Brexit vs (another) referendum

[oaksoft]

2 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Do I win a prize?

Yes. You win the right to be alone.....whilst I think of a suitable retort.

I f**king asked for that.

[Bud the Baker]

1 hour ago, faraway saint said:

Totally irrelevant as it's Mrs Mays position that allows her to make the decision she has made.

I guess this is where it could all start to get nasty. The SNP pass a Referendum Bill at Holyrood, the Tories ignore it at Westminster and then I suppose the SNP cause as much disruption at Westminster possibly trying to rope in Corbyn to support them against the wishes of ScotLab leader Dugdale and their one Scottish MP, ex St. Mirren manager Ian Murray. It could all blow up in the SNP's faces or it could be the move that pushes support for Independence into the majority - who knows but I think the SNP were basically forced into it by the UK govt's refusl to make any compromises to reflect the difference of opinion in Scotland.

May has the constitutional right to say the UK voted as a country to leave the EU but I remember the Good Friday Agreement in NI (sic) when John Major said the UK had no selfish interest in keeping NI in the UK if the majority were against it. Are the majority for Scottish independence - I don't know but I think we have the moral right to find out at a time of our choosing but that's because I'm a Nat. It's all politics and if Theresa May wants it rough I say get the gals in the mudbath - it's the only sensible way to sort it out.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Bud the Baker

[stlucifer]

25 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

I guess this is where it could all start to get nasty. The SNP pass a Referendum Bill at Holyrood, the Tories ignore it at Westminster and then I suppose the SNP cause as much disruption at Westminster [possibly trying to rope in Corbyn to support them against the wishes of ScotLab leader Dugdale and their one Scottish MP, ex St. Mirren manager Ian Murray. It could all blow up in the SNP's faces or it could be the move that pushes support for Independence into the majority - who knows but I think the SNP were basically forced into it by the UK govt's refusl to make any compromises to reflect the difference of opinion in Scotland.

May has the constitutional right to say the UK voted as a country to leave the EU but I remember the Good Friday Agreement in NI (sic) when John Major said the UK had no selfish interest in keeping NI in the UK if the majority were against it. Are the majority for Scottish independence - I don't know but I think we have the moral right to find out at a time of our choosing but that's because I'm a Nat. It's all politics and if Theresa May wants it rough I say get the gals in the mudbath - it's the only sensible way to sort it out.

OY!! It's feckin' dinner time you know. Are you trying to encourage involuntary bulimia

[salmonbuddie]

No they didn't bud and talking like this doesn't help move anything along.
62 to 38 is not a VAST majority - it's a very clear majority but calling it VAST is ridiculous especially in the context of such huge numbers not voting at all.
You are over-selling.

You're right, according to many on here and out on social media, the difference between 55% & 45% is vast. By those standards, I should have said "enormous."

[Bud the Baker]

3 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

 

 

You're right, according to many on here and out on social media, the difference between 55% & 45% is vast. By those standards, I should have said "enormous."

 

ENORMOUSLY VAST!

[faraway saint]

3 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

 

You're obviously not talking about my penis. Infinitesimally minute would be the phrase you are looking for if you were.

 

The FFS thread for this standard of pish.

[Bud the Baker]

4 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

The FFS thread for this standard of pish.

Is there a scale for measuring the wankiness of piss?

[faraway saint]

3 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

 

If you were referring to my post then you should have said "that". Since you said "this", you must be referring to your own post so I agree with you.

 

Wrang.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I quite agree.
And I hope that TPAFKATS reads your message to him and heeds your suggestion.
Perhaps to help general understanding of why it is not apposite to blame the English for all of Scotland's ills and also to not lump all English people into the same bag, I should have suggested that if our National press is to be lambasted, then it is hardly through solely English ownership that it ruffles some people's feathers.
There's Lord Rothermere and the so-called weird Barclay Brothers all offshore tax avoiders, as is erstwhile Aussie Murdoch and his family, then there's Richard Desmond a brit who actually lives here! and he owns the Express and Star.
These are people who, in the main, do not reside in the country, but they hold inordinate sway over policies that effect us all.    I think they are pretty good enough at dividing and conquering us without us aiding and abetting.
 
 

An amazing amount of whataboutery in one post.

[salmonbuddie]

Is there a scale for measuring the wankiness of piss?

I have no idea what you're talking about...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Why else even mention the nationality?

Not all journalists are English. It is a National newspaper in terms of the UK.  It is a British newspaper.

If Andrew Marr or Andrew brillo-pad-heid Neil fae Paisley - both of the BBC and both prone to write for newspapers, too... if they had written the article in question, would you have posted it with the comment, "English press keeping it classy early doors"?  The author's nationality is irrelevant.

 

Or would you have said, "Scottish press keeping it classy early doors"?  The Nationality in your comment adds nothing - other than a racist attribution - to something you patently dislike.

I guess I'm fed up with comments from a closed mindset, that refuses to grasp that Londoners - who also voted to Remain, in numbers greater than the total of Scots who voted, both ways - are also unhappy, but they are not constantly blaming it on the English.  You are not alone in disliking Brexit.  There are a lot of us.

 

And I also remember that about a million Scots also voted for Brexit.

 

 

You are losing the plot here antrin. Seriously, if you believe I have made a racist comment you should report my post.

 

Otherwise please refrain from comments alluding to me being racist.

 

[faraway saint]

24 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

You are losing the plot here antrin. Seriously, if you believe I have made a racist comment you should report my post.

 

Otherwise please refrain from comments alluding to me being racist.

 

If you check his posts over the last 4-6 months you will see he has, indeed, lost the plot.

He's certainly become a rather bitter, angry person compared to when he was Bluto.

Something has changed him, and not for the better.

Edited March 17, 2017 by faraway saint

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, salmonbuddie said:

 

You're right, according to many on here and out on social media, the difference between 55% & 45% is vast. By those standards, I should have said "enormous."

 

Fair point. As shull says though, the masses are asses.

For the reason you have highlighted, I am going to accept defeat on the issue of "vast".

Edited March 17, 2017 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, antrin said:

I quite agree.

And I hope that TPAFKATS reads your message to him and heeds your suggestion.

Perhaps to help general understanding of why it is not apposite to blame the English for all of Scotland's ills and also to not lump all English people into the same bag, I should have suggested that if our National press is to be lambasted, then it is hardly through solely English ownership that it ruffles some people's feathers.

There's Lord Rothermere and the so-called weird Barclay Brothers all offshore tax avoiders, as is erstwhile Aussie Murdoch and his family, then there's Richard Desmond a brit who actually lives here! and he owns the Express and Star.

These are people who, in the main, do not reside in the country, but they hold inordinate sway over policies that effect us all.    I think they are pretty good enough at dividing and conquering us without us aiding and abetting.

 

 

salmonbuddie and TPAFKATS have clarified that they are not anti-English.

I think you should accept that at face value.

Neither of them are racists and you are not adding to the debate with this stuff.

As for your comments above, the fact that these people have any sway in our politics is a symptom of the WM system.

It's the same with the national debt.

You cannot logically use the failures of the WM system as "roof" that Scotland can't go it alone.

It's erroneous nonsense and you must know that.

They are reasons FOR independence not reasons against it.

Edited March 17, 2017 by oaksoft

[saintnextlifetime]

4 hours ago, Kendo said:

The Tories are going to negotiate a Brexit deal on our behalf and we don't get a chance to vote on their deal. If the Tories get us a great deal we would vote overwhelmingly to stay in the UK. Why don't the Tories trust the Scottish people to have a say in this? 

Imagine Brussels refusing the U.K. to have a referendum. All Nicola Sturgeon is doing is delivering a manifesto pledge, something the the Tories completely forgot about at the last budget. If they cannot get a budget correct God help us in the Brexit negotiations.

Lastly Nicola won the election as leader setting out her plans to lead the country. Theresa May didn't win any election as leader so for her to deny Scotland its democratic right is plain wrong. I'm not sure if I'd vote yes or no, however I would like my government to be able to ask the question.

The British Government hasn't refused a referendum , they have told wee nicky that she can't have one in the time frame she wants and now wee nicky has thrown a hissy fit about it. .Maybe her love of Europe could be satisfied with renaming the party the Brussels National Party. .

It is less than 3 yrears since the last one , how many are we going to actually have ? I reckon the next one could be the last and really there is no clear indiction that she would get a yes . She is only pushing now for her own political advantage and right now Scotland is in a worse position that is was September 2014.

wee Nicky would do well to wind her neck in , have a bit of patience and let Scotland become independent when the time is right , oh aye , and not the independence in Europe pish as that is NOT independence otherwise I would be happy to have independence in the UK. .

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by saintnextlifetime
edited by Tom for grammar and constitutional errors

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The British Government hasn't refused a referendum , they have told wee nicky that she can't have one in the time frame she wants and now wee nicky has thrown a hissy fit about it. .Maybe her love of Europe could be satisfied with renaming the party the Brussels National Party. .

It is less than 3 yrears since the last one , how many are we going to actually have ? I reckon the next one could be the last and really there is no clear indiction that she would get a yes . She is only pushing now for her own political advantage and right now Scotland is in a worse position that is was September 2014.

wee Nicky would do well to wind her neck in , have a bit of patience and let Scotland become independent when the time is right , oh aye , and not the independence in Europe pish as that is NOT independence otherwise I would be happy to have independence in the UK. .

 

Not quite.

Sturgeon said we want to have a referendum once details of Brexit are known but before we actually leave, probably autumn 2018 or thereabouts.

 

May said now is not the time. When pressed she repeated that another 4(?) times but wouldn't elaborate.

 

Many people believe now is the time to have another vote, obviously you disagree so when would the time be right for Scotland to be Independent?

 

Do you consider leaving EU to be more important than independence?

[antrin]

4 hours ago, oaksoft said:

salmonbuddie and TPAFKATS have clarified that they are not anti-English.

I think you should accept that at face value.

Neither of them are racists and you are not adding to the debate with this stuff.

As for your comments above, the fact that these people have any sway in our politics is a symptom of the WM system.

It's the same with the national debt.

You cannot logically use the failures of the WM system as "roof" that Scotland can't go it alone.

It's erroneous nonsense and you must know that.

They are reasons FOR independence not reasons against it.

I've never suggested that either of them is.  They have always been fair and sensible in their posts.

i have just pointed out that it adds no value labelling a person by their nationality.  Especially in a thread about brexit, where people throughout the UK voted according to their beliefs.

Is that an accusation of racism?  No, of course it isn't.  If I had any thought that they were racist, I would be blunt about saying so.

And I was naming those owners of our media to indicate the persistent problem, which is not the WM system, as you guys quaintly call it, but capitalism.  It's not the office workers, it's the owners...

i haven't suggested Scotland cannot go it alone, but capitalism will remain the guiding light, there.  Capitalism will not go away with indyref umpteen, nor will the distorting effects of London.

finally, oaky, thank you for defending me from the insults that Skidmark attempts, but I ignore him and his gibberish posts so I am unmoved by him.

 I'm not so grateful for you quoting him, in stuff of yours cos I read that.

He's irrelevant. Shame he couldn't hack it in Saudi.

Edited March 18, 2017 by antrin

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, antrin said:

I've never suggested that either of them is.  They have always been fair and sensible in their posts.

i have just pointed out that it adds no value labelling a person by their nationality.  Especially in a thread about brexit, where people throughout the UK voted according to their beliefs.

Is that an accusation of racism?  No, of course it isn't.  If I had any thought that they were racist, I would be blunt about saying so.

And I was naming those owners of our media to indicate the persistent problem, which is not the WM system, as you guys quaintly call it, but capitalism.  It's not the office workers, it's the owners...

i haven't suggested Scotland cannot go it alone, but capitalism will remain the guiding light, there.  Capitalism will not go away with indyref umpteen, nor will the distorting effects of London.

finally, oaky, thank you for defending me from the insults that Skidmark attempts, but I ignore him and his gibberish posts so I am unmoved by him.

 I'm not so grateful for you quoting him, in stuff of yours cos I read that.

He's irrelevant. Shame he couldn't hack it in Saudi.

Fair play bud. 

I think peace is breaking out in the forum. 

TBH I dont think I could take another referendum forum shitfest like last time. 2 years ago this would have all boiled over into abuse.

FWIW, I am undecided on independence this time round. Might well end up voting Yes again but have concerns about a couple of things.

[oaksoft]

5 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

The British Government hasn't refused a referendum , they have told wee nicky that she can't have one in the time frame she wants and now wee nicky has thrown a hissy fit about it. .Maybe her love of Europe could be satisfied with renaming the party the Brussels National Party. .

It is less than 3 yrears since the last one , how many are we going to actually have ? I reckon the next one could be the last and really there is no clear indiction that she would get a yes . She is only pushing now for her own political advantage and right now Scotland is in a worse position that is was September 2014.

wee Nicky would do well to wind her neck in , have a bit of patience and let Scotland become independent when the time is right , oh aye , and not the independence in Europe pish as that is NOT independence otherwise I would be happy to have independence in the UK. .

 

Does it bother you that when you call her "wee nicky" it sounds misogynistic?

[Kendo]

4 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Fair play bud. 

I think peace is breaking out in the forum. 

TBH I dont think I could take another referendum forum shitfest like last time. 2 years ago this would have all boiled over into abuse.

FWIW, I am undecided on independence this time round. Might well end up voting Yes again but have concerns about a couple of things.

My views exactly. 

However to deny the Scottish people a vote is a dangerous game to play.

It was made clear that Scotland being pulled out of the E.U. against its will would result in a call for another referendum. If this was to go ahead the SNP would lose in my opinion. However to withhold the right to have a vote will only strengthen support for the SNP.

[Bud the Baker]

4 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Does it bother you that when you call her "wee nicky" it sounds misogynistic?

You ask that yet you ignore my mud wrestling photo?

This forum has never been especially strong on good taste and long may it continue as long as it doesn't descend into the outright abuse we used to get from "the Prince ower the watter".

[salmonbuddie]

And I was naming those owners of our media to indicate the persistent problem, which is not the WM system, as you guys quaintly call it, but capitalism.  It's not the office workers, it's the owners...
i haven't suggested Scotland cannot go it alone, but capitalism will remain the guiding light, there.  Capitalism will not go away with indyref umpteen, nor will the distorting effects of London.

Capitalism will remain but the government we elect can directly influence the effects of that capitalism on society as a whole. The current WM system, and I don't mean capitalism, doesn't mitigate as much as we in Scotland want it to and the only way it ever will is when we get the government we have consistently voted for in my entire adult lifetime. And history shows us that the only way we can hope to get that is through independence. The current state of the unionist parties in Scotland - especially "Labour" - demonstrates that people are (at last!) beginning to realise just that.

[saintnextlifetime]

5 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Fair play bud. 

I think peace is breaking out in the forum. 

TBH I dont think I could take another referendum forum shitfest like last time. 2 years ago this would have all boiled over into abuse.

FWIW, I am undecided on independence this time round. Might well end up voting Yes again but have concerns about a couple of things.

Certainly , among the folk I know , there is no appetite for another referendum . It was supposed to be a "once in a generation thing " . I found the last one to be devisive in this country and l don't just mean on the Forum. The SNP are oppertunists and wee nicky has seen a chance to get it right up the tories which is a bit childish and as far as the country is concerned a bit irresponsible at the moment.

 

[Bud the Baker]

1 minute ago, saintnextlifetime said:

Certainly , among the folk I know , there is no appetite for another referendum . It was supposed to be a "once in a generation thing " . I found the last one to be devisive in this country and l don't just mean on the Forum. The SNP are oppertunists and wee nicky has seen a chance to get it right up the tories which is a bit childish and as far as the country is concerned a bit irresponsible at the moment.

 

Sure it's an opportunistic move by NS & the Nats and I accept Alec Salmond said it was a once in a generation opportunity but Brexit is a major, major change and wasn't on the agenda back in 2014. I don't think the 2014 vote should be free pass for 20 years and prefer NS's opportunism to the phoney outrage of Davidson, Dugdale & May. It's politics and most peoples view on whether or not there should be a second referendum depends on whether they're inners or outers (and I'm not talking belly buttons).

[Guest TPAFKATS]

All politicians are opportunists.
Sturgeon chooses now as it it's a good time, May says not now as she thinks she'll be in a stronger position after Brexit ( or possibly she won't have to deal with it then)
Labour shout boo to both of them and talk about a divisive referendum. The last one wasn't devisive, I still talk to friends and family members who didn't vote the same as me and that won't change due to politics. Brexit campaign was much more devisive and violent.