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4 minutes ago, StuD said:

Come off it bazil. Walsall aren't "our level". They have an annual turnover almost 100% larger than St Mirren's. £5.06m in the year up to May 2016 and that didn't include the sale of two of their most valuable assets that year - Rico Henry who went for a transfer price worth up to £5m and Tom Bradshaw - even then their two full sized pitches at Essington are grass. Walsall don't even own the Bank's Stadium. 

I said they had an Astroturf park at the ground as well. Owned or not, I'd be very surprised if whoever they pay rent to would just fund it out the kindness of their heart, I'm sure the rental cost would contribute to it over the years. 

I am still baffled you're trying to turn our training facilities into a negative but I can go further down the line if you want?

Crewe Alexandra seem to have impressive facilities, L2 club 

Accrington Stanley have just submitted plans for a new training ground featuring two pitches, wonder how they'll cope? 

Stevenage FC another league 2 club with state of the art training facilities?

I have looked very quickly at half a dozen teams. I'm sure you'll be able to pick holes in some of them but the fact of the matter is training facilities like Ralston are not just for the bigger teams. For a club our size, we do not have the best facilities in the country. 

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I don't think your comparison is relevant given we are all fans of St Mirren football club and want what's absolutely best for the 11 players in the black and white every week...




This is where conflict comes on this post, people refusing to accept others have different opinions.



On point one... Absolutely not.
You are totally mistaken and this blinkered approach to the top eleven first team is what is stopping you seeing the much bigger picture.

As I have already said, on taking over as Chairman, SG made decision after decision that not only didn't help the top eleven... It actually decimated it.

If you look back, at that point he was public enemy number one!

What he did do, was ensure we had a club to support.

He looked at the long term aim of stabilising and securing the furure of St Mirren and did what he had to do, regardless of what others thought.

We can learn from him here.



Regarding your second point, the solution is simple... Stop being so bloody dogmatic and allow others their viewpoint!

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1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

I said they had an Astroturf park at the ground as well. Owned or not, I'd be very surprised if whoever they pay rent to would just fund it out the kindness of their heart, I'm sure the rental cost would contribute to it over the years. 

I am still baffled you're trying to turn our training facilities into a negative but I can go further down the line if you want?

Crewe Alexandra seem to have impressive facilities, L2 club 

Accrington Stanley have just submitted plans for a new training ground featuring two pitches, wonder how they'll cope? 

Stevenage FC another league 2 club with state of the art training facilities?

I have looked very quickly at half a dozen teams. I'm sure you'll be able to pick holes in some of them but the fact of the matter is training facilities like Ralston are not just for the bigger teams. For a club our size, we do not have the best facilities in the country. 

In all of them Bazil. There's far more money in English football and there's more grants available through the FA fairly obviously. They aren't at "our level" but more than that - most of those clubs you name, including Walsall, are able to let their pitches out to raise income for their club. Some of those clubs even rent out their stadia to some of the women's teams. St Mirren can't and you aren't putting forward a plan to pay for the repair and maintenance when SMISA have complete control beyond saying that you would take the money out of the clubs budget. That's potentially upwards of £150,000 in one straight hit. 

Having good training facilities is obviously not a negative, but if you fail to budget for the obvious upkeep then it won't be long before the facilities are back in a run down state again with the first team back paying for pitch lets at Toryglen and at Renfrew as they have done in the past. 

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Guest TPAFKATS
I have no idea what on earth triggers your funny feelings!

99% of the time I will read a post entirely before responding to it.

The sheer hypocrisy and irony in your first sentence meant I couldn't read on for tears of laughter!
Now that you've had a break, you should go back and read the second sentence. It's a belter [emoji6]
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2 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:


 

 


On point one... Absolutely not.
You are totally mistaken and this blinkered approach to the top eleven first team is what is stopping you seeing the much bigger picture.

As I have already said, on taking over as Chairman, SG made decision after decision that not only didn't help the top eleven... It actually decimated it.

If you look back, at that point he was public enemy number one!

What he did do, was ensure we had a club to support.

He looked at the long term aim of stabilising and securing the furure of St Mirren and did what he had to do, regardless of what others thought.

We can learn from him here.



Regarding your second point, the solution is simple... Stop being so bloody dogmatic and allow others their viewpoint!
 

 

Don’t see the irony about shooting down my opinion this time in your post?

Again tell me how this is a poor business decision for SMISA?

You talk about Gilmour without even seeing the point that destroys your argument smack you right in the face.

As a business man do you think Gilmour would of touched St Mirren FC if he wasn’t a fan? Of course not, Gilmour did not make his money from the club, he saved us from the brink at personal expense and is only now seeing some money back from the sale. (And not close to as much as if he sold us to some of the interested parties) 

The naievity in your argument is so very staggering. ‘Invest in a business we will one day own’ bad business practice ‘save a club at personal expense and guide it back to a level platform for little to no personal game over rougly two decades.’ Good business practice. 

Oh my EK maybe time for a sleep. 

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1 hour ago, StuD said:

In all of them Bazil. There's far more money in English football and there's more grants available through the FA fairly obviously. They aren't at "our level" but more than that - most of those clubs you name, including Walsall, are able to let their pitches out to raise income for their club. Some of those clubs even rent out their stadia to some of the women's teams. St Mirren can't and you aren't putting forward a plan to pay for the repair and maintenance when SMISA have complete control beyond saying that you would take the money out of the clubs budget. That's potentially upwards of £150,000 in one straight hit. 

Having good training facilities is obviously not a negative, but if you fail to budget for the obvious upkeep then it won't be long before the facilities are back in a run down state again with the first team back paying for pitch lets at Toryglen and at Renfrew as they have done in the past. 

So what are you saying here Stuart? St Mirren are in the unique position in that we have a training ground/ facilities out with our means? Any proof of that at all? I’m sorry but it very much sounds like you’re splitting hairs.

What about the similar sized clubs up here with some big old fashioned stadiums? Surely they’ll have more to worry about in the shortterm with one off costs? I wouldn’t like to be a Dunfermline or Dundee United in modern Scottish football.

To say Stevenage and Accrington Stanley are bigger clubs than St Mirren is also pretty baffling. Even with grants and renting a park out for say £100 a pop, we still take close to treble their fan numbers and all the benefits that brings. I think it’s time to cut your losses on this one. You said some time ago ‘I’m not letting you away with that and wanted examples’ I have provided plenty. Want me to check the conference? Haha 

st Mirren will likely budget for one off costs down the line as we have done this time. (Again GLS has stated it would be paid out the budget) the only difference is right now we’ve had the chance to support through BTB. It in no way suggests we won’t be able to raise appropriate funds without detrementing the team in 10/15 years. 

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2 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Don’t see the irony about shooting down my opinion this time in your post?

Again tell me how this is a poor business decision for SMISA?

You talk about Gilmour without even seeing the point that destroys your argument smack you right in the face.

As a business man do you think Gilmour would of touched St Mirren FC if he wasn’t a fan? Of course not, Gilmour did not make his money from the club, he saved us from the brink at personal expense and is only now seeing some money back from the sale. (And not close to as much as if he sold us to some of the interested parties) 

The naievity in your argument is so very staggering. ‘Invest in a business we will one day own’ bad business practice ‘save a club at personal expense and guide it back to a level platform for little to no personal game over rougly two decades.’ Good business practice. 

Oh my EK maybe time for a sleep. 

To be honest I don't get where Gilmour comes into this at all. Yes he cut expenses when he first took over but I can't remember him ever being "enemy number one" with anyone other than me. He was hailed a hero while he let the clubs most successful talent scout go and failed to replace him, sold off a profit making business under the Caley Stand, and that hero worship even carried on through the rather embarrassing and ridiculous period at the club where Hendrie and Coughlin were given 5 year contracts, and then Hendrie was put on garden leave while the club tried to embarrass him out of work so they could promote Coughlin to the managers job. Gilmour may have saved the club financially but him and his board throttled the club with many more bad decisions that good over the period of their tenure. 

It's since become clear that Gilmour and Co failed to budget for maintenance, and for depreciation and handed over the club in a pretty run down state both on and off the pitch. His embarrasing prediction of Armaggedon when Rangers were liquidated proved well wide of the mark. And even more embarrassing was his radio appearance after he'd gone when he fawned over Les Grey at Hamilton Accies whilst proving he had very little clue about how to restructure youth football in Scotland. 

Yet still some feel grateful to Gilmour! 

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9 minutes ago, StuD said:

To be honest I don't get where Gilmour comes into this at all. Yes he cut expenses when he first took over but I can't remember him ever being "enemy number one" with anyone other than me. He was hailed a hero while he let the clubs most successful talent scout go and failed to replace him, sold off a profit making business under the Caley Stand, and that hero worship even carried on through the rather embarrassing and ridiculous period at the club where Hendrie and Coughlin were given 5 year contracts, and then Hendrie was put on garden leave while the club tried to embarrass him out of work so they could promote Coughlin to the managers job. Gilmour may have saved the club financially but him and his board throttled the club with many more bad decisions that good over the period of their tenure. 

It's since become clear that Gilmour and Co failed to budget for maintenance, and for depreciation and handed over the club in a pretty run down state both on and off the pitch. His embarrasing prediction of Armaggedon when Rangers were liquidated proved well wide of the mark. And even more embarrassing was his radio appearance after he'd gone when he fawned over Les Grey at Hamilton Accies whilst proving he had very little clue about how to restructure youth football in Scotland. 

Yet still some feel grateful to Gilmour! 

Why don’t we look at a model where the fans will be in charge of our club for generations to come and financially back said model? now I’m not saying there won’t be teething problems and a steep learning curve but if we all stick with it through the tough ti...

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7 minutes ago, StuD said:

 

Yet still some feel grateful to Gilmour! 

Yes some do, like me.  Some of us are old enough to remember Reg Brealey and Reg Brealey would have been the end of.......ah why am I even bothering, google Reg Brealey

 

He made mistakes (I do sometime as well, for example I forgot to tuck my walloper in properly the other bight and ended up catching my foreskin in my zip.  Now its bad when you are young but when you are as old as me the skin is stretched and baggy, christ it was in every tooth of the zip) but had he not stepped up when he did we would not have a club today.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

So what are you saying here Stuart? St Mirren are in the unique position in that we have a training ground/ facilities out with our means? Any proof of that at all? I’m sorry but it very much sounds like you’re splitting hairs.

What about the similar sized clubs up here with some big old fashioned stadiums? Surely they’ll have more to worry about in the shortterm with one off costs? I wouldn’t like to be a Dunfermline or Dundee United in modern Scottish football.

To say Stevenage and Accrington Stanley are bigger clubs than St Mirren is also pretty baffling. Even with grants and renting a park out for say £100 a pop, we still take close to treble their fan numbers and all the benefits that brings. I think it’s time to cut your losses on this one. You said some time ago ‘I’m not letting you away with that and wanted examples’ I have provided plenty. Want me to check the conference? Haha 

st Mirren will likely budget for one off costs down the line as we have done this time. (Again GLS has stated it would be paid out the budget) the only difference is right now we’ve had the chance to support through BTB. It in no way suggests we won’t be able to raise appropriate funds without detrementing the team in 10/15 years. 

Well Dundee United sold off their training ground to one of their club directors and Dunfermline scrapped their youth academy and now share their facilities through Fife Council with Cowdenbeath and Raith Rovers. Those are clubs at "our level".

I've checked online - Stevenage's annual accounts show a £5.18m annual turnover. 

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9 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Why don’t we look at a model where the fans will be in charge of our club for generations to come and financially back said model? now I’m not saying there won’t be teething problems and a steep learning curve but if we all stick with it through the tough ti...

Yeah well I've said already bazil I love that model. Community ownership of football clubs is absolutely the way forward. There's loads of good examples out there - even one close to home where those remotely interested could go visit at Edinburgh Spartans (a club well below "our level"). I'd love it if SMISA had got it right.....but instead they've broken promises, breached their own constitution and used ringfenced money to pay bills for a limited company. 

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Past history and interpretations thereof seem to be dominating the conversation. 

The past has gone. During my time as a fan since the mid 1970s till now there have been pretty regular boardroom and shareholder battles and disagreements. That's life I guess.

Some hero's might be seen as villains by some and vice versa. But....we are where we are. GLS has essentially lent the money needed to acquire a controlling interest in the club whilst ensuring that he has a reliable exit strategy. Well done him and his advisers. 

I would like to see serious attempts to build the number of people involved in the fan buy out and take this funding mechanism into and beyond the purchase. 

Were I one of the minority shareholders I might be wondering how I might realise the value of my shares at figures compatible with those agrees with the control grouping.

Are there any plans for these contingencies? 

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Did the club explore funding options for the Ralston pitch before approaching SMISA or are we seen now as a ‘cash cow’? I voted against the proposal as I believe the ring-fenced money should remain as such- for share purchase. 

The club’s current turnover is around 2.6m. I would be interested to know what plans the club have to increase this. The only potential capital investment plan I have heard of, which is under consideration, is filling in one of the corners. Increasing the club’s corporate and hospitality areas I would imagine would be included in this proposal.

 

 

 

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Don’t see the irony about shooting down my opinion this time in your post?
Again tell me how this is a poor business decision for SMISA?
You talk about Gilmour without even seeing the point that destroys your argument smack you right in the face.
As a business man do you think Gilmour would of touched St Mirren FC if he wasn’t a fan? Of course not, Gilmour did not make his money from the club, he saved us from the brink at personal expense and is only now seeing some money back from the sale. (And not close to as much as if he sold us to some of the interested parties) 
The naievity in your argument is so very staggering. ‘Invest in a business we will one day own’ bad business practice ‘save a club at personal expense and guide it back to a level platform for little to no personal game over rougly two decades.’ Good business practice. 
Oh my EK maybe time for a sleep. 
Good idea.
When you waken up, I can only hope you have come to your senses!

Again, I have put my viewpoint as simply as possible but again you choose to twist and deflect.

I'll let you wind others up... I'm backing out of this unless Inhave something new to offer.

Something you too might like to consider.
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4 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

Past history and interpretations thereof seem to be dominating the conversation. 

The past has gone. During my time as a fan since the mid 1970s till now there have been pretty regular boardroom and shareholder battles and disagreements. That's life I guess.

Some hero's might be seen as villains by some and vice versa. But....we are where we are. GLS has essentially lent the money needed to acquire a controlling interest in the club whilst ensuring that he has a reliable exit strategy. Well done him and his advisers. 

I would like to see serious attempts to build the number of people involved in the fan buy out and take this funding mechanism into and beyond the purchase

Were I one of the minority shareholders I might be wondering how I might realise the value of my shares at figures compatible with those agrees with the control grouping.

Are there any plans for these contingencies? 

Great idea..  Start the ball rolling and join yourself

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12 hours ago, StuD said:

Well Dundee United sold off their training ground to one of their club directors and Dunfermline scrapped their youth academy and now share their facilities through Fife Council with Cowdenbeath and Raith Rovers. Those are clubs at "our level".

I've checked online - Stevenage's annual accounts show a £5.18m annual turnover. 

Okay what about Kilmarnock who are set to open a new state of the art center after agreeing a location? Should they be scrapping the idea because they won't be able to replace pitches? By all accounts it'll be bigger and more expensive than ours. Will they encounter the same problems and are they considerably much bigger than us? Sounds like we're just on the cusp of being too small a club for our facilities... 

Dundee are also heavily involved in a new £17 million project in the city. Is it just St Mirren that haven't got the ability to meet our needs for our training complex? 

Come on Stuart, you can't make this into a negative. You also can't claim that we won't be able to maintain facilities in 10-15 years time without a negative impact on the first team budget without any proof. The same people won't be in charge of the club at that time so how can you make such a claim?

Some would say the return should be in the players developed with over £1 million in transfer income already from players developed for all or part of their youth career. Potentially double that figure if McGinn moves in the summer. 

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12 hours ago, StuD said:

Yeah well I've said already bazil I love that model. Community ownership of football clubs is absolutely the way forward. There's loads of good examples out there - even one close to home where those remotely interested could go visit at Edinburgh Spartans (a club well below "our level"). I'd love it if SMISA had got it right.....but instead they've broken promises, breached their own constitution and used ringfenced money to pay bills for a limited company. 

Would still say that's pretty short-term thinking. 

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12 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

Good idea.
When you waken up, I can only hope you have come to your senses!

Again, I have put my viewpoint as simply as possible but again you choose to twist and deflect.

I'll let you wind others up... I'm backing out of this unless Inhave something new to offer.

Something you too might like to consider.

Like how SG had good 'business sense' but SMISA don't? Cool I won't hold my breath :lol:

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1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

Okay what about Kilmarnock who are set to open a new state of the art center after agreeing a location? Should they be scrapping the idea because they won't be able to replace pitches? By all accounts it'll be bigger and more expensive than ours. Will they encounter the same problems and are they considerably much bigger than us? Sounds like we're just on the cusp of being too small a club for our facilities... 

Dundee are also heavily involved in a new £17 million project in the city. Is it just St Mirren that haven't got the ability to meet our needs for our training complex? 

Come on Stuart, you can't make this into a negative. You also can't claim that we won't be able to maintain facilities in 10-15 years time without a negative impact on the first team budget without any proof. The same people won't be in charge of the club at that time so how can you make such a claim?

Some would say the return should be in the players developed with over £1 million in transfer income already from players developed for all or part of their youth career. Potentially double that figure if McGinn moves in the summer. 

Ah now see, we've come full circle. My first post in this thread was to ask that given the average Astro grass pitch lasts 8-12 years what plans do SMISA have to raise the £150,000 needed for the next time it needs replacing. You answered that they would do it just like every other club at our level does by taking it out club funds. Yet so far you haven't found a single club at "our level" with these facilities who have had to fund replacement Astro grass without being allowed to raise money by letting out their pitch. 

Sure the money could come out of transfers I guess. But that would involve being able to guarantee a sale big enough in the next 8 years and then if it is done we need to trust Gordon Scott and SMISA to ring fence those funds for when they are needed. 

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36 minutes ago, StuD said:

Ah now see, we've come full circle. My first post in this thread was to ask that given the average Astro grass pitch lasts 8-12 years what plans do SMISA have to raise the £150,000 needed for the next time it needs replacing. You answered that they would do it just like every other club at our level does by taking it out club funds. Yet so far you haven't found a single club at "our level" with these facilities who have had to fund replacement Astro grass without being allowed to raise money by letting out their pitch. 

Sure the money could come out of transfers I guess. But that would involve being able to guarantee a sale big enough in the next 8 years and then if it is done we need to trust Gordon Scott and SMISA to ring fence those funds for when they are needed. 

I've found several at our level or slightly above that have similar or better (which you'd assume would come with more one off costs) facilities than St Mirren. I've also noted several clubs (including Scottish clubs) that are in the process of developing similar/ better training facilities and pointed out surely they would have the same problems. 

You seem to be hinging on St Mirren being in the unique position of having training facilities above our means or that we don't have rental income for our training facilities. I could point you to our Dome which probably brings in a wee bit of money similar to other clubs that rent out facilities. It may shock you but renting out a pitch for a few hours a week won't be a big ticket income for the majority of football clubs in England or Scotland. Indeed if finance was an issue in this area, could we not just start renting the pitch out for a few hours a week when it's not used in the evenings? 

A lot of your concerns and turning our training facilities into a negative assume that the fan owned club will be sitting on their hands until one day someone goes 'Oh god we need to put down a new pitch at Ralston, where did that come from?' That won't happen and it hasn't happened this time. The only difference this time is we have an opportunity to cover some of the cost through BTB. Again it does not mean we'll be in big trouble in 8-12 years time when that comes around the next time. We can easily budget for it the same way as it can easily be budgeted for now.

All thoughts aside if they should be using BTB rightly or wrongly, there isn't really a debate saying 'what about next time?' Because next time will be the same as we would do it this time if there was a no vote. I feel £50k is a lot for a club our size yes, but in the SP realistically it would be maybe one players wages or some adjustments to overall wage offerings. Might even mean an extra £2 on shirt prices or some ticket prices to cover the cost, who knows but it won't be do or die about replacing the pitch. 

I've said previously, we're going into a league where the majority of teams will have a bigger budget than us, regardless of prize money, crowds and player sales this season. Having the opportunity to save £50k does not mean we won't be able to afford this without a massive detriment to the player budget. It just gives us a wee bonus. 

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23 hours ago, StuD said:

I got outside advice on this one as I told you elsewhere. The answer that came back after consultation was that SMISA aren't claiming the £50k spend is for the benefit of the community. Instead they are claiming they are protecting an asset they hold a 30% shareholding in. It's the same argument they used when lending ring fenced money to the club for the repair of the USH and for the spending on players wages so their argument wasn't a surprise. However using the ring fenced funds for this purpose is a breach of the constitution, the rules of the society, and of the 2014 Act - and due process certainly hasn't been followed. Whether anyone has the energy to take this any further would be for them to decide. I'm not a member of SMISA and all I am concerned about is how I was misled into re-joining SMISA. Hopefully that will be resolved soon. 

I never signed up to SMiSA it all seemed a bit too cosy between them, GLS and the outgoing BoD.

You're right that the goalposts were moved. You're wrong if you believe that the majority of people care about this and doublepluswrong if you think that caring about it makes you a better person than anyone else - it just makes you a maniac. 

Kudos to you for upsetting a few folk on here but if getting your money back back is the ultimate aim then it's all a bit pointless unless you see this as some sorta therapy.

As always you've been entertaining but if you see me walking down the street - Walk On By!

 

 

 

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

I've found several at our level or slightly above that have similar or better (which you'd assume would come with more one off costs) facilities than St Mirren. I've also noted several clubs (including Scottish clubs) that are in the process of developing similar/ better training facilities and pointed out surely they would have the same problems. 

You seem to be hinging on St Mirren being in the unique position of having training facilities above our means or that we don't have rental income for our training facilities. I could point you to our Dome which probably brings in a wee bit of money similar to other clubs that rent out facilities. It may shock you but renting out a pitch for a few hours a week won't be a big ticket income for the majority of football clubs in England or Scotland. Indeed if finance was an issue in this area, could we not just start renting the pitch out for a few hours a week when it's not used in the evenings? 

A lot of your concerns and turning our training facilities into a negative assume that the fan owned club will be sitting on their hands until one day someone goes 'Oh god we need to put down a new pitch at Ralston, where did that come from?' That won't happen and it hasn't happened this time. The only difference this time is we have an opportunity to cover some of the cost through BTB. Again it does not mean we'll be in big trouble in 8-12 years time when that comes around the next time. We can easily budget for it the same way as it can easily be budgeted for now.

All thoughts aside if they should be using BTB rightly or wrongly, there isn't really a debate saying 'what about next time?' Because next time will be the same as we would do it this time if there was a no vote. I feel £50k is a lot for a club our size yes, but in the SP realistically it would be maybe one players wages or some adjustments to overall wage offerings. Might even mean an extra £2 on shirt prices or some ticket prices to cover the cost, who knows but it won't be do or die about replacing the pitch. 

I've said previously, we're going into a league where the majority of teams will have a bigger budget than us, regardless of prize money, crowds and player sales this season. Having the opportunity to save £50k does not mean we won't be able to afford this without a massive detriment to the player budget. It just gives us a wee bonus. 

Come on Scott you need to make your mind up here. Earlier in the thread you claimed that the £50k was vital to give St Mirren a chance of survival in the top flight. You highlighted the differences between SPL prize money and that given in the Championship and you told others arguing with you that if SMISA hadn't broken their constitution to give the club this money relegation would be the most likely outcome. Now you claim in this post that £50,000 is just a couple of quid on football tops, or a few pounds on ticket prices to cover the cost and that its not really that big a deal. One thing seems clear from your post - you think SMISA will come back and ask the same fans for more money and if they don't get what they want this will adversely affect the playing budget. 

St Mirren cannot rent out the astrograss pitch at Ralston. It's a condition of their rent. REA has told you that already. But even if they could have you worked out yet how many hours per week you need to rent it out for to cover the cost? Here's a clue - it's more than a "few hours a week". 

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