In Jack I Believe

[mcdowell76]

Just now, Drew said:

Was there not a back story to the Falkirk game? One of their players having a go in the press or something along those lines. I'm sure there was a grudge thing associated with the game that served to fire players and supporters up.

I don't think any amount of pep talking to Webster, Irvine, Sutton et al will transform them into cheat-beating Spartacus figures. 

Steven Pressley said before the game that he could "guarantee" that Falkirk wouldn't get relegated!

[Edinbuddie]

Surely Jack Ross' primary remit on being awarded the gig was to get us OFF bottom spot, and as such, has failed. Christ almighty, even a wee bit of new manager bounce might have seen us a bit closer to the teams above us. Jack was a St Mirren player in teams who needed big performances themselves to avoid the drop, and Jack himself turned in a super performance at Falkirk where Gus MacPherson must have really rallied his troops - one of Gus' finest afternoons. We came out battling and all guns blazing. Jack was a big part of that so he knows what is required in this situation. Where's the fight? Where's the 'all guns blazing' attitude? 
In short, and this could be aimed at several of our recent managers to be fair... just what the fcuk goes on at Ralston all bloody week? At least the shite 90s teams tried.

I agree with this, and like the rest of us, he knows that yesterday's performance was unacceptable. Just like the performance at Cappielow was unacceptable. There was no urgency in the first half yesterday, it was a flat game and that can't be accepted in the position we're in.

In both of those games, I didn't see the slightest sign that there was anyone on the pitch who was prepared to roll up their sleeves, make a run or fire into a tackle and lead by example. That's embarrassing and unacceptable for a team with so many experienced players. It's hard not to come to the conclusion that many of them simply don't give a f**k, and I think when JR said he'd queried if they were hurting as much as him, that's what he's alluding to.

I'd question whether Rae wanted a leader on the park because he got rid of Goodwin as soon as he could and his captains - Webster and Irvine - aren't leaders. Andy Millen, Goodwin, Abercrombie and even Shuggy would've set an example and got on to the rest of the players. There are no leaders on the park, we're too old or too nice or too tired.

[Lord Pityme]

There was me thinking it was the manager that decided to pull off a good youngster yesterday to replace him with Clarkson, and the same manager who made a similiar pigs ear of substitutions in the Morton... but apparently he is in no way responsible for anything that doesn't work out.

by the same token i guess he played no part in our only two wins this season as it 'isnt his squad' and 'its up to the players on the park'.

all a bit confusing really?

[mcdowell76]

2 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

There was me thinking it was the manager that decided to pull off a good youngster yesterday

 

 

ooooer missus!

[John Gotti]

1 minute ago, Edinbuddie said:

I'd question whether Rae wanted a leader on the park because he got rid of Goodwin as soon as he could and his captains - Webster and Irvine - aren't leaders. Andy Millen, Goodwin, Abercrombie and even Shuggy would've set an example and got on to the rest of the players. There are no leaders on the park, we're too old or too nice or too tired.

I put this down to Rae being a bully type, so having a hard man in the team meant having someone he might not be able to intimidate in the dressing room. I always got the impression Rae was a hard man and Faz was his hauners

[Dibbles old paperboy]

49 minutes ago, Edinbuddie said:

We were bottom of the league when Rae was sacked. We're still bottom of the league. The only constant this season has been the players. That tells me that the problem lies in that dressing room.

We have plenty of known names with decent reputations in the squad but the majority of them are well over the hill. The make up of the squad is all wrong and that's down to the previous management.

 

And since we have such a rubbish squad, can you tell me how many Dumbarton and Ayr players are the subject of enquiries from SPL clubs, English Championship and EPL teams like Naismith, Mallan and McAllister have been, and yet we have such a bad squad it is no wonder we are the best part of 10 points behind a part time team like Dumbarton.

I'll quite happily state now that as well as Naismith, Mallan and McAllister being good enough to play at a higher level I'm sure Magennis and Morgan also fall into the bracket, and while he hasn't made it at Aberdeen, Shankland is fine at Championship level at least.

[Drew]

14 minutes ago, mcdowell76 said:

Steven Pressley said before the game that he could "guarantee" that Falkirk wouldn't get relegated!

I think there was something else, though. A bit more niggly.

[Drew]

1 minute ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

And since we have such a rubbish squad, can you tell me how many Dumbarton and Ayr players are the subject of enquiries from SPL clubs, English Championship and EPL teams like Naismith, Mallan and McAllister have been, and yet we have such a bad squad it is no wonder we are the best part of 10 points behind a part time team like Dumbarton.

I'll quite happily state now that as well as Naismith, Mallan and McAllister being good enough to play at a higher level I'm sure Magennis and Morgan also fall into the bracket, and while he hasn't made it at Aberdeen, Shankland is fine at Championship level at least.

The very fact that you haven't referred to a player over 23 in amongst that lot is telling in itself. These young guys aren't the problem.

[pozbaird]

13 minutes ago, Drew said:

Was there not a back story to the Falkirk game? One of their players having a go in the press or something along those lines. I'm sure there was a grudge thing associated with the game that served to fire players and supporters up.

I don't think any amount of pep talking to Webster, Irvine, Sutton et al will transform them into chest-beating Spartacus figures. 

 

Well Drew, Jack Ross cannot do much about the inherent skill levels of Webster, Langfield, Sutton, Quinn, Clarkson or Irvine. He cannot do anything if they pick up an injury and aren't 100%. Jack Ross cannot do a helluva' lot if the opposition are simply too good on the day and play great football to beat us. Jack Ross however, should at the very MINIMUM, be able to rouse his most experienced players for one final push, as we face the third tier for the first time in our history. If he cannot do that - have us go down fighting, then I don't trust him to do much of anything.

[pozbaird]

I have resisted until now... it's time....

 

[Dibbles old paperboy]

10 minutes ago, Edinbuddie said:

I agree with this, and like the rest of us, he knows that yesterday's performance was unacceptable. Just like the performance at Cappielow was unacceptable. There was no urgency in the first half yesterday, it was a flat game and that can't be accepted in the position we're in.

In both of those games, I didn't see the slightest sign that there was anyone on the pitch who was prepared to roll up their sleeves, make a run or fire into a tackle and lead by example. That's embarrassing and unacceptable for a team with so many experienced players. It's hard not to come to the conclusion that many of them simply don't give a f**k, and I think when JR said he'd queried if they were hurting as much as him, that's what he's alluding to.

I'd question whether Rae wanted a leader on the park because he got rid of Goodwin as soon as he could and his captains - Webster and Irvine - aren't leaders. Andy Millen, Goodwin, Abercrombie and even Shuggy would've set an example and got on to the rest of the players. There are no leaders on the park, we're too old or too nice or too tired.

I was, and still am a fan of Jim Goodwin but could see why Rae might want to let him go when his contract expired. If I remember correctly Goodwin picked up an injury  just before Rae was appointed and was going to be out for a few months anyway. He also probably was on one of those contracts that don't do senior players many favours once they hit their mid-30s, play X games and the contract is automatically extended. 

One of the things that has been said for a long while was the need for a proper clear out of the team and Thommo and Goodwin were the last remaining survivors from the Cup Winning team of 4 years ago. Goodwin was also 35 (?) in the summer and getting to the age where he probably only has 1 or 2 seasons left and would want to get into coaching and management and was probably also a high earner.

If I was Alex Rae I'm not sure if I would want to give a new contract to a 35 year old midfielder, with a track record of disciplinary problems partly due to pressing the self-destruct button a few times and partly due to being a target for sneaky opponents and duff referees, and keep him as a high earner when it is less and less likely he can play a full 90 minutes at Championship level anymore.

[Callum Gilhooley]

18 hours ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

If i was Rankin choosing between 7th placed Queen of the South and 10th placed St Mirren 9 points behind Queens and 7 points behind Ayr and 9 behind Dumbarton in 8th place nd safety I'd probably choose the team with the best chance of staying up too! Langfield has volunteered not to play again but is being paid as a keeper and coach... there's 1 high earner I would release without much qualms.

Where do you get this "release him" stuff ? These players have contracts which must be honoured or negotiated out of. We simply dont have the money to pay them off & unless some one wants Clarkson, Langfield Webster etc and are willing to offer them a new contract , why should they go ?

Would you walk out of a well paid job with nowhere else to go ?  I certainly wouldn`t !!

[Dibbles old paperboy]

6 minutes ago, Drew said:

The very fact that you haven't referred to a player over 23 in amongst that lot is telling in itself. These young guys aren't the problem.

So we have 5 teenagers or guys up to the age of 23 who will probably end up at SPL or English Championship or possibly EPL clubs in the next few seasons but we can't expect Jack Ross's inherited shambles of a squad to live with the pace set by Ayr United, Dumbarton, or Dunfermline and we can't expect him to do better than lose two thirds of our league games given what he has to work with.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

3 minutes ago, Callum Gilhooley said:

Where do you get this "release him" stuff ? These players have contracts which must be honoured or negotiated out of. We simply dont have the money to pay them off & unless some one wants Clarkson, Langfield Webster etc and are willing to offer them a new contract , why should they go ?

Would you walk out of a well paid job with nowhere else to go ?  I certainly wouldn`t !!

I think you'll find that I already made the same point on another thread. Langfield seems unique however in that after the Dumbarton game he volunteered not to play for the first team again and Ross hinted they were looking at bringing in someone to coach the keepers for a session or two a week. I know Langfield was a general coach rather than a specialist goalkeeper coach but we have someone on our books until the summer who has said they are happy not to play again and with James Fowler and Alan McManus also assisting Jack Ross you have to wonder how much coaching Langfield is doing.

[Callum Gilhooley]

Just now, Dibbles old paperboy said:

I think you'll find that I already made the same point on another thread. Langfield seems unique however in that after the Dumbarton game he volunteered not to play for the first team again and Ross hinted they were looking at bringing in someone to coach the keepers for a session or two a week. I know Langfield was a general coach rather than a specialist goalkeeper coach but we have someone on our books until the summer who has said they are happy not to play again and with James Fowler and Alan McManus also assisting Jack Ross you have to wonder how much coaching Langfield is doing.

I`m sure you`ll understand with some of the absolute pish that has gone on here over the past wee while i haven`t trawled through the previous posts. I agree the Langfield situation is Bizarre. If i turned to my boss and said ,"look , i`d rather not go out and visit customers again, perhaps you can give the young lad a wee go !"  id be hunted !!

[Edinbuddie]

 
Jack Ross however, should at the very MINIMUM, be able to rouse his most experienced players for one final push, as we face the third tier for the first time in our history. If he cannot do that - have us go down fighting, then I don't trust him to do much of anything.

He can only do that if the players we have have enough pride, fight, energy and willingness to put in the fight.

Jack Ross isn't faultless and I'd criticise him for persevering with a couple of regulars and bringing Clarkson on as sub. But despite saying that we can't keep changing managers, that's the road that some appear to be hinting at at differing timescales.

And I'm not even going to bother addressing those who desire to say "see I was right" appears to outweigh any other consideration.

[Edinbuddie]

I was, and still am a fan of Jim Goodwin but could see why Rae might want to let him go when his contract expired. If I remember correctly Goodwin picked up an injury  just before Rae was appointed and was going to be out for a few months anyway. He also probably was on one of those contracts that don't do senior players many favours once they hit their mid-30s, play X games and the contract is automatically extended. 
One of the things that has been said for a long while was the need for a proper clear out of the team and Thommo and Goodwin were the last remaining survivors from the Cup Winning team of 4 years ago. Goodwin was also 35 (?) in the summer and getting to the age where he probably only has 1 or 2 seasons left and would want to get into coaching and management and was probably also a high earner.
If I was Alex Rae I'm not sure if I would want to give a new contract to a 35 year old midfielder, with a track record of disciplinary problems partly due to pressing the self-destruct button a few times and partly due to being a target for sneaky opponents and duff referees, and keep him as a high earner when it is less and less likely he can play a full 90 minutes at Championship level anymore.

Goodwin was an example of what we are missing. The point I was making was that Rae released a leader and didn't sign a leader to replace him.

[Callum Gilhooley]

1 minute ago, Edinbuddie said:

Goodwin was an example of what we are missing. The point I was making was that Rae released a leader and didn't sign a leader to replace him.

Anyone who saw Goodwin on the odd occasion he played with the lads would see what he brought to the team. He constantly directed and coached the youngsters rather than just shouting and bawling or highlighting their errors.

[faraway saint]

49 minutes ago, mcdowell76 said:

Apparently Faraway can guess which chocolate bar is shoved up his arse.

So he pulled down his troosers and pants and his mate stuck a Mars Bar up his arse.

Faraway said "that's a Mars Bar".

So his mate stuck a Bounty Bar up his arse.

Faraway said "that's a Bounty Bar".

So his mate decided to get his cock out and stick that up Faraway's arse.

Faraway said "ah.... that's a Treat"....

 

Ach, it was all going swimmingly then you blew it, like you blow yer best mate.

[Loyal Supporter]

1 hour ago, Drew said:

In the teams that managed to dig out big results when the chips were down, there was at least one leader on the park. Hugh Murray, Kirk Broadfoot, Jim Goodwin....

Our current squad has no leader. No-one is taking responsibility on the field. I don't think the importance of an on-field leader can be over-estimated. The experienced players in our current squad are hiding - or are turning their fire on their teammates when something goes awry.

I think Ross can only do so much after the players take to the field. I watched him last weekend against Morton, and he was trying to drive the players on, urging them not to sit so deep. This is something that should then be taken up by the skipper and/or other players. It wasn't happening, and his frustration was abundantly clear.

Again, I am not trying to absolve JR of responsibility, but I think this a key factor that is missing from the players he has at his disposal compared to those in the teams you allude to.

very good , sounds to me like you've either played or very good observer of the game . Imagine for example Jim Goodwin had still been with us and playing that day at Falkirk  when Jack BAIRD stupidly had that sending off . Goodwin would have been delt with it I'm certain . This was a big moment in our season and that was not Jack Ross fault that he has players that he cannot trust like BAIRD . Your point is excellent lack of leadership ON THE PITCH

[TediousTom]

21 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Agreed. What I heard from the commentary team was utterly cringe worthy. 

Do you have a link or something...I would be interested to hear this.

 

 

[pozbaird]

58 minutes ago, Edinbuddie said:

He can only do that if the players we have have enough pride, fight, energy and willingness to put in the fight.

 

 

Well, if Jack Ross has come into St Mirren and knows he is doing HIS level best, but some players still don't even show pride, fight, energy or willingness, he will know who they are and should drop the cnuts and make them train with the youth team. 

[stlucifer]

I was openly horrified at J.R.'s appointment but the fear was lessened when it was announced his assistant would be Fowler. If Jack is really in control then maybe it's time to reverse their roles and give the musical instrument to Jamie.

[JJP]

Our youngsters are being let down by our senior players. Jack Ross threw caution to the wind yesterday going 3 up front and 3 at the back. We were chasing the game and got hit by a sucker punch. Heads dropped and the 3rd goal went in. 3-0 was harsh on us and JR was let down by his senior pros as they were ineffectual up front and individual errors at the back.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

9 hours ago, TediousTom said:

Do you have a link or something...I would be interested to hear this.

 

 

I watched the game on TV Ton the usual swearing but very clear.