General Election 8th June

[Drew]

Just now, East Lothian Saint said:

There will no doubt be many different interpretations but in my mind a Nat or Nationalist in Scotland is someone who votes SNP because they want independence as opposed to the one's who voted SNP tactically either to Protest or oust Labour.

Those who voted YES in the referendum were not necessarily Nats. Voting was a duty and they had to vote something. It might just have seemed a good option at the time.

Voting SNP isn't being a Nat

Is it also possible that people have voted SNP on account of their policies, or the quality of the standing candidate, etc? See Brian's post above, for example.

You seem go be suggesting that people only vote SNP because they support independence or as some form of protest?

 

[scottd]

I was disappointed when Yes didn't win the 2014 referendum but I accepted the verdict and that independence was off the table for the near future.  The only reason it has returned to the agenda is due to Brexit and the carnage that is sure to cause.  Brexit truly has to be the biggest act of lunacy ever performed by a people at the ballot box (and I include Trump in that).

[East Lothian Saint]

1 minute ago, Drew said:

Is it also possible that people have voted SNP on account of their policies, or the quality of the standing candidate, etc? See Brian's post above, for example.

You seem go be suggesting that people only vote SNP because they support independence or as some form of protest?

 

It all depends on whether they want independence first and foremost over everything else if you just like the candidate or their methods but don't want independence your not a Nat. 

[BuddieinEK]

I was disappointed when Yes didn't win the 2014 referendum but I accepted the verdict and that independence was off the table for the near future.  The only reason it has returned to the agenda is due to Brexit and the carnage that is sure to cause.  Brexit truly has to be the biggest act of lunacy ever performed by a people at the ballot box (and I include Trump in that).

The only reason?

It has never left the table since the results were announced.

[saintnextlifetime]

24 minutes ago, scottd said:

So it is fine for Scotland to be subsumed in a union of nations but bad when it happens, to a far lesser degree, to the UK?

The Scottish Parliament may well be a 'mess' but returning to direct London rule doesn't bear thinking about.

 

 

I don't believe in Scotland being a part of any Union , but we leave them one at a time , thereby avoiding too much instability. 

 

However , it is clearer now than ever that the SNP have a love affair with what is effectively the 4th Reich .

 

 

 

[scottd]

6 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:

 

The only reason?

It has never left the table since the results were announced.

 

It was off the table after 2014, didn't mean people stopped believing in it or desiring it.  Had the Brexit vote not occurred then it would not be a realistic proposition at this time.  But appears to me that you would want people to stop believing in it full stop and that will never happen.

 

 

[scottd]

6 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

I don't believe in Scotland being a part of any Union , but we leave them one at a time , thereby avoiding too much instability. 

 

However , it is clearer now than ever that the SNP have a love affair with what is effectively the 4th Reich .

 

 

 

I'm more of a fan of EFTA than the EU outright.  4th Reich is a bit strong though.  An independent Scotland will have plenty of options.

[East Lothian Saint]

5 minutes ago, scottd said:

I'm more of a fan of EFTA than the EU outright.  4th Reich is a bit strong though.  An independent Scotland will have plenty of options.

The European Free Trade Association is a regional trade organisation and Free trade area consisting of four European states: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland. Wikipedia

 

Area: 529,600 km²

Founded: 1960

Population: 13.59 million (2012)

GDP (nominal): 2011 IMF estimate

Administrative center: Geneva

Countries: Switzerland, Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland

Currencies: Icelandic króna (ISO 4217), Norwegian krone (ISO 4217), Swiss franc (ISO 4217)

 

 

EFTA IS Tiny England alone is 3 or 4 times bigger.

Edited April 19, 2017 by East Lothian Saint

[Soctty]

39 minutes ago, scottd said:

I'm more of a fan of EFTA than the EU outright.  4th Reich is a bit strong though.  An independent Scotland will have plenty of options.

The use of 4th Reich is out of order imo. Not sure why anyone would use of a term which will link to Nazi Germany.

[oaksoft]

3 hours ago, Drew said:

I can see some logic in this argument, but you're failing to factor in a very large constituency of the electorate - young folk. They are less likely to be jaded and disaffected. They have a longer future to consider, and are generally far less conservative (small 'c') than their parents and grandparents. You just need to look at any breakdown in voting demography to see this.

One of the main reasons I voted YES was because my kids strongly believe it is the best thing for their future. Likewise, my remain vote in the EU referendum. I am, of course, capable of independent thought, but I think the best gift we can give the generations that come after us is greater scope to determine how their future plays out.

My kids' future, and the futures of their generation is more important to me than my own. Young folk face huge challenges, and I reckon they deserve access to every means by which they believe they can most successfully meet those challenges.

 

I agree with this Drew ....... but that last sentence. Pah!

Young folk face the same challenges that all generations of young folks face.

In many ways life is much easier. It is certainly much easier to find jobs now via the internet than it was trying to do so at the local library. The welfare system is considerably more generous than it was in the 1980's when we were growing up.

Young people will be fine. Just like every young generation before them. Stop worrying about them. They certainly don't need our generation fussing over them like over protective hens.

Edited April 19, 2017 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, Soctty said:

What a pompous, patronising response. I expected little else. 

 

But you're alright, so everything is fine.

Rather than rant like a whiny manbitch, tell me which part of it is wrong.

You can start by telling me where I said that everything was fine.

Edited April 19, 2017 by oaksoft

[BuddieinEK]

It was off the table after 2014, didn't mean people stopped believing in it or desiring it.  Had the Brexit vote not occurred then it would not be a realistic proposition at this time.  But appears to me that you would want people to stop believing in it full stop and that will never happen.
 
 

No problem whatsoever in people believing in it.

The minute the results were announced we had people complaining the vote was rigged and demanding a new one.

A wee decade of stability and concentrating in using our devolved powers to the full whilst campaigning positively for more devolved powers throighout the UK... That would be my preference.

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, East Lothian Saint said:

From what I can see and I haven't done much research most under 25's in Scotland voted no to independence and no to Brexit.

Staying part of the UK is still on the table but our remaining as a European partner with the costs or benefits we currently have is not going to happen.

We get feck all leadership or Guidance from the politicians and it's the same old story that has been replayed through the ages

Not much has changed since we were young  Apart from the fact we are no longer the kids.

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

WHO said that!

 

 

 

A person convicted of collecting and watching a very large amount of child porn I think.

Edited April 19, 2017 by oaksoft

[stlucifer]

5 hours ago, East Lothian Saint said:

Shabby Trolling? Not too Shabby I'd say.

My point is not made in support of the Tories. IMO The haves and the Have not's are not the Key Battle here. The Real battle is the component parts of the UK V Europe. The Haves and have nots may need to unite to ensure their is something left for anyone to have.

Scottish independence supporters and the rest of the UK may also have to call a truce until Brexit is sorted.

I'm open to persuasion but Tory politicians are crooked and self interested is not a convincing argument for throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Some one has to oversee Brexit

Who the Feck do we think can do it best.

Simple Question. Well not really.

Independence supporters should and will support independence. In my opinion, for the sake of an independent Scotland, it must be in the pipeline BEFORE the rest of the UK leave the EU completely. The EU is a very important customer base for us. Don't let the nonsense about how big a percentage of deals are done with RoUK. Most, if not all, of that will remain as they need it. That's the very reason for the Tories not want rid of us. think about it. If we leave they rule forever. No chance of a resurgent Labour party using our 50 odd seats as a crux.

The fact that you accept corrupt Tories as being not being sufficient reason for getting rid of them speaks volumes.

No one needs to oversee Scotland hard exiting the EU because it doesn't have to happen.

I certainly don't trust the ultra right wing Tories to protect our worker's rights and put those protections into British law.

I hope the SNP take the remaining 3 seats but, if not, I hope the Tories get a bloody nose from those who didn't want the EU divorce and, more importantly, those who voted for it and have realised what a feckup of an idea it was.

[Soctty]

Just now, oaksoft said:

Rather than rant like a whiny manbitch, tell me which part of it is wrong.

Wasn't a rant, dimwit. And you're not worthy of any more of my time, so I'll leave you and your enormous brain to try to work it out.

[Bud the Baker]

3 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:

 

 

No problem whatsoever in people believing in it.

The minute the results were announced we had people complaining the vote was rigged and demanding a new one.

A wee decade of stability and concentrating in using our devolved powers to the full whilst campaigning positively for more devolved powers throighout the UK... That would be my preference.

 

Going round in circles probably but when we voted to leave Europe the prospect of that "decade of stability" vanished.

[East Lothian Saint]

2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

A convicted paedophile I think.

He was never convicted but he did end up on the SO register

Strange. Still Guilty when proven innocent.

[oaksoft]

5 minutes ago, Soctty said:

Wasn't a rant, dimwit. And you're not worthy of any more of my time, so I'll leave you and your enormous brain to try to work it out.

If you can't argue like an adult without descending into childish rants then that would probably be for the best.

[oaksoft]

4 minutes ago, East Lothian Saint said:

He was never convicted but he did end up on the SO register

Strange. Still Guilty when proven innocent.

I changed my post because it wasn't technically paedophilia.

He ended up on the SO register because he admitted guilt FFS.

We don't tend to put innocent people on that register.

[Soctty]

1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

If you can't argue like an adult without descending into childish rants then that would probably be for the best.

I haven't ranted. Surely with your intellect you're clever enough to notice that? And I'm sure arguing like an adult doesn't include referring to someone as a manbitch, so we're equally inept at arguing "like an adult".

 

Probably for the best if you stopped the patronising pomposity, but it's screaming out of every condescending crevice of your being. We all have our cross to bear i suppose.

 

[smcc]

1 hour ago, saintnextlifetime said:

I don't believe in Scotland being a part of any Union , but we leave them one at a time , thereby avoiding too much instability. 

 

However , it is clearer now than ever that the SNP have a love affair with what is effectively the 4th Reich .

 

 

 

I thought Stuart Dickson had taken himself off elsewhere!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Two years ago today I posted this. I believe it still to be as relevant today.

Interestingly, It created much discussion, a lot of criticism, and a few cases of "unfriending"!

I was brought up in a time when your vote was a private thing. Something you just didn't discuss.

As the great prophet Dylan said tho... the times they are a changin'.

This is a good thing... many more people are politically aware. But many more have as much apathy as ever, and that is understandable.

I have said nothing in public to date... but I am genuinely concerned.

Of course I know that this will be sheer heresay to some of my friends... possibly end up in some unfriending.... ... though I hope not. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Cards on the table time...

I still don't know who I will vote for... but I know who I can't vote for in a General election.

SNP.

I have voted SNP at a local level a number of times. At a local level, their representatives are by far the best and most effective. Streets ahead.

At a national level, I am totally in awe at their campaign over the last decade.

Their use of social media and public interaction has been genius and actually quite refreshing.

The current campaign is also incredibly well structured. Vote SNP and our Westminster MPs will make the baddies accountable. Genius.

If SNP stood for what is best for Scotland full stop, I'd join the party myself.

But it doesn't. It will always have an ultimate aim of breaking up the UK. I'd much rather reform it, redistribute the powerbase, and increase regional autonomy.

More SNP MP's will result in carnage in Westminster... they will do all they can to create anti-Scottish feelings throughout the UK, then using the anti-Scottish rhetoric within Scotland to enhance the campaign for independence.

Just watch... that has already begun.

Genius. Dangerous... but genius.

Nicola Sturgeon can pull it off too... the perfect public speaker and infinitely more likeable than her predecessor to non SNP voters.

Despite the denials, a vote for SNP IS a vote in favour of independence. Even if you don't want that or believe that to be so. It will be used as such.

Are you Gordon Brown?
I'm sure that the Labour manifesto for this general election will include details on how they will introduce federalism into the UK.
Seems like they've been promising it for almost as long as they've been abolishing the House of Lords [emoji14]

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, Soctty said:

I haven't ranted. Surely with your intellect you're clever enough to notice that? And I'm sure arguing like an adult doesn't include referring to someone as a manbitch, so we're equally inept at arguing "like an adult".

 

Probably for the best if you stopped the patronising pomposity, but it's screaming out of every condescending crevice of your being. We all have our cross to bear i suppose.

 

Let me try again then.

This is the post I made which appears to have engaged your ire.

There will always be people in need.

Our benefits system is as generous as it ever has been historically but apparently it is still not enough.

I am certain that we could pay everyone £30k per year in benefits and foodbanks and payday lenders would still be getting used.

Which of those three things is wrong?

There will always be people in need? You can't seriously disagree with that.

Our benefits system is as generous as it has ever been? Historically that is simply indisputable. When you include tax credits for those in low paid jobs it is VERY generous. Yes, I accept the Tories are reining it in now but you need to talk to people who can remember the state of welfare in the 1980's or earlier. It wasn't that long ago that we didn't have a welfare state at all. Now it is possible to have benefits so generous that a cap of £25k per year is needed. £25k a year? On benefits? When we have people using foodbanks we were giving some people in excess of £25k per year for sitting at home? Indefensible.

That leaves the last comment. It is my belief that a large percentage of those at the bottom are living chaotic lives. Are you disagreeing with that? Many of them have virtually no education whatsoever. That means they either don't know how to budget or are lack the ability to do so. In those circumstances, simply handing them more and more benefits is not going to solve their problems.

None of this is controversial so I have absolutely no idea where you are coming from.

We need to identify those on benefits who need a nudge or a kick up the arse, whatever phrase you prefer.

We need to get them weaned off benefits and into work because it better for them, their kids and society at large for them to be tax payers.

Then we need to use that money to provide actually useful help to the people right at the bottom who cannot help themselves.

Obviously there should be money available to help those temporarily hitting hard times but it needn't take the form of handing over so much cash that it pays more than working in a full time job.

[Drew]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

I agree with this Drew ....... but that last sentence. Pah!

Young folk face the same challenges that all generations of young folks face.

In many ways life is much easier. It is certainly much easier to find jobs now via the internet than it was trying to do so at the local library. The welfare system is considerably more generous than it was in the 1980's when we were growing up.

Young people will be fine. Just like every young generation before them. Stop worrying about them. They certainly don't need our generation fussing over them like over protective hens.

I'm quite sure they'll be fine. They'll be fine if they are afforded scope to chart their own futures.

 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I thought Stuart Dickson had taken himself off elsewhere!

Where, East Lothian? [emoji9]