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Brexit vs (another) referendum

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Politics is never over, it'll be interesting to see how things develop over the next 18 months, with the Liberal Democrats wanting a second Euro referendum on the eventual deal, I mean how would that work - we vote to stay so we ask the EC to say it was all a bad dream. In any event they can't argue that they are against a second Indy referendum in principle. Once Article 50 is triggered it doesn't seem to me there's any going back for the UK except on our hands and knees and likely on less favourable terms. Labour are in a mess with Kezia Dugdale favouring a Federal UK which doesn't seem to be part of Labour's strategy at UK level. I reckon it'll come down to a scrap between the Tories and the SNP with the Greens holding Nicola's jacket.

For me nothing has changed Scotland can either live off the scraps of Londonland or seize the day and go it alone. It won't be an easy transition and it's up to the SNP economists to come up with arguments that will persuade the missing 5% to swing over to the Independence side.

This will surely be the last chance in a generation to become independent and I feel a bit more optimistic than last time as I don't think the three big UK parties which opposed independence in 2016 will be able to put up the same united front they did then. 

Edited by Bud the Baker

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You may well get the impression, but hard facts are the Independence movement is stalling not growing, and as for the EU stance, since when did the EU become a good thing, its not. It’s a dictatorship and suits the all powerful…. Scotland would be way down the pecking order. Romania are EU but at afford to take on the Euro , and they are not alone. How is that democracy?

 

Again this hope is based on failure.

 

Salmond used to talk about Norway, about Sweden, about how countries can grow OUTSIDE the EU, now because we Brexit, its how we flourish INSIDE, yes of course , most of this has happened because we don’t have a voice, but hey, we had one in 2014. US spoke and elected Trump, England spoke and left EU, Scotland spoke, and lets be honest, we didnt have all the answers. And we said lets not change. Only Scots could dwell in glorious failure………….  we lost

 

Scotland just fights on scraps, why, because we are not Unified- Sound familiar ?  

 

 

So here is the thing, Alec mentioned Norway – own currency, obviously Oil, fishing and working as a partner with EU, but what Norway doesn’t have is a constitutional chain around its leg- we do.

So before we look at our options life after UK, we must step up breaking out. I am not saying war, what I am saying is a huge unhinging push of disruption. Said it before, get the 56 out, that was embarrassing when they were ignored, but hey, that’s what will happen. After all they are just “Scots”. We are playing the constitutional game and its clearly not working….

Then get round the schools, get the young on our side 100%. Change the voting so over 75s cant vote, don’t let overseas vote, and at every turn slate May and her cronies…. Get a little bit ruthless- Just like the Tories

 

Tories are such liars…. I see they stuffed the Self employed, after promising they would not. Oh and Nicola, plough every resource, boundary change to get that Ruth “woman?” out…… In her constituency put the Council tax up 50%!!!

 

I see some fight, then like many , I will see a plan formulate , that’s good for our kids and good for Scotland….. Just now its just background noise

 

This ticky tacky politics is not working,. The Tories are charging ahead on Brexit, they know something, maybe a deal with China, I don’t know….. but I also think that by association we fail………. We still have the HOL, we still have Boris, we even have Farage, we have all the things we despise and are anti Scottish… And they all control us

 

Mainstream media, as soon as they can get a wee story they will slam the SNPs…. With English Nationalism on the rise, verse 4 of God save the Queen will be back…..

 

Scotland will not be Independent, we just don't have the bottle

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Bit stream of consciousness there, Dougie, but I think you're saying an independent Scotland shouldn't stay in the EU? Two things; Sweden is in the EU but doesn't use the Euro, despite committing to do so about 20 years ago; and first things first, let's concentrate on getting free of WM and then, and only then, consider whether or not we should remain in the EU.

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There's a poll out today showing 50/50 over independence.
There's still a majority in favour of independence amongst MSP's SNP membership continues to grow.
Hardly signs of the independence movement stalling.

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To talk about independence stalling is ridiculous.

Within a small margin of error it has been about 50/50 for over 2.5 years.

If Nicola gets her shit together on this and corrects the obvious huge flaws from last time the. there can be only one winner......Raith Rovers........bugger.....errrrrr..... Yes will win.

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if even a small percentage of the swing seen during the last referendum campaign was to happen in the next then the vote would probably be pretty decisive for independence.  The last campaign can be seen as lanceing a few boils such as currency, oil revenue and EU membership.  Much of the uncertainty that was exploited by NO would be removed

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The SNP said there would only be another referendum if they saw a sea change in the desire for independance. Of course we know now without a doubt that it is not really independance they seek at all but "independance in Europe" , whereby we leave a union we have been part of for over 300yrs to be in a different one which is a floundering dictatorship designed for the elite. FFS look what they did to Greece. .

 

wee Nicky thinks that the Scottish vote for Europe will translate into yes for "independance in Europe" which simply isnae the case and at any rate we still need the British to agree to another . 

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1 hour ago, saintnextlifetime said:

The SNP said there would only be another referendum if they saw a sea change in the desire for independance. Of course we know now without a doubt that it is not really independance they seek at all but "independance in Europe" , whereby we leave a union we have been part of for over 300yrs to be in a different one which is a floundering dictatorship designed for the elite. FFS look what they did to Greece. .

 

wee Nicky thinks that the Scottish vote for Europe will translate into yes for "independance in Europe" which simply isnae the case and at any rate we still need the British to agree to another . 

Agree entirely. If the SNP think Scotland is a voice in the wilderness in UK terms, what kind of clown thinks they will have more clout in the EU? In the unlikely event that the EU isn't the beaten docket that it is rapidly becoming, Scotland will be told to shut up and stay in it's small corner where it belongs.

By the way, what do the British still need to agree to?

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3 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

The SNP said there would only be another referendum if they saw a sea change in the desire for independance. Of course we know now without a doubt that it is not really independance they seek at all but "independance in Europe" , whereby we leave a union we have been part of for over 300yrs to be in a different one which is a floundering dictatorship designed for the elite. FFS look what they did to Greece. .

 

wee Nicky thinks that the Scottish vote for Europe will translate into yes for "independance in Europe" which simply isnae the case and at any rate we still need the British to agree to another . 

The SNP are a political party. The option of independence is a constitutional matter, and, as such transcends the narrow party policies.

I'm not an SNP supporter, but I want Scotland to be independent. Unlike the SNP, however, I would like Scotland to be a republic, and to be out of NATO. Fundamental differences, then, but I can wholeheartedly support their policy on independence.

People too often lose sight of the fact that an independent Scotland won't be a totalitarian SNP state in perpetuity. There will be free and open elections, and people in Scotland can choose who they want to govern. That choice will no doubt be based on many factors, including views on whether we should remain/join Europe.

Let's not conflate the campaign for independence with support of the SNP government and/or Scotland being in the EU.

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2 hours ago, RickMcD said:

Agree entirely. If the SNP think Scotland is a voice in the wilderness in UK terms, what kind of clown thinks they will have more clout in the EU? In the unlikely event that the EU isn't the beaten docket that it is rapidly becoming, Scotland will be told to shut up and stay in it's small corner where it belongs.

By the way, what do the British still need to agree to?

Sadly, it seems we are already at the point whereby people who might have a different view to others are being referred to as "clowns".

Bloody cybernats....oh,wait!

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Scotland in Europe opens up huge opportunities in financial services and manufacturing. The reason the UK gov won't tout a separate Scottish solution on market access is the fact that many English based companies will relocate to retain market access

Edited by beyond our ken

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30 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

Scotland in Europe opens up huge opportunities in financial services and manufacturing. The reason the UK gov won't tout a separate Scottish solution on etc is the fact that many English based companies will relocate to retain market access

Indeed. They are shitting themselves.

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I attend a monthly meeting with someone who is, reputedly, one of the 100 most powerful women in the world, she has weekly meetings with politicians and civil servants at the highest level.  Her take on the Tories is that they are indeed shitting themselves that there will be no inward investment in this country post Brexit. In order to appease the tory voters they are roping in the sons and daughters of thatcher-era tories to try and create a vibe that harks back to that time

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3 hours ago, Drew said:

Sadly, it seems we are already at the point whereby people who might have a different view to others are being referred to as "clowns".

Bloody cybernats....oh,wait!

Yeah but in fairness we are seeing people on BAWA hoping for a couple of brutally cold winters and that is "wuz them penshuner baisturts wot did it".

This is where social media fails completely.

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the whole brexit campaign astonishes me the majority vote to leave was from England. Do they not know that the money to build up their towns and city's is EU money and the fact that Westminster only invest in rebuilding London and couldn't give a dam about the rest of the country's. 

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7 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

The SNP said there would only be another referendum if they saw a sea change in the desire for independance. Of course we know now without a doubt that it is not really independance they seek at all but "independance in Europe" , whereby we leave a union we have been part of for over 300yrs to be in a different one which is a floundering dictatorship designed for the elite. FFS look what they did to Greece. .

 

wee Nicky thinks that the Scottish vote for Europe will translate into yes for "independance in Europe" which simply isnae the case and at any rate we still need the British to agree to another . 

The SNP have been for Scottish Independence In Europe for about 30 years. And although technically we need the UK Government to agree to another one, in reality it's merely a rubber stamping exercise.

 

I hope this time we get it right.

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