Our "Shambles" Of A Squad Inherited By Poor-Wee-It's-Not-His-Fault Jack Ross

[Callum Gilhooley]

4 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

Did you point this out at the time they signed? Would you be comfortable if I checked back to quote you during the summer?

As I remember it there weren't many dissenting voices over the summer. Indeed when I posted my critique after the 3-2 win at Livingston I seem to remember many telling me I was wrong. I'm pretty certain you were one of them.

Yeah , Knock yersel out fat boy.  I`ll be here waiting .

[ScotstounSaint]

Must admit, the point made by the OP has crossed my mind as well, albeit without Langfield included.

McKenzie, Quinn, Mallan, Morgan, McAllister, Magennis and Sutton are all decent players. So is Shankland if he can stay off the pies, and I think Walsh has been treated pretty poorly. There's a decent winger there, how Lewis McLear is getting a place on the bench before him is beyond my understanding.

There are issues with the squad, but that team should be doing a hell of a lot better than they are. 

[Stuart Dickson]

38 minutes ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Dont pretend to know the salary Stuart. The facts are we always seem to have a manager on garden leave. Add the managers ruling themselves out of the managers job after speaking to the club. So something is wrong for me that will be the budget. 

The annual accounts show that the club wage bill last season was £1.26m. I'd venture that only two more clubs in this division could afford that Ian. It also says the club had an average of 39 players and 29 management and administration staff. Assuming a number of those admin staff members are part time and that some of the players listed are youth players on apprentice style wages, I'd say that on average St Mirren are paying around £500 - £700 per week to first team squad players - perhaps slightly more to someone like Jamie Langfield who is doing two roles at the club. And when you consider that the club can still get part time players to put their full time careers on hold for a crack at full time football I don't think it's the size of the wages on offer to players that is the problem, it's how it has been spent. 

As for the managers salary, tell me Ian how many do you think in the Championship in Scotland are likely to be earning more than Jack Ross? IIRC the managers that reportedly knocked back the club were Davies and Warnock. Given their careers to date I don't think money was likely to be their biggest motivation for working, or not working, at St Mirren. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[Callum Gilhooley]

18 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

Did you point this out at the time they signed? Would you be comfortable if I checked back to quote you during the summer?

As I remember it there weren't many dissenting voices over the summer. Indeed when I posted my critique after the 3-2 win at Livingston I seem to remember many telling me I was wrong. I'm pretty certain you were one of them.

I thought i`d save you some time. 

As far as i could find, my only comment was on Ben Gordon and i joked that someone would dig & find fault with him and an old firm connection.

For the Record, I like Quinn,Gordon & McKenzie , think they are good players who will do well for us.... when fit !

I have said consistently. 

Webster is slow, uninterested and can go asap.......... i dont care who he played with and what he has achieved IN THE PAST

Gary Irvine likewise is slow and not a natural left back but at least he tries.  Again , i judge him on his performances for us and couldnt give a toss who he has played for.

Langfield is a bombscare. Hes had his chances , just go.

Hutton- because he played for Rankers does not automatically make him a footballer.  When he signed , Paisley saint txt me & my reply was simply....MEH!

My reaction when Clarkson was re-signed was really ??  A flop as a loanee, why did we offer him a contract ?

Was happy to see shanks back- am unhappy about the physical condition he came back in.

Hardie & Walsh . Another couple who i was underwhelmed with when they signed. Cant remember or find any comments i made about them, but both can quite happily return to rankers and wont be missed.

[Bud the Baker]

I remember the "no need to worry, these are just warm-up games" posts after we were put out of the LC at the group stage, ignoring the logic that they were warm-up games for the opposing teams too. 

Any complacency should have been dropped after the opening two league games against Morton & Raith by which time it was quite clear the squad was unbalanced. At that point and with no immediate prospect of Quinn returning I suggested AR should try to return one of the two loanee strikers and beef up the midfield instead - I dunno maybe he did try, but even that early into the season it was time to change plans and shitfest our way to survival.

I still feel the squad has the ability to be where Dunfermline, QotS are right now - we should not be detached by 9 points! The problem is that to bridge that gap we're going to have to perform beyond that level, to the level that Falkik / Morton & Raith have been performing and I think that's beyond the current squad and management team.

As I've said elsewhere I didn't want to sack AR in September, JR wouldn't have been my choice as replacement but we are where we are (statin' the bleedin' obvious) and we should accept that relegation is now the most likely outcome. We've changed managers 5 times in less than 2 ¹⁄₂  years, it's time to change tack and give JR until next December to prove himself.

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by Bud the Baker

[dr rotund]

It is all the so called experienced players that have let us down and i applaud Jack for binning them.

[Stuart Dickson]

39 minutes ago, dr rotund said:

It is all the so called experienced players that have let us down and i applaud Jack for binning them.

Binning them for lesser players is definitely counter productive. 

For me Langfield for all his flaws is a better keeper than Gallagher. He undoubtedly f**ked up badly against Dumbarton but fans seem far too quick to me to point that out whilst happily ignoring his almost world class save earlier in the game. I also can't understand the logic of having three experienced Central Defenders and yet insisting on picking the dodgy inexperienced kid every single week ahead of them. 

Hutton had a bum rap too. Not that he was ever impressive but I don't think he was ever as bad as some fans on here wanted to make out. It's also been very noticeable that the same people willing to slate and condemn Hutton will defend Mallan's god awful performances this season claiming that although Mallan in a central midfielder being played in central midfield his ability to play football is being affected by somehow being played out of position.

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[pozbaird]

2 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Binning them for lesser players is definitely counter productive. 

For me Langfield for all his flaws is a better keeper than Gallagher. He undoubtedly f**ked up badly against Dumbarton but fans seem far too quick to me to point that out whilst happily ignoring his almost world class save earlier in the game. I also can't understand the logic of having three experienced Central Defenders and yet insisting on picking the dodgy inexperienced kid every single week ahead of them. 

Hutton had a bum rap too. Not that he was ever impressive but I don't think he was ever as bad as some fans on here wanted to make out. It's also been very noticeable that the same people willing to slate and condemn Hutton will defend Mallan's god awful performances this season claiming that although Mallan in a central midfielder being played in central midfield his ability to play football is being affected by somehow being played out of position.

 

 

What a shite critique.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

1 hour ago, dr rotund said:

It is all the so called experienced players that have let us down and i applaud Jack for binning them.

It's working a treat for Jack and ourselves too. Played 6, lost 6, scored 2 league goals in 9 hours and conceded 12.

[Tommy]

 In every game I have seen this season, we had had total f*** up by players that has cost us dearly. Top of the list is the terrible pass back by Webster against Raith away. Baird and Gallacher f***ing up against Hibs at home.  Langfield screwing up against Dumbarton at home and Morton away. Baird throwing a punch yesterday. Hutton pass back against the Pars away. Now as you know they are plenty more incident of the players screwing up and they are more to blame than Ross or even Rae. Baird is now going to miss games when all our other C/H are taking turned of being injured. Hope the club fine him the max allowed and they can put that cash toward the a replacement in January

[Dibbles old paperboy]

4 hours ago, Drew said:

It seems to me that Dibble gets his jollies by proferring long-winded, unremittingly negative - and, ultimately, toxic - threads and posts.

I reckon he should find a new hobby.

I would rather get my jollies by posting regularly on the Jack Ross and James Fowler Appreciation Thread (has that disappeared by the way), and was a regular poster on the relevant Danny Lennon thread. 

My view on the squad was I thought we had added better options in defence (where we were weak last year) and up front but I was concerned one of our main weaknesses was midfield where teams seemed able to control the game from there and over run us. I expected Goodwin to be a big miss and thought that given our weaknesses there it might be a priority area to strengthen over the summer. Quinn and Hutton seem to be the main midfield signings, and it is looking like we are depending on Quinn being fit to make us competitive in midfield and allow Hutton to play in a role which suits him better. 

I'd fully accept that while the list of honours for Langfield and Webster looks great on paper they are not good signings. Rae was stuck with Murray giving Langfield a 2 year contract as a keeper and coach but I was surprised when he gave Webster a new deal as I had hoped we might find somone a few years younger and fitter. I was also slighly surprised when Calum Gallagher and David Clarkson were given new deals as both were mostly uninspiring last season.

That said, and while I like Jack Ross's ethos of trying to be more entertaining and salute his decision to blood youngsters when the senior players are not doing the business, I think most managers arriving at a club in our position would concentrate on trying to grind out some results and close the gap on our nearest rivals. I worry that we look quite good in games where we are losing and the onus is on us to grab an equaliser. Teams seem quite happy to sit back and watch us knock the ball around in midfield to no great effect. I worry we looked naive in the 6 pointer games against Dunfermline and Dumbarton, and worry when Ross says his signing targets for January are a left sided defender and strikers. I would say Gary Irvine out of all our defenders is the one who has hit the heights of being OK and going for a left-sided defender only makes sense if Irvine gets moved to right back.  I don't know how Ross can look at our midfield options and not think it is a priority area to overhaul.

[Stu]

2 hours ago, ScotstounSaint said:

Must admit, the point made by the OP has crossed my mind as well, albeit without Langfield included.

McKenzie, Quinn, Mallan, Morgan, McAllister, Magennis and Sutton are all decent players. So is Shankland if he can stay off the pies, and I think Walsh has been treated pretty poorly. There's a decent winger there, how Lewis McLear is getting a place on the bench before him is beyond my understanding.

There are issues with the squad, but that team should be doing a hell of a lot better than they are. 

Agree with most of this and the point of the original post, if not the detail. Rae managed to get a few points points with this squad - nowhere near good enough but a hell of a lot better than Ross has managed. Furthermore, Rae managed two wins from his first three games and that was before he'd had the chance to sign someone.

It amazed me how quick some fans were to say Ross would need to be allowed to build his own squad and the like. He was appointed with the best part of three months to go until the transfer window opened! Folk were effectively writing that time off and you could be forgiven for thinking the club has too given the results since we changed manager!

I agree with a lot of the changes Ross has made. He's changed goalie (although I'm not convinced about either of them), he's ditched Hutton and he's brought in some youngsters who have proven to be better than the experienced heads they replaced. Some things haven't been his fault such as being unable to get a settled defence due to injuries, players being cup tied (mind you, it was him that played Gordon at Alloa) and now suspensions. However, there's other things I find odd such as persisting with Clarkson and then replacing him with Shankland every single time.

Anyone that thinks January is going to magically change things is in for a rude awakening. Who is going to want to come to us that's going to be good enough to make a difference? And any player that does is going to want a fortune. They probably won't be match fit either as they'll be out of contract or out of favour at their current club. No doubt we'll be told to write off January too so that Ross can build his squad and get them to gel.

Depending what happens over the next few weeks, I'd be half tempted to tell the management not to bother making changes in January. Accept we're in an impossible situation, save the cash and blood youngsters who'll be regular starters when we're in League One next season. We're almost certainly going down but that approach would have us in far better shape than wasting money telling the current players to piss off and spending more on new players only to be relegated anyway.

Of course that'll never happened and I'll probably be branded a traitor and accused of treason for even suggesting it.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

When you compare this year's squad with last season's squad, which managed to finish 6th, I would argue that the only 2 players we are missing are Keith Watson and Jim Goodwin. Carswell, Agnew, Howieson, McMullan etc have not been missed in the slightest and on paper replacements are better players.

I don't accept that our squad is so bad, for Championship level, that we can't cope with teams like Ayr United, Dumbarton and Dunfemline, and a mid-table team like Morton are now almost out of our league. I don't accept that Jack Ross can be absolved of any blame for results until a wee while after the January window. When Ross was appointed, yes we were bottom, but almost three quarters of the season was left to play, there wasn't a big gap between us and our nearest rivals and however inbalanced our squad is I am sure many of us hoped that by Christmas the new manager bounce might see us off bottom spot and on our way to safety.

[DLBud]

When you compare this year's squad with last season's squad, which managed to finish 6th, I would argue that the only 2 players we are missing are Keith Watson and Jim Goodwin. Carswell, Agnew, Howieson, McMullan etc have not been missed in the slightest and on paper replacements are better players.

I don't accept that our squad is so bad, for Championship level, that we can't cope with teams like Ayr United, Dumbarton and Dunfemline, and a mid-table team like Morton are now almost out of our league. I don't accept that Jack Ross can be absolved of any blame for results until a wee while after the January window. When Ross was appointed, yes we were bottom, but almost three quarters of the season was left to play, there wasn't a big gap between us and our nearest rivals and however inbalanced our squad is I am sure many of us hoped that by Christmas the new manager bounce might see us off bottom spot and on our way to safety.

Carswell, Agnew and Howieson would walk into this shitfest with ease.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Just now, DLBud said:

 

Carswell, Agnew and Howieson would walk into this shitfest with ease.

 

Really? Wouldn't that mean replacing our sole rays of hope in the form of Morgan, McAllister and Magennis our development players who are showing the senior pros how it is done?

[DLBud]

Your sarcasm is misplaced here mate. None of the boys you mentioned have done enough to guarantee games at this level despite showing the occasional flash of ability.

Now if you want to lay the blame for our current predicament at Jack Ross' door then fill your boots but the malaise has been brewing for a long time and, at the end of this season, when the blame for relegation is being meted out by such as yourself you'd do well to remember that.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

2 minutes ago, DLBud said:

Your sarcasm is misplaced here mate. None of the boys you mentioned have done enough to guarantee games at this level despite showing the occasional flash of ability.

Now if you want to lay the blame for our current predicament at Jack Ross' door then fill your boots but the malaise has been brewing for a long time and, at the end of this season, when the blame for relegation is being meted out by such as yourself you'd do well to remember that.

And you think Agnew, Carswell, Howieson and McMullan were better? McMullan is usually a sub at Dunfermline, Agnew went part time again and dropped down to play with Stranraer.

[DLBud]

I left McMullan out of my post so don't try to sneak him in. In my opinion the other three are better than I'm watching this season.

Incidentally, the "Agnew went part time argument" is totally f**kjng irrelevant and is completely at odds with your original post highlighting the experience in he squad.

Can't have it both ways.

[spankin_panda]

What I feel a bit frustrated with is the players who either seem to be out of position or not used to full potential (Mallan for example).

 

Also, the shape/formation - I am perplexed at it week in/week out. These are things JR needs to take accountability for.

 

I admit that I was hopeful and optimistic in the summer. I think the squads poor but the way they are being played/used is making it worse.

[Stuart Dickson]

7 minutes ago, spankin_panda said:

What I feel a bit frustrated with is the players who either seem to be out of position or not used to full potential (Mallan for example).

 

Also, the shape/formation - I am perplexed at it week in/week out. These are things JR needs to take accountability for.

 

I admit that I was hopeful and optimistic in the summer. I think the squads poor but the way they are being played/used is making it worse.

You're right. Mallan should be in his right position.....cleaning boots in the dressing room for real footballers.  

[St.Ricky]

Well - Here I go again.

Putting my helmet on for the flack that will come my way.

I like the way Jack Ross has the guys at his disposal playing football.

The first 30 minutes at Falkirk was a joy to watch as we zipped the ball about.

I like the approach of bringing the young guys in.

I agree that several of the experienced players seem to be injury prone.

I do think we will move on a number of players in the January window.

I then expect us to move up the table to safety before the end of the season but accept it will not be easy.

[billyg]

12 hours ago, Callum Gilhooley said:

I love how the OP simply lists the clubs players have played for previously as if it is some sort of guarantee of said players ability & neglects to mention than many of those players are past it / never reached it / or simply shite.

 

 

 

Of course , and it doesn't matter how many "stars" we have in the team if there's an imbalance in the squad , as I heard being pointed out to our beloved previous manager after the 1-1 draw with Morton , while we were still in a transfer window with a chance to redress the imbalance. He denied it of course 'cos he's a f**kin balloon ! At least 8 of that squad mentioned by the op won't kick a first team ball again after January , with good reason !

[windae cleaner]

I see Hardie scored a hat trick for Sevco u/20s yesterday

The boy hasn't broke into a fast jog for us a complete non trier

[Bud the Baker]

8 minutes ago, windae cleaner said:

I see Hardie scored a hat trick for Sevco u/20s yesterday

The boy hasn't broke into a fast jog for us a complete non trier

Does that mean he's no longer with Saints?

[RussellV1]

1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

Does that mean he's no longer with Saints?

He's on a development loan to us, means you can still play for the parent clubs Youth team