youth development set up who will bin whole squads of players after losing to a local youth team in a friendly, or who will scrap their whole system because funding has come through late. 

[Paisley brazilians]

Your bang on super scoreboard had an ex Celtic youth coach liam buchanan on a few months ago he was saying 10 boys only got a game so aiden mageady could play every week. I'm not involved in coaching but just concerned about this crazy development system and the lack of our flag ship academy players playing every week and challenging for positions.

[smcc]

On 05/10/2016 at 5:59 PM, amdsm said:

I understand the money is not entirely guaranteed but the ballpark figure is surely solid enough to permit a salary range to be given. I don't know how much it costs to fund a shooting network at our level but I can't see how the variable range of SMISA income is an insurmountable obstacle.

Assassins United? Would they target Coatbridge with a certain target in mind?

[Kombibuddie]

Clubs in England cast their nets far & wide with extensive scouting networks covering a few counties.

I manage Romford Borough Youth FC U13's in East London. On Sunday, after the U13's match, I was approached  by a Norwich City Scout asking permission to speak to 2 of my players parents. This was in East London. They were given a choice of 2 centres of excellence to attend. Monday Night in Chelmsford (Essex) or Tuesday night in Walthamstow (East London). They'll go for 6 weeks for trials and then I'll be told if they want to sign either or not.

I expect one of them to be definitely offered whatever it is they offer 12 year olds to sign for them. The other lad, had Arsenal sniffing round but nothing appears to have come of that but he has the determination and desire to become a footballer, I won't be expected if they take him too

Here's hoping they both do well and get signed, It will weaken my team though as they are the 2 best players but if that's the outcome, I'll be delighted.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Kombibuddie

[Stuart Dickson]

3 hours ago, Kombibuddie said:

Clubs in England cast their nets far & wide with extensive scouting networks covering a few counties.

I manage Romford Borough Youth FC U13's in East London. On Sunday, after the U13's match, I was approached  by a Norwich City Scout asking permission to speak to 2 of my players parents. This was in East London. They were given a choice of 2 centres of excellence to attend. Monday Night in Chelmsford (Essex) or Tuesday night in Walthamstow (East London). They'll go for 6 weeks for trials and then I'll be told if they want to sign either or not.

I expect one of them to be definitely offered whatever it is they offer 12 year olds to sign for them. The other lad, had Arsenal sniffing round but nothing appears to have come of that but he has the determination and desire to become a footballer, I won't be expected if they take him too

Here's hoping they both do well and get signed, It will weaken my team though as they are the 2 best players but if that's the outcome, I'll be delighted.

Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs used to run two centres of excellence here as well Kombi. I'm not sure if they still do. Peter Weir used to head up the Aberdeen development side at Wishaw Sports Centre and then latterly at Ravenscraig. They'd train their players here and then mix them with the lads in Aberdeen to when it came to playing matches. I'm not sure how practical or affordable it all was though. It's a crazy amount of travelling for a school kid who is supposed to be studying for exams, and it doesn't deal with the problem of shirt fillers being funded by the game who are never going to make it. Hearts used to run out of Hamilton Palace as well as at Herriott Watt and Hibs had a set up in Uddingston as well as their main academy at Tranent. The Hibs one at Uddingston definitely folded when John Park left Hibs for Celtic.

You've got the right attitude Kombi. When our team was top of the league we'd constantly have scouts targeting our players. I lost count of the number of times I pointed out to our Head Coach that at one point we'll be sitting in a pub watching the football on TV and I asked what story he'd rather have. Would he prefer to be telling everyone about the glory days when he managed a team of kids to the Under 12's LFDA League Championship, or would he rather be pointing at the TV telling everyone how many of the players playing that day had come through his club. 

There are too many players going through these "centres of excellence" though, and they tend to be anything but excellent at producing top quality players. Personally I think raising standards across the grassroots and keeping kids playing as much football as they possibly can in their local area until the age of 14/15 rather than have them sitting in a car travelling across country would be beneficial to the game - but then clubs like St Mirren really would have to get their finger out and get scouts working for them.