We Are Down

[whydowebother]

Stranger things have happened in football . 

I'll keep believing that we can turn this around until it's arithmeticly impossible .

I agree , and as flippant as it looks I am first normally to predict wins for us etc , just tinged with a bit of reality until we can see some 'shoots of recovery' a defeat is a defeat no matter how it's dressed up & defeats are what we are achieving in the league.

The logic of the upbeat post would require us to win 5 league games on the bounce ( 3 away , 2 home ) while hoping the 3 teams he mentioned all lose at the same time we win.

It's not going to happen.

Anyone fancy a wager we won't win the next 5 league games on the bounce while the 3 teams above us all lose ?

Still , a tad hopeful now I've been informed 'all we have to do' is win , like most , I can't wait.

[munoz]

1 minute ago, whydowebother said:

I agree , and as flippant as it looks I am first normally to predict wins for us etc , just tinged with a bit of reality until we can see some 'shoots of recovery' a defeat is a defeat no matter how it's dressed up & defeats are what we are achieving in the league.

The logic of the upbeat post would require us to win 5 league games on the bounce ( 3 away , 2 home ) while hoping the 3 teams he mentioned all lose at the same time we win.

It's not going to happen.

Anyone fancy a wager we won't win the next league games on the bounce while the 3 teams above us all lose ?

Still , a tad hopeful now I've been informed 'all we have to do' is win , like most , I can't wait.

I'll pass on the bet of winning our next 5 , but still believe come the end of the season , we'll be safe .

[Loyal Supporter]

1 hour ago, kevo_smfc said:

Post of the day!

Agree completely with you . Jack Ross is working very very hard to build confidence and 2 wins in a a row and our season is off only problem will be keeping hold of Jack at the end of this season as he will attract interest from other Clubs if he keeps us up 

[Seaside Nipper]

I think it would be prudent for the board, to protect the position of the club, to bring in experience to assist JR, over and above what we have in place. Calderwood, mibees.

Hmmm, I'm getting an Alec Miller moment !
Remember how that free experiment ended.

[TopCat]

I agree , and as flippant as it looks I am first normally to predict wins for us etc , just tinged with a bit of reality until we can see some 'shoots of recovery' a defeat is a defeat no matter how it's dressed up & defeats are what we are achieving in the league.

The logic of the upbeat post would require us to win 5 league games on the bounce ( 3 away , 2 home ) while hoping the 3 teams he mentioned all lose at the same time we win.

It's not going to happen.

Anyone fancy a wager we won't win the next 5 league games on the bounce while the 3 teams above us all lose ?

Still , a tad hopeful now I've been informed 'all we have to do' is win , like most , I can't wait.

There's definitely a fair bit of blind optimism/delusion going on here. It's a fine line between the two I guess.

I don't think many fans appreciate the severity of the situation. This isn't just one of the worst St Mirren teams of all time we are watching every week, this is one of the worst second tier sides of all time. The stats don't lie:

I've only gone back 11 years, but Brechin went 19 matches without a win and finished on 17 points, well adrift.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/division-one/2005-2006/table/2005-12-17

St Mirren are the worst in the last ten seasons @ 13 matches.

Airdrie went 11 without a win in 09/10.  Three other teams in the last ten seasons went ten matches before their first win: Queen of the South in 06/07; Stirling in 07/08 (who drew seven of the ten); and Dumbarton in 12/13.

There is mixed success among those clubs in terms of avoiding the bottom two places.  Queens escaped, but even the bottom team finished on 37 points.  Dumbarton had a brilliant escape, finishing seventh - Jack Ross was assistant to Ian Murray IIRC.  Airdrie finished second-bottom and the others finished bottom.

We are the worst team that's played in this league in the last ten years at this stage of the season. That's absolutely remarkable when you consider the amount of part time teams that have been and still are in the division during that period. This St Mirren team is worse than the lot of them.

Its all very well in saying that 'yeah yeah we are going to magic a run of wins from nowhere and we will be fine.' Of course this could happen, but given what we have seen from this group of players and manager so far I would say it's extremely unlikely.

The sad reality is we are almost certainly going to be relegated this season. It will take significant January investment and then an unprecedented run of form between January and May to keep us up. I can't see either happening, never mind both.

[Soctty]

There are two courses of action one might take as a fan in these circumstances:

 

1. Keep droning on about how bad we are, single out players for abuse, lay a path for the sacking of the manager after only 6 games in charge, and generally sicken yourself with negativity and gloom, moaning that it's up to the players to lift the fans and not the other way round.

2. Look for the positives in our play since the new man came in, be it improved play, more solid defence, introduction of hungry, young players to replace established players bereft of confidence, look at the reality that there are still 69 points to play for in our remaining 23 games, and get behind the team and manager. Give the players a lift each week when you're at the game.

 

Some may call it blind faith, but that is what is needed sometimes. When you're rock bottom, there has to be positivity to get you going. The fans can provide that at each game, but as important for me is that I am not going to traipse around over the coming months in a bubble of despair and negative thoughts.

 

We can win a game. And if we can win one, we can win a few. If we can win a few, the impossible becomes possible. It starts with belief though, and a certain amount of blind faith. 

 

#believe

[magnus]

Tough reading but almost certainly correct. Not sure what lessons can be learned. Certainly 6 years was way too long to have the Club up for sale and this contributed to numerous negligent, bad. short term decisions. Great facilities = great team? Dont think so. Fans will turn up regardless of the quality on the park? Youth is the way to go? Articulate coaches are better than ones who give garbled post match interviews?

[melmac]

Alas, I don't think Millar had much to do with that. Support from an experienced older head can, I would hope, only be good.

[Mr Zo]

There are two courses of action one might take as a fan in these circumstances:

 

1. Keep droning on about how bad we are, single out players for abuse, lay a path for the sacking of the manager after only 6 games in charge, and generally sicken yourself with negativity and gloom, moaning that it's up to the players to lift the fans and not the other way round.

2. Look for the positives in our play since the new man came in, be it improved play, more solid defence, introduction of hungry, young players to replace established players bereft of confidence, look at the reality that there are still 69 points to play for in our remaining 23 games, and get behind the team and manager. Give the players a lift each week when you're at the game.

 

Some may call it blind faith, but that is what is needed sometimes. When you're rock bottom, there has to be positivity to get you going. The fans can provide that at each game, but as important for me is that I am not going to traipse around over the coming months in a bubble of despair and negative thoughts.

 

We can win a game. And if we can win one, we can win a few. If we can win a few, the impossible becomes possible. It starts with belief though, and a certain amount of blind faith. 

 

#believe

Joint top post of the day! :-)

[Stuart Dickson]

There are two courses of action one might take as a fan in these circumstances:

 

1. Keep droning on about how bad we are, single out players for abuse, lay a path for the sacking of the manager after only 6 games in charge, and generally sicken yourself with negativity and gloom, moaning that it's up to the players to lift the fans and not the other way round.

2. Look for the positives in our play since the new man came in, be it improved play, more solid defence, introduction of hungry, young players to replace established players bereft of confidence, look at the reality that there are still 69 points to play for in our remaining 23 games, and get behind the team and manager. Give the players a lift each week when you're at the game.

 

Some may call it blind faith, but that is what is needed sometimes. When you're rock bottom, there has to be positivity to get you going. The fans can provide that at each game, but as important for me is that I am not going to traipse around over the coming months in a bubble of despair and negative thoughts.

 

We can win a game. And if we can win one, we can win a few. If we can win a few, the impossible becomes possible. It starts with belief though, and a certain amount of blind faith. 

 

#believe

Aye it's certainly blind faith if you can claim the defence is more solid. In the last two games I've been at St Mirren lost due to a ridiculously bad goalkeepering error, and a silly mistake from a centre half who dived in and missed his header. Go back one more match for me and it's the Cappielow catastrophe.

I understand the need for some fans to act in a delusional way and to believe in something that just isn't there. But I'm afraid it's realism that is all that will turn the club around. Anger creates action, delusional blind faith gives those in charge an excuse to continue perpetuating with the same old pish.

[Stuart Dickson]

Tough reading but almost certainly correct. Not sure what lessons can be learned. Certainly 6 years was way too long to have the Club up for sale and this contributed to numerous negligent, bad. short term decisions. Great facilities = great team? Dont think so. Fans will turn up regardless of the quality on the park? Youth is the way to go? Articulate coaches are better than ones who give garbled post match interviews?

Youth is only the way to go if they are good enough. As I said yesterday if the club had presented what is currently the starting squad as the team it was going to face the season with fans would have been alarmed and would have predicted the struggle ahead. The team that looked good on paper had NINE first team squad members who aren't getting a game under Jack Ross.

St Mirren have used a lot of money I'm the Academy yet the results to date don't look inspired. I think too many people put too much faith in David Longwell and it seems obvious now he wasn't delivering results that could be be transferred into first team football. There needs to be a proper review of how the club sources it's talent and of how they are coached, and any review should also encompass the relationship between St Mirren and community football. In particular there should be an analysis done to see where resources could be shared for mutual benefit.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

20 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

 

Aye it's certainly blind faith if you can claim the defence is more solid. In the last two games I've been at St Mirren lost due to a ridiculously bad goalkeepering error, and a silly mistake from a centre half who dived in and missed his header. Go back one more match for me and it's the Cappielow catastrophe.

I understand the need for some fans to act in a delusional way and to believe in something that just isn't there. But I'm afraid it's realism that is all that will turn the club around. Anger creates action, delusional blind faith gives those in charge an excuse to continue perpetuating with the same old pish.

 

 

Fancy a wee bet for Calums Cabin a charity for dying children and their families to have a wee holiday on Bute. A specially built house on the shore looking on to Arran from Bute. I will wager 100 fresh crispy notes with you wee don't get relegated.  What a fantastic cause to help families with terminal illness. 

[BuddieinEK]

Aye it's certainly blind faith if you can claim the defence is more solid. In the last two games I've been at St Mirren lost due to a ridiculously bad goalkeepering error, and a silly mistake from a centre half who dived in and missed his header. Go back one more match for me and it's the Cappielow catastrophe.

I understand the need for some fans to act in a delusional way and to believe in something that just isn't there. But I'm afraid it's realism that is all that will turn the club around. Anger creates action, delusional blind faith gives those in charge an excuse to continue perpetuating with the same old pish.

Are you implying that we have shown you delusional blind faith on the forum Stuart?

You rightly highlight two costly defensive errors that cost us points.

Two is a damned sight less thsn in previous matches.

The manager responded to the first one with decisive action... and I think there is a fair chance he has highlighted and has been working on the second one.

Your negativity is so entrenched that I seriously gave concerns sbout your mental health snd wellbeing!

[Stuart Dickson]

Are you implying that we have shown you delusional blind faith on the forum Stuart?

You rightly highlight two costly defensive errors that cost us points.

Two is a damned sight less thsn in previous matches.

The manager responded to the first one with decisive action... and I think there is a fair chance he has highlighted and has been working on the second one.

Your negativity is so entrenched that I seriously gave concerns sbout your mental health snd wellbeing!

Those match costing mistakes were against the second and third worst sides in the division - both at home. Against Dunfermline it could have been much worse particularly when in injury time Clark ran at the St Mirren defence and both players fell on their backside. The defence doesn't look better to me at all.

[munoz]

1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

Youth is only the way to go if they are good enough. As I said yesterday if the club had presented what is currently the starting squad as the team it was going to face the season with fans would have been alarmed and would have predicted the struggle ahead. The team that looked good on paper had NINE first team squad members who aren't getting a game under Jack Ross.

St Mirren have used a lot of money I'm the Academy yet the results to date don't look inspired. I think too many people put too much faith in David Longwell and it seems obvious now he wasn't delivering results that could be be transferred into first team football. There needs to be a proper review of how the club sources it's talent and of how they are coached, and any review should also encompass the relationship between St Mirren and community football. In particular there should be an analysis done to see where resources could be shared for mutual benefit.

 

You've not got a clue . 

I rekon you have a vendetta with St Mirren and David Longwell cause they both told you where to go . 

Fool of a man .

[BuddieinEK]

59 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

The defence doesn't look better to me at all.

 

That certainly doesn't mean that it is not better.

[RussellV1]

we certainly look like relegation fodder to me. Not impossible to stay up but unlikely IMO

[Barney63]

If you think this is the worst Saints team ever, you haven't even been paying attention over the last 5 seasons.  (Plus, of course, we haven't had 'ever'  yet, and there will probably be worse to come at some point).   Apart from a dismal first 30 minutes we were the better footballing side against Dunfermline by a fair margin, which we have no right to expect really, and on another day might have won.  But of course we didn't, and goals are what count and we need to get the ball into the box, and in the back of the opposition's net much more.  I admit I've not seen us play for a while because I've largely lost interest of late, my apathy kicked in during the Lennon era when you could already detect a whiff of inevitable decay despite the cup win.  I've done maybe 45 years hard time at Love Street and the Stadium of Revolving Names, but right now I have enough unhappiness in my life. I recall I similarly disengaged in the Hendrie /Coughlin eras, the latter of which I remember as far worse in terms of the football on display.      I've said it before, because age does have the compensation of offering genuine perspective, but I remember enjoying life when we were I think the last part-time team in the old first division.  We had better players and bigger crowds too in those days and it didn't seem to hurt us.  I liked Ross as an ok player for us and he seems a decent man.  Of course I wish him well but we really need better players, not a merry-go-round of managers.  That said, I find the judgement of anyone who wears a quilted jacket to be at least questionable. I'm surprised no one else has picked up on this crucial point; perhaps our problems are much deeper than I fear.  Talisker-fuelled rant over.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Barney63

[The Original 59er]

Talk of new management is away off the mark, and actually muddies an already murky pool.

The simple fact is we aren't playing nearly well enough as a collected bunch of 'supposed' footballers to match the other teams around us in the 2nd tier of Scottish football. The saddest fact being that Scottish football isn't that good either!

The fact that our football isn't good enough isn't down to Jack Ross. I would bet that even if we had a Calderwood or a McPherson or a Lambert in there, the results would have been the same, put simply as a collective bunch or as individuals they either aren't good enough and they make simple mistakes, or they do just enough to suggest they are trying, but deep down a number of them are going through the motions.

Who I feel for are the younger players being introduced into a losing, failing mentality. Where or how does that allow them to develop? Also is Shankland that bad that he can't get a starting spot? However I won't single out individual players as it is the team that is losing, not just one player or manager that is responsible.

[faraway saint]

8 minutes ago, The Original 59er said:

Talk of new management is away off the mark, and actually muddies an already murky pool.

The simple fact is we aren't playing nearly well enough as a collected bunch of 'supposed' footballers to match the other teams around us in the 2nd tier of Scottish football. The saddest fact being that Scottish football isn't that good either!

The fact that our football isn't good enough isn't down to Jack Ross. I would bet that even if we had a Calderwood or a McPherson or a Lambert in there, the results would have been the same, put simply as a collective bunch or as individuals they either aren't good enough and they make simple mistakes, or they do just enough to suggest they are trying, but deep down a number of them are going through the motions.

Who I feel for are the younger players being introduced into a losing, failing mentality. Where or how does that allow them to develop? Also is Shankland that bad that he can't get a starting spot? However I won't single out individual players as it is the team that is losing, not just one player or manager that is responsible.

I would take the bet on any of the three you mention the results would have been better. In fact I could have done better, or at least as bad.

[The Original 59er]

15 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I would take the bet on any of the three you mention the results would have been better. In fact I could have done better, or at least as bad.

What you seem to be relying on in placing your bet is that over a succession of several managers the team have been playing poorly, deteriorating and ultimately failing.

Now I accept that as a generality none of the incumbents have / had a long track record but they had been relatively successful at clubs with very limited resources, yet they had managed to galvanise their troops into some success, ...............so each appointment to the Saint's position has been made with some hope that they can transfer that man management / ability into resurrecting the players on the parole in Paisley. 

Our decline has been overseen by a management structure that quite simply had lost interest in the club. They wanted out over a long period and that lethargy and malaise filtered its way down to the playing staff and I probably bet the toilet cleaner as well!  So we are where we are and whilst I've never quite signed in to the fan ownership model as being the best for the club, you have to hope that the enthusiasm within any new regime will eventually filter its way down to the troops, but I think it will be a very slow process!

[windae cleaner]

53 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I would take the bet on any of the three you mention the results would have been better. In fact I could have done better, or at least as bad.

On Gus i would disagree

His teams need a decent defence which you notice we don't have

In midfield he always had 2 water carriers who weren't afraid to leave their foot in

We don't have either

The squad is a shambles they are either youngsters or in their 30's

No one in their mid 20's where players peak

I honestly think Rae wasn't giving a feck due to knowing the chairman didn't want him

He didn't make much of a fuss when he left

Just one comment that club was in a bad state

[Lord Pityme]

1 hour ago, The Original 59er said:

What you seem to be relying on in placing your bet is that over a succession of several managers the team have been playing poorly, deteriorating and ultimately failing.

Now I accept that as a generality none of the incumbents have / had a long track record but they had been relatively successful at clubs with very limited resources, yet they had managed to galvanise their troops into some success, ...............so each appointment to the Saint's position has been made with some hope that they can transfer that man management / ability into resurrecting the players on the parole in Paisley. 

Our decline has been overseen by a management structure that quite simply had lost interest in the club. They wanted out over a long period and that lethargy and malaise filtered its way down to the playing staff and I probably bet the toilet cleaner as well!  So we are where we are and whilst I've never quite signed in to the fan ownership model as being the best for the club, you have to hope that the enthusiasm within any new regime will eventually filter its way down to the troops, but I think it will be a very slow process!

Our decline is down to recruting rookie, or failed managers and hoping somehow it will work for them here. That and sacking any manager that records any realistic achievement for our club.

McPherson, binned, Lennon, binned, Rae steadies the ship in half a season, then gets binned after six games!

Craig, failed rookie, Teale, rookie, Murray, failed rookie, Ross, failing rookie..... it aint rocket science FFS, punters pick winners at the bookies everyday with little or no knowledge.

[Soctty]

25 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

Our decline is down to recruting rookie, or failed managers and hoping somehow it will work for them here. That and sacking any manager that records any realistic achievement for our club.

McPherson, binned, Lennon, binned, Rae steadies the ship in half a season, then gets binned after six games!

Craig, failed rookie, Teale, rookie, Murray, failed rookie, Ross, failing rookie..... it aint rocket science FFS, punters pick winners at the bookies everyday with little or no knowledge.

Craig - 6 months. Teale - 6 months. Murray - 6 months. Rae - 9 months.

 

Another thing that isn't rocket science is that giving a manager 6 months to fix something that is in decline won't get any results. One manager is left with the last manager's failing players.

 

At some stage we have to keep faith with a manager. I could go into a diatribe about how we deserve this for our treatment of Danny Lennon, just as we might have deserved what we got 25 years earlier for our treatment of Alex Smith, but I'll give it a miss.

 

In short, get behind the manager, all pull in the same direction, support the club, and maybe we might achieve something.

[Lord Pityme]

1 hour ago, Soctty said:

Craig - 6 months. Teale - 6 months. Murray - 6 months. Rae - 9 months.

 

Another thing that isn't rocket science is that giving a manager 6 months to fix something that is in decline won't get any results. One manager is left with the last manager's failing players.

 

At some stage we have to keep faith with a manager. I could go into a diatribe about how we deserve this for our treatment of Danny Lennon, just as we might have deserved what we got 25 years earlier for our treatment of Alex Smith, but I'll give it a miss.

 

In short, get behind the manager, all pull in the same direction, support the club, and maybe we might achieve something.

I would qualify that by demanding the board actually pick a manager who has a chance first and foremost, then I will be happy to back him/her. Picking guys who the job is already beyond hasn't worked and wrecks young managers careers.