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TopCat

Jack Ross Must Go.

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For people comparing Rae's record in the league this season with Ross's and trying to make the point that Ross's 0.17% better points tally is an improvement over Rae, it is still nowhere near good enough and has been achieved while having less injuries to contend with. Quinn was out injured for all of Rae's 6 games, MacKenzie was injured for the first month, Gordon too, Morgan missed a few games as did Calum Gallagher and Kyle McAllister was out injured for all of Rae's time this season.

Most people agree having Quinn 'fit' and available for 60 minutes per game seems to make a difference to performances and results and would also no doubt say MacKenzie has probably been possibly our best defender this season and Morgan and McAllister have been our best young players. It should hardly be a huge surprise Jack's results have the edge over Alex's given what they have to work with on match days.  Ross has had Ben Gordon's longer term injury to deal with and trying to nurse Quinn through the season but has had more or less a full squad to choose from.

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31 minutes ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

For people comparing Rae's record in the league this season with Ross's and trying to make the point that Ross's 0.17% better points tally is an improvement over Rae, it is still nowhere near good enough and has been achieved while having less injuries to contend with. Quinn was out injured for all of Rae's 6 games, MacKenzie was injured for the first month, Gordon too, Morgan missed a few games as did Calum Gallagher and Kyle McAllister was out injured for all of Rae's time this season.

Most people agree having Quinn 'fit' and available for 60 minutes per game seems to make a difference to performances and results and would also no doubt say MacKenzie has probably been possibly our best defender this season and Morgan and McAllister have been our best young players. It should hardly be a huge surprise Jack's results have the edge over Alex's given what they have to work with on match days.  Ross has had Ben Gordon's longer term injury to deal with and trying to nurse Quinn through the season but has had more or less a full squad to choose from.

Dont see the point of my 1kg of sugar waight is heavier than your 1kg of sugar in this instance.  The sooner fans realise there will be no sacking of the manager the better . Not because I think he is the right man our finances dictate it. Being critical is one thing, calling for something that is not going to happen is crazy. 

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Sacking another manager after such a short time will send out a message that unless you improve the team with basically the same squad of players then you have 3-4 months in the job.  Not happy where we are but we must give JR time to get his own team in place. We have to stick with him.

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3 minutes ago, nedflanders123 said:

Sacking another manager after such a short time will send out a message that unless you improve the team with basically the same squad of players then you have 3-4 months in the job.  Not happy where we are but we must give JR time to get his own team in place. We have to stick with him.

Good to see you back . 

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The bit in Bold : Where have i ever stated it was good ? It isnt good , we are in a perilous state . However you & your somewhat irrational hatred of Jack Ross stated this in your initial post . quote : Since Jack Ross has arrived results have went downhill rapidly.

This simply is not true. As i have pointed out , points wise things have improved. As Cockles pointed out using your points per game average things have got better. However our league position has worsened because others have improved more than us thus leaving us rooted.

In my opinion, the performances in general have improved, albeit Saturday was an absolute mess. The FACTS show our points haul IS better.

Okay points per game average under Rae was 1.26. Points per game average under Ross is 0.67. A drop of almost 50%, downhill rapidly indeed.

What's even more concerning is that Jack has had a remarkably kind fixture list in his first twelve matches. He's already had the four teams immediately above us at home.

Dumbarton, Dunfermline, Ayr and Queen of the South have all came to Paisley. His return from these four vital home 'six pointers'? One draw and three defeats. And the draw only came after Ayr got a dodgy red card and we managed to snatch an equaliser.

That's an almost unbelievably poor return. Not even the most gloomy fan could have dreamt up us only getting one point from those four games.

One thing I found interesting from the post match fall out after we managed to throw away two points at home to ten man Morton last week was the reports from fans sitting in the main stand. They said that Jack was repeatedly telling the team to push up, but was being ignored.

How concerning is that? We have a manager who - by his own admission - can't motivate the players to play to their full potential for him. Not only this, but according to fans the players ignore his in game instructions from the sideline.

There's quite clearly some leadership/respect issues going on there. It's little wonder we are where we are.

Those issues become more apparent when you contrast his initial impact this season with Raes last season. Quick caveat, I'm no Rae fan and thought his sacking was the right call at the time. However, when he came in last December there was a clear upturn in the clubs fortunes with largely the same group of players he inherited.

The football didn't improve, we were brutal to watch before and after he arrived. However, he managed to get the players playing for him. He organised and motivated them and as a result we stayed up comfortably.

There's clearly going to be no mass clear out or mass arrivals in this window. Jack simply had to do what Rae did and get the players he inherited playing for him, and he simply hasn't.

What Ross does have going for him is the fact that we have went through so many managers recently. Therefore he's getting a level of patience that wasn't shown to Craig, Teale, Murray and even Rae to an extent. Lucky man!

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For people comparing Rae's record in the league this season with Ross's and trying to make the point that Ross's 0.17% better points tally is an improvement over Rae, it is still nowhere near good enough and has been achieved while having less injuries to contend with. Quinn was out injured for all of Rae's 6 games, MacKenzie was injured for the first month, Gordon too, Morgan missed a few games as did Calum Gallagher and Kyle McAllister was out injured for all of Rae's time this season.
Most people agree having Quinn 'fit' and available for 60 minutes per game seems to make a difference to performances and results and would also no doubt say MacKenzie has probably been possibly our best defender this season and Morgan and McAllister have been our best young players. It should hardly be a huge surprise Jack's results have the edge over Alex's given what they have to work with on match days.  Ross has had Ben Gordon's longer term injury to deal with and trying to nurse Quinn through the season but has had more or less a full squad to choose from.


I understand your argument but the first paragraph relating to the improvement is what I have taken issue with since TCs initial post . As I said previously JRs record is still not good enough and we are in a perilous position but facts are facts there has been an improvement.... albeit very small but an improvement none the less . TC stated that results had gone downhill rapidly. - That is not true . He is letting his irrational hatred of JR get in the way of fact . We could argue till the cows come home about which players were available but you forget one thing AR had the opportunity to rectify the shortcomings during close season JR hasn't had that yet and needs to be given till at least the end of the window to attempt to rectify the squad imbalance . The last sentence ? Yes he has more or less a full squad to chose from ..... but what a squad !!!

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Generally I think it sends out all the right signals when we honour the length of a manager's contract and when manager's are in place for a decent length of time to take more than a short term view of what needs done at the club.

Having said that, and also having said I'd like Jack Ross to succeed for us and keep us up this season and take us back to the SPL in he next few seasons, I don't think JR should be bulletproof no matter what the results. I don't accept we have the worst squad in the league or that when Ross came in with 28 games left and teams like Dumbarton had a 2 point start on us and Ayr had 4 points more that those teams were uncatchable because of the squad Ross inherited.

My preferred option remains Jack Ross keeps us up this season. My next option is we go down narrowly. If we are relegated by a country mile and continue to lose two thirds of our league games under Jack Ross this season and don't win any of the key games left I would genuinely wonder if Ross can win us a promotion next year. Had we appointed a Jimmy Calderwood or Terry Butcher in October (or given Alex Rae more time) I don't think the gap between ourselves and the rest of the league would be as bad as it look now and I would have been very confident Calderwood or Butcher could have had us off bottom place by now instead of looking like it will take a medium-sized miracle to escape the drop now.

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1 hour ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

Generally I think it sends out all the right signals when we honour the length of a manager's contract and when manager's are in place for a decent length of time to take more than a short term view of what needs done at the club.

Having said that, and also having said I'd like Jack Ross to succeed for us and keep us up this season and take us back to the SPL in he next few seasons, I don't think JR should be bulletproof no matter what the results. I don't accept we have the worst squad in the league or that when Ross came in with 28 games left and teams like Dumbarton had a 2 point start on us and Ayr had 4 points more that those teams were uncatchable because of the squad Ross inherited.

My preferred option remains Jack Ross keeps us up this season. My next option is we go down narrowly. If we are relegated by a country mile and continue to lose two thirds of our league games under Jack Ross this season and don't win any of the key games left I would genuinely wonder if Ross can win us a promotion next year. Had we appointed a Jimmy Calderwood or Terry Butcher in October (or given Alex Rae more time) I don't think the gap between ourselves and the rest of the league would be as bad as it look now and I would have been very confident Calderwood or Butcher could have had us off bottom place by now instead of looking like it will take a medium-sized miracle to escape the drop now.

Ifs buts and maybes

We do have the worst squad in the league

The league table doesn't lie

Butcher took down Hibs when he came in and told a few home truths to the squad he inherited

I think a few of our squad know they won't be here and it's shown in their performances

Quinn and McKenzie are very injury prone

Clarkson imo is carrying an injury and barely runs

Webster is just topping up his pension and looks like he can't be bothered about win bonuses

Naismith has signed pre-season with another club

Mallan knows there's interest in him even though he's having a poor season

We are left with kids to get us out of hole because they are just starting out and there's going dips in their performances

Just a shite state of affairs

The best manager of all time said it's your signings that determines your success

Until Jack Ross gets a chance to build his team i will judge him,not with this lot

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2 hours ago, nedflanders123 said:

Sacking another manager after such a short time will send out a message that unless you improve the team with basically the same squad of players then you have 3-4 months in the job.  Not happy where we are but we must give JR time to get his own team in place. We have to stick with him.

you're the king of the happy clappers

if you had your way, Tommy Craig would still be in charge!

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3 minutes ago, mcdowell76 said:

you're the king of the happy clappers

if you had your way, Tommy Craig would still be in charge!

He's right though. We must persevere with Ross for the time being, regardless of what league we're in....we've gone from being one of the most patient clubs in Scotland to the least patient in managerial terms. This merry go round of bagging managers has to stop, I certainly can't see him going anywhere until at least a quarter of the way through NEXT season. If we're struggling by that point (be it in L1 or the Championship) that's when the trigger will be pulled on him.

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A lot of comparisons going here between Rae and Ross and the duds they had/have to work with. I haven’t seen any home games this season so I can’t claim to be an authority on overall form or team performances but I have been to the two games played on this side of the country namely Easter Road and noted one or two things. Alan McManus managed to knock Hibs out of the cup with these duds. They even fought back from 1-0 down and players like Clarkson and Hutton all played their socks off. Ok it wasn’t a league game and the pressure was off but the players showed they do have what it takes to beat the top teams in our league never mind the bottom ones. I returned to Easter Road to watch the team under Jack Ross but sadly there was only ever going to be one winner that day. Martin Boyle ran rings around us and we were never at the races. Rae went and Ross must be held accountable for lack of player motivation. Someone should ask Alan McManus how he got them up for the Cup game.

Overall I quite like cut of Jack Ross’s Gib. He talks a good game and seems to have improved performances so I hope his tactical awareness and man management skills will come good. The general thought is we can’t keep sacking managers but Top Cat has a point in that a manager without these core leadership skills is worse than useless. We are not dead yet though so whilst it is mathematically possible to survive, let’s get behind Ross and hopefully in the process his leadership skills will improve and he will get us out this mess.

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redundant word
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The two things I would criticise Ross for so far are: not making the best of the squad he inherited. Whether or not he was over-paid, whether or not he should have been in the starting XI every week, most weeks when Tom Walsh played he did us a turn and sometimes scored the occasional vital goal. Walsh may well finish the season making more of a goal contribution in the league than Clarkson, Gallagher and Shankland, possibly than all 3 combined. Walsh had a dire first half against Morton, so did others. I still don't see what Walsh did that was so bad that required him to be frozen out matchday squads for the last two months of his time with us, especially when it meant one of our better attacking midfield options from the bench had disappeared. I also don't think Ross is getting the best out of most of the squad. Naismith made a dramatic improvement under Ross, but guys like Shankland, Gallagher, Mallan have looked a shadow of the players they were last season (even though last season they were hardly outstanding).

I also worry that so far Jack Ross seems to lack the nous required to get results in a lot of tight games. OK we have won away at Queen of the South, ground out a 1-0 win against Raith at home as well and beaten Ayr in the cup. A lot of teams seems able to see out close games or win or be more clinical and take the points at the end of the day.

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3 hours ago, TopCat said:

Okay points per game average under Rae was 1.26. Points per game average under Ross is 0.67. A drop of almost 50%, downhill rapidly indeed.

What's even more concerning is that Jack has had a remarkably kind fixture list in his first twelve matches. He's already had the four teams immediately above us at home.

Dumbarton, Dunfermline, Ayr and Queen of the South have all came to Paisley. His return from these four vital home 'six pointers'? One draw and three defeats. And the draw only came after Ayr got a dodgy red card and we managed to snatch an equaliser.

That's an almost unbelievably poor return. Not even the most gloomy fan could have dreamt up us only getting one point from those four games.

One thing I found interesting from the post match fall out after we managed to throw away two points at home to ten man Morton last week was the reports from fans sitting in the main stand. They said that Jack was repeatedly telling the team to push up, but was being ignored.

How concerning is that? We have a manager who - by his own admission - can't motivate the players to play to their full potential for him. Not only this, but according to fans the players ignore his in game instructions from the sideline.

There's quite clearly some leadership/respect issues going on there. It's little wonder we are where we are.

Those issues become more apparent when you contrast his initial impact this season with Raes last season. Quick caveat, I'm no Rae fan and thought his sacking was the right call at the time. However, when he came in last December there was a clear upturn in the clubs fortunes with largely the same group of players he inherited.

The football didn't improve, we were brutal to watch before and after he arrived. However, he managed to get the players playing for him. He organised and motivated them and as a result we stayed up comfortably.

There's clearly going to be no mass clear out or mass arrivals in this window. Jack simply had to do what Rae did and get the players he inherited playing for him, and he simply hasn't.

What Ross does have going for him is the fact that we have went through so many managers recently. Therefore he's getting a level of patience that wasn't shown to Craig, Teale, Murray and even Rae to an extent. Lucky man!

Christ sake , would you rather i do it in f**kin crayon for you ?

This season Alex Rae was in charge for 6 Games  he got three points   0.50 points per game  NOT 1.26

With the same squad Jack Ross has been in charge for 12 Games  he has got 8 Points   0.67 points per game

AN INCREASE OF from .50 to .67 , YES IT IS A VERY SMALL INCREASE BUT IT IS STILL AN INCREASE.

And yet again i say...... we clearly are not doing well enough and are in the shit but we are still doing better than under Rae this season.

 

If you want to bring last season into the equation , i`m sorry its not valid.... unless you also give JR the squad that was available then.

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22 minutes ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

The two things I would criticise Ross for so far are: not making the best of the squad he inherited. Whether or not he was over-paid, whether or not he should have been in the starting XI every week, most weeks when Tom Walsh played he did us a turn and sometimes scored the occasional vital goal. Walsh may well finish the season making more of a goal contribution in the league than Clarkson, Gallagher and Shankland, possibly than all 3 combined. Walsh had a dire first half against Morton, so did others. I still don't see what Walsh did that was so bad that required him to be frozen out matchday squads for the last two months of his time with us, especially when it meant one of our better attacking midfield options from the bench had disappeared. I also don't think Ross is getting the best out of most of the squad. Naismith made a dramatic improvement under Ross, but guys like Shankland, Gallagher, Mallan have looked a shadow of the players they were last season (even though last season they were hardly outstanding).

I also worry that so far Jack Ross seems to lack the nous required to get results in a lot of tight games. OK we have won away at Queen of the South, ground out a 1-0 win against Raith at home as well and beaten Ayr in the cup. A lot of teams seems able to see out close games or win or be more clinical and take the points at the end of the day.

On the Tom Walsh matter

I would agree he was one of the better signings

I remember Ross saying after the Morton game he would only play people who were willing to play for St Mirren

I can only guess that Walsh made comments in the dressing room and Hutton as well as they were bombed out

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Points wise there has been a marginal improvement due to 2 back to back wins.

Rae's league record this season: Played 6, Won 0, Drew 3, Lost 3

Ross league record with us this season: Played 12, Won 2, Drew 2, Lost 8. I'm glad we won the games against Queen of the South and hung on for the 1-0 at home against Raith. Had Mallan not hit an injury time winner against QOTS Ross would have the same average as Rae, with more of the squad to work with.

Anyway, here hoping Ross's average points per game continues to improve in the remaining 16 games.

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31 minutes ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

The two things I would criticise Ross for so far are: not making the best of the squad he inherited. Whether or not he was over-paid, whether or not he should have been in the starting XI every week, most weeks when Tom Walsh played he did us a turn and sometimes scored the occasional vital goal. Walsh may well finish the season making more of a goal contribution in the league than Clarkson, Gallagher and Shankland, possibly than all 3 combined. Walsh had a dire first half against Morton, so did others. I still don't see what Walsh did that was so bad that required him to be frozen out matchday squads for the last two months of his time with us, especially when it meant one of our better attacking midfield options from the bench had disappeared. I also don't think Ross is getting the best out of most of the squad. Naismith made a dramatic improvement under Ross, but guys like Shankland, Gallagher, Mallan have looked a shadow of the players they were last season (even though last season they were hardly outstanding).

I also worry that so far Jack Ross seems to lack the nous required to get results in a lot of tight games. OK we have won away at Queen of the South, ground out a 1-0 win against Raith at home as well and beaten Ayr in the cup. A lot of teams seems able to see out close games or win or be more clinical and take the points at the end of the day.

Think Walsh was injured for a good part of that period, but regardless, he wasn't as good as Kyle McAllister anyway.

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4 minutes ago, windae cleaner said:

On the Tom Walsh matter

I would agree he was one of the better signings

I remember Ross saying after the Morton game he would only play people who were willing to play for St Mirren

I can only guess that Walsh made comments in the dressing room and Hutton as well as they were bombed out

Jamie Langfield has volunteered not to play in the starting XI again and continues to pick up his full wage as a player / coach. As far as Hutton goes I think Ross took the view that the player's confidence was low, the crowd were on his back, he was being rested on the bench at us and an emergency loan gave him some time away playing first team football in a different environment and he might return fit and confident and in a better place to contribute after his loan spell ends. I certainly didn't conclude he had said he didn't want to play for us and had been bombed out.

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5 minutes ago, div said:

Think Walsh was injured for a good part of that period, but regardless, he wasn't as good as Kyle McAllister anyway.

Would agree on McAllister being the better of the two, would say Morgan has been inconsistent and Walsh could have been a decent sub option (when he wasn't injured).

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5 minutes ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

Jamie Langfield has volunteered not to play in the starting XI again and continues to pick up his full wage as a player / coach. As far as Hutton goes I think Ross took the view that the player's confidence was low, the crowd were on his back, he was being rested on the bench at us and an emergency loan gave him some time away playing first team football in a different environment and he might return fit and confident and in a better place to contribute after his loan spell ends. I certainly didn't conclude he had said he didn't want to play for us and had been bombed out.

How long is Hutton loan for?

I don't rate him but he's a better option than Clarkson in midfield this moment

It's just my opinion that Walsh and Hutton have spoke out of turn

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1 hour ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

Would agree on McAllister being the better of the two, would say Morgan has been inconsistent and Walsh could have been a decent sub option (when he wasn't injured).

Yes that is definitely fair. Morgan was really poor the last two games in particular. Mallan and Magennis not a whole lot better if we are being honest.

I don't blame them. They are young players getting very little help or support within the team.

If we had a defence we could rely on then perhaps we could revert to just playing one holding midfielder and get back to playing two up front.

I like John Sutton, and think he should start every week, but I think he'd be so much better with a strike partner alongside him.

Whether Shankland is that man is another question right enough.

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This season:
Alex Rae :    6 games -   18 points possible 3 points attained
Jack Ross : 12 Games - 36 Points Possible 8 points attained
So , Stephen f**king Hawking...... please explain how that is results going downhill rapidly ?


Because Rae was our manager before this season. You are only looking at his bad spell and ignoring his decent results.
Whereas Ross has had nothing but a bad spell.

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During the Murray, Rae and Ross reigns, most (but not all) on here thought that they were not bad appointments (initially at least) and were willing to give them a chance.

As time passed and our deterioration continued at a pace not witnessed on the playing field, opinions changed with the benefit of hindsight and like all managers of St Mirren in recent times they were then written off as abject failures and 'bad appointments'. It could be argued that only Hendrie and MacPherson have achieved any semblance of success in the past 20 years or so, and in the previous 20 or so years to that a certain Alex Ferguson, Ricky McFarlane and Jim Clunie, could claim likewise. In fact since 1970 (when Wilson Humphries was manager) we have had 22 managers over a period of 46 years - an average time in charge of 2 years per manager.

Gus McPherson enjoyed nearly 7 years in charge and kept St Mirren at a level we can only dream about now. In the 6 and a half years since then we have had 7 managers (if you include Allan McManus) - with an average time in charge of less than a year over that period. Also during that time we moved to a dinky wee stadium appropriate for junior football (or 3rd tier senior football) and we have ended up playing that grade of football.

We now have a situation where (in 2 months time) the likes of Ross County, Hamilton Accies, Patrick Thistle and Kilmarnock, could be 2 leagues ahead of St Mirren - the club from the largest town in Scotland outside the city clubs.

We all have our opinion as to who is to blame for our current predicament but one thing is for certain IT IS NOT JACK ROSS!

Yes he can shoulder the blame (along with the senior players in the squad) for the current run of poor results but he must be given time to turn things around and I personally believe he has the potential/ability to do that along with James Fowler. Unfortunately we may have to drop down to the third level before things start to improve.

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Just now, ScotstounSaint said:

 


Because Rae was our manager before this season. You are only looking at his bad spell and ignoring his decent results.
Whereas Ross has had nothing but a bad spell.

 

Thats why i said "this season!!"

Its only right that this is where the comparison should be. As i said, if you take last seasons results into account you need to then take into account the squad he had last year.

Again , as i pointed out JR obviously cant be judged against AR last season because he never had the chance to play with that squad. If you want to take it to a ridiculous degree, why not count JRs results at Alloa while Rae was f**king us up ? 

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18 minutes ago, ScotstounSaint said:

 


Because Rae was our manager before this season. You are only looking at his bad spell and ignoring his decent results.
Whereas Ross has had nothing but a bad spell.

 

Just saw that one !  Really ?

You accuse me of only looking at his bad spell yet say Ross has only had bad ??

http://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=scotland2

The facts are there for those who want to see.

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24 minutes ago, northstbuddie said:

During the Murray, Rae and Ross reigns, most (but not all) on here thought that they were not bad appointments (initially at least) and were willing to give them a chance.

As time passed and our deterioration continued at a pace not witnessed on the playing field, opinions changed with the benefit of hindsight and like all managers of St Mirren in recent times they were then written off as abject failures and 'bad appointments'. It could be argued that only Hendrie and MacPherson have achieved any semblance of success in the past 20 years or so, and in the previous 20 or so years to that a certain Alex Ferguson, Ricky McFarlane and Jim Clunie, could claim likewise. In fact since 1970 (when Wilson Humphries was manager) we have had 22 managers over a period of 46 years - an average time in charge of 2 years per manager.

Gus McPherson enjoyed nearly 7 years in charge and kept St Mirren at a level we can only dream about now. In the 6 and a half years since then we have had 7 managers (if you include Allan McManus) - with an average time in charge of less than a year over that period. Also during that time we moved to a dinky wee stadium appropriate for junior football (or 3rd tier senior football) and we have ended up playing that grade of football.

We now have a situation where (in 2 months time) the likes of Ross County, Hamilton Accies, Patrick Thistle and Kilmarnock, could be 2 leagues ahead of St Mirren - the club from the largest town in Scotland outside the city clubs.

We all have our opinion as to who is to blame for our current predicament but one thing is for certain IT IS NOT JACK ROSS!

Yes he can shoulder the blame (along with the senior players in the squad) for the current run of poor results but he must be given time to turn things around and I personally believe he has the potential/ability to do that along with James Fowler. Unfortunately we may have to drop down to the third level before things start to improve.

In the most part a good post. Stadium wise we can't even half fill it . So it covers  our needs.  Each management team has a budget to work on. Most of our managers said we cant compete.  Danny did not and so far Jack has not said anything though im sure Jack is finding out now its not easy.  We have to realise we are a small club top league wise , third or forth championship wise. This i think is what Saints fans need a reality check. Bottom of the championship is not acceptable, however we are where we are we need to back tbe team and .manager. Its hard I know but we have been here before in my life time worse in fact. We will bounce back make no mistake. 

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