Jump to content

The Politics Thread


shull

Recommended Posts

On ‎07‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 7:32 PM, Ayrshire Saints said:

Pretty much, it's how they get rich in the first place. A lot of that money flows straight out the UK too intensifying the problem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41309316

Revisiting a topic from earlier in the month the BBC article highlights the vast amounts of Benefits money being syphoned of legally by private landlords and the knock-on effects to the economy.  Yet another example of the Tories looking after their own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Guest TPAFKATS
Everyone knew this was going to happen, and let be honest here----- The Scottish and Welsh Govs are powerless..................
I actually for once agree with Willie Rennie, SNPs are dead and will lose next Scottish elections 

Christ that escalated quickly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

With more than three and a half years to go until the next Scottish elections, anyone who thinks they can predict the outcome is as intelligent as, well, Willie Rennie.  Come back in two years and you MIGHT be able to offer an opinion that has something to back it up.

As an SNP member I am somewhat at pains on this one. your point though is pretty lame, in that with the Scots giving the tories the MPs to take the power grab they most defiantly will. Willie Rennie is an arse but since 2014/15 SNP have been in decline , that's not my opinion but the polls. The fact that Labour can only go one way and the ruthless Tories will bite and scratch , the humble SNP are getting squeezed , with this stupid Indy 2 shout we have nailed our own coffin shut. Strugeon made a fatal call on that one, Alex lost his seat  and we got Ruthie........

So please guys I am not that assehole Oakie so stopping ganging up on me or I will be upset and cry :booty 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

The Scottish and Welsh governments are acting in unison in an attempt to combat the "power grab" being planned by the Tories as part of their grand Brexit strategy (oxymoron alert) yet SLab (& Slibdems) have been strangely silent over the issue while SCons appear to be doing their usual job of standing up for Scotland.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41312400

Farmers all over Scotland would be absolutely delighted to see farming control return to Westminster after the complete shambles the SNP made of their EU subsidy payments. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41309316

Revisiting a topic from earlier in the month the BBC article highlights the vast amounts of Benefits money being syphoned of legally by private landlords and the knock-on effects to the economy.  Yet another example of the Tories looking after their own.

Agreed. It's time the Conservatives tightened control on benefits. Oh wait. Some silly people on here think that increases poverty and drives people to food banks. 

Ach, far better we just do as left wingers demand. Lets tax everyone loads more and pump it all into the inefficient benefit system so that these landlords can get even richer.  Oh wait. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, DougJamie said:

As an SNP member I am somewhat at pains on this one. your point though is pretty lame, in that with the Scots giving the tories the MPs to take the power grab they most defiantly will. Willie Rennie is an arse but since 2014/15 SNP have been in decline , that's not my opinion but the polls. The fact that Labour can only go one way and the ruthless Tories will bite and scratch , the humble SNP are getting squeezed , with this stupid Indy 2 shout we have nailed our own coffin shut. Strugeon made a fatal call on that one, Alex lost his seat  and we got Ruthie........

So please guys I am not that assehole Oakie so stopping ganging up on me or I will be upset and cry :booty

The SNP's problem goes deeper than just a bad call on Indy Ref 2. 

People have gotten wise to how they operate. Their pledges in the White Paper promised tax cuts, free childcare, increased benefits, more NHS spending, and more spending on public services. They promised to tell the UK Government to move Trident away from the Clyde, whilst party members claimed they might use that as a bargaining chip to get a more favourable divorce deal. They promised Scotland would be debt free whilst running a budget deficit of £15Bn per annum. And they promised less focus on fossil fuel and more on renewables, whilst producing figures that relied heavily on tax revenues from the oil industry. The SNP wanted to present an image that it was all things to everyone and they wanted to show unity despite massive divisions within the party - divisions that saw grandee's like Jim Sillars suggest that Nationalists split their two votes in Scottish Elections to give less popular parties that supported nationalism a vote. 

It's unravelling because the public are growing more aware of the deception and they do so as they realised that Scotland is losing ground on much of the world in education, health care, and in policing all directly because of SNP party policies. 

I agree with you. The SNP are finished as a party of power. They'll be lucky to hold on to third place by the time the next set of elections come around. 

What is funny to watch right now is the way the Labour Party are using some of the SNP tactics. There's a great line you'll see trotted out by Labour politicians for weeks to come where they will claim that their policies are "fully costed". What they mean is aye they know how much it costs - they've still got no idea how they'll finance it. 

Edited by Bellside Bud
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Bellside Bud said:

Farmers all over Scotland would be absolutely delighted to see farming control return to Westminster after the complete shambles the SNP made of their EU subsidy payments. 

Competence is always a big issue and there's no doubt that the SNP have messed up on this one.

3 minutes ago, Bellside Bud said:

Agreed. It's time the Conservatives tightened control on benefits. Oh wait. Some silly people on here think that increases poverty and drives people to food banks. 

Ach, far better we just do as left wingers demand. Lets tax everyone loads more and pump it all into the inefficient benefit system so that these landlords can get even richer.  Oh wait. 

Back to usual with your cart before the horse analysis if we tackle the social policies which underpin the current housing crisis then taxes could be lowered.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

My point was that there is far too much time between now and the next election to accurately predict anything.  The Tories could make a total mess of Brexit, or not, Willie Rennie could be outed as some sort of pervert, or not, the next Scottish Labour leader could be charismatic and popular, or not, May could be replaced by fat Boris, or not,  North Korea and Trump could start a nuclear war, or not, Scotland could win the World Cup, or not, Elvis could post something positive, maybe pushing it a bit far there, ...

You have taken that too far!!!:o

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Bud the Baker said:

Competence is always a big issue and there's no doubt that the SNP have messed up on this one.

Back to usual with your cart before the horse analysis if we tackle the social policies which underpin the current housing crisis then taxes could be lowered.

 

That is happening currently. Record levels of people are now in employment in the UK. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Bellside Bud said:

The SNP's problem goes deeper than just a bad call on Indy Ref 2. 

People have gotten wise to how they operate. Their pledges in the White Paper promised tax cuts, free childcare, increased benefits, more NHS spending, and more spending on public services. They promised to tell the UK Government to move Trident away from the Clyde, whilst party members claimed they might use that as a bargaining chip to get a more favourable divorce deal. They promised Scotland would be debt free whilst running a budget deficit of £15Bn per annum. And they promised less focus on fossil fuel and more on renewables, whilst producing figures that relied heavily on tax revenues from the oil industry. The SNP wanted to present an image that it was all things to everyone and they wanted to show unity despite massive divisions within the party - divisions that saw grandee's like Jim Sillars suggest that Nationalists split their two votes in Scottish Elections to give less popular parties that supported nationalism a vote. 

It's unravelling because the public are growing more aware of the deception and they do so as they realised that Scotland is losing ground on much of the world in education, health care, and in policing all directly because of SNP party policies. 

I agree with you. The SNP are finished as a party of power. They'll be lucky to hold on to third place by the time the next set of elections come around. 

What is funny to watch right now is the way the Labour Party are using some of the SNP tactics. There's a great line you'll see trotted out by Labour politicians for weeks to come where they will claim that their policies are "fully costed". What they mean is aye they know how much it costs - they've still got no idea how they'll finance it. 

Mate welcome to Politics, they all talk shite

 

Ever read any manifestos???

 

But yes agree with your second paragraph, I guess the SNPs are honest to the degree they have become gullible.... The White Paper was based on Oil revenue and that the all would be good in the world......

IMO Under Nicola they have become totally predictable. They have done great things but always manage to get drowned out. My clear issue is SNP has the bark but not the bite....

The Tories will tear people to pieces , Labour just does it to itself...... Can see Ruth being the new FM at this rate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bellside Bud said:

That is happening currently. Record levels of people are now in employment in the UK. 

Not in the Isle of Bute apparently. :huh:

*************

 Gotta love the "gig economy" and how it's allowing the employment statistics (amongst others) to be presented as a triumph when they're anything but...................

Spoiler

...............or do you?

If you kept up with the current economic thought you'd know that many of the certainties of the 20th Century are being questioned. My local chip shop uses the paper from discarded copies of Friedman's Capitalism & Freedom for wrapping.

 

Edited by Bud the Baker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest TPAFKATS
Agreed. It's time the Conservatives tightened control on benefits. Oh wait. Some silly people on here think that increases poverty and drives people to food banks.  Ach, far better we just do as left wingers demand. Lets tax everyone loads more and pump it all into the inefficient benefit system so that these landlords can get even richer.  Oh wait. 

 

Stuey, the benefits system is around 1% fraudulent. That's actually pretty efficient.

If the tax system was that good the UK wouldn't be so heavily in debt. Actually with the Tories track record over the last 7 years we probably would.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

Stuey, the benefits system is around 1% fraudulent. That's actually pretty efficient.

If the tax system was that good the UK wouldn't be so heavily in debt. Actually with the Tories track record over the last 7 years we probably would.

 

 

 

You think pissing away £1.3Bn per annum is acceptable and you want taxation increased so there's more for people to steal, I don't think it's acceptable. The benefit system is anything but efficient. 

As for your second sentence I can't really understand that. The Tories have cut the size of the UK budget deficit year on year since taking power having been left an economy in dreadful condition by the Labour Party. Whilst the Tories have been working towards surplus the SNP have never bothered with trying to live within it's means. Year after year in Scotland the SNP has proven we all need heavily subsidised by our English friends through the Barnett Formula and that it would be madness for Scots to try to break the Union. 

Edited by Bellside Bud
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest TPAFKATS
You think pissing away £1.3Bn per annum is acceptable and you want taxation increased so there's more for people to steal, I don't think it's acceptable. The benefit system is anything but efficient. 

As for your second sentence I can't really understand that. The Tories have cut the size of the UK budget deficit year on year since taking power having been left an economy in dreadful condition by the Labour Party. Whilst the Tories have been working towards surplus the SNP have never bothered with trying to live within it's means. Year after year in Scotland the SNP has proven we all need heavily subsidised by our English friends through the Barnett Formula and that it would be madness for Scots to try to break the Union. 

I didn't say acceptable.

 

I also didn't say I wanted an increase in taxation.

 

I'm not surprised you can't understand.

 

George Osborne said in 2010 the deficit would be wiped out by 2015. He changed that to 2017 and its now 2020 and likely to rise.

How this is working towards surplus only you know?

 

Scotland obviously lives 'within its men's as it has only recently been given borrowing powers. It couldnt spend more than the allowance it was given through Barnett.

 

New alias same auld made up pish.[emoji23]

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Bellside Bud said:

You think pissing away £1.3Bn per annum is acceptable and you want taxation increased so there's more for people to steal, I don't think it's acceptable. The benefit system is anything but efficient. 

As for your second sentence I can't really understand that. The Tories have cut the size of the UK budget deficit year on year since taking power having been left an economy in dreadful condition by the Labour Party. Whilst the Tories have been working towards surplus the SNP have never bothered with trying to live within it's means. Year after year in Scotland the SNP has proven we all need heavily subsidised by our English friends through the Barnett Formula and that it would be madness for Scots to try to break the Union. 

Fraud detection and prosecution is a massively costly exercise. Despite there allegedly being record low unemployment the numbers on benefits is massive, there is no correlation between the two. There are approximately 7 million working age people on benefits in the UK. Around half of those are on DLA / PIP leaving 3.5 m either out of work or earning a wage that's low enough to still qualify for benefit. Fraud detection in these scenarios is comparably simple and hence we see the cases in the local press week in week out mostly where a benefit claimant has failed to notify the authorities of a change in circumstances that has subsequently been detected by the systems in place. These are almost without exception low level frauds. Catching high value frauds (mostly Housing Benefit) is a totally different kettle of fish. They are organised, serious, complex crimes many run by criminal gangs a lot of which are non UK nationals. It needs costly complex surveillance and forensic accountancy. It can take years to build a case acceptable to the PF (if in Scotland).  Yes Benefit fraud is a disgrace and needs addressing but that requires more money and sometimes it's a case of chucking good money after bad. It's a very complex issue. Currently the budget for fraud detection and prevention comes directly from the benefits budget, extra taxation would never see revenue from that directed into anti fraud, that would be a suicidal policy for any government. Many would argue that fraud at under 2% of budget is well within reasonable bad debt provisions even by private sector standards. Greed is human nature unfortunately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bellside Bud said:

You think pissing away £1.3Bn per annum is acceptable and you want taxation increased so there's more for people to steal, I don't think it's acceptable. The benefit system is anything but efficient. 

As for your second sentence I can't really understand that. The Tories have cut the size of the UK budget deficit year on year since taking power having been left an economy in dreadful condition by the Labour Party. Whilst the Tories have been working towards surplus the SNP have never bothered with trying to live within it's means. Year after year in Scotland the SNP has proven we all need heavily subsidised by our English friends through the Barnett Formula and that it would be madness for Scots to try to break the Union. 

I've been through this before with your alter ego (more than once) the Barnett Formula only covers identifiable government spending on public services and doesn't address dress the hidden subsidies ensuing from the administration of the country being based in the London & the SE of England with all economic benefit that entails and the imbalance of infrastructure. It isn't a gift and the real madness is listening to your facile parroting of Daily Mail propaganda. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

Fraud detection and prosecution is a massively costly exercise. Despite there allegedly being record low unemployment the numbers on benefits is massive, there is no correlation between the two. There are approximately 7 million working age people on benefits in the UK. Around half of those are on DLA / PIP leaving 3.5 m either out of work or earning a wage that's low enough to still qualify for benefit. Fraud detection in these scenarios is comparably simple and hence we see the cases in the local press week in week out mostly where a benefit claimant has failed to notify the authorities of a change in circumstances that has subsequently been detected by the systems in place. These are almost without exception low level frauds. Catching high value frauds (mostly Housing Benefit) is a totally different kettle of fish. They are organised, serious, complex crimes many run by criminal gangs a lot of which are non UK nationals. It needs costly complex surveillance and forensic accountancy. It can take years to build a case acceptable to the PF (if in Scotland).  Yes Benefit fraud is a disgrace and needs addressing but that requires more money and sometimes it's a case of chucking good money after bad. It's a very complex issue. Currently the budget for fraud detection and prevention comes directly from the benefits budget, extra taxation would never see revenue from that directed into anti fraud, that would be a suicidal policy for any government. Many would argue that fraud at under 2% of budget is well within reasonable bad debt provisions even by private sector standards. Greed is human nature unfortunately.

We could all do more about it though simply by reporting fraud where we see it. It shouldn't be socially acceptable. Stealing from those who genuinely qualify and need welfare benefit should be seen by as all as abhorrent as seeing a father load up his car with four kids after downing 6 vodkas in a bar. It's not right, and yet all too often those of a certain political persuasion tell us we should ignore it because it's "low level fraud". We need to reset social attitudes and if that costs a bit more money in the short term then why shouldn't we back it? You said it would be suicide for a political party to raise tax to fight fraud in the welfare state - why should it be? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

I've been through this before with your alter ego (more than once) the Barnett Formula only covers identifiable government spending on public services and doesn't address dress the hidden subsidies ensuing from the administration of the country being based in the London & the SE of England with all economic benefit that entails and the imbalance of infrastructure. It isn't a gift and the real madness is listening to your facile parroting of Daily Mail propaganda. 

That's not even relevant. If Scotland had gained independence in 2014 we'd have no access to the economic benefit that entails from the "imbalance of infrastructure" that see's most of the UK wealth being generated in the City of London. We'd have f**ked ourselves - and for what? Alex Salmond's utopia vision of an underfunded Westminster Lite?  It's nothing to do with Daily Mail propaganda. It's simple economics and it was shown up by that ridiculous White Paper document where the SNP built their brave new cover version of all we have on some over inflated nonsense projection of oil revenues that defied all the expert advice they'd paid for, asking them for their most optimistic predictions and then taking it much, much further.  An Independent Scotland today, without all the financial benefit we get from the generous Barnett Formula would have been Darien Mark II. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not even relevant. If Scotland had gained independence in 2014 we'd have no access to the economic benefit that entails from the "imbalance of infrastructure" that see's most of the UK wealth being generated in the City of London. We'd have f**ked ourselves - and for what? Alex Salmond's utopia vision of an underfunded Westminster Lite?  It's nothing to do with Daily Mail propaganda. It's simple economics and it was shown up by that ridiculous White Paper document where the SNP built their brave new cover version of all we have on some over inflated nonsense projection of oil revenues that defied all the expert advice they'd paid for, asking them for their most optimistic predictions and then taking it much, much further.  An Independent Scotland today, without all the financial benefit we get from the generous Barnett Formula would have been Darien Mark II. 

We could all do more about it though simply by reporting fraud where we see it. It shouldn't be socially acceptable. Stealing from those who genuinely qualify and need welfare benefit should be seen by as all as abhorrent as seeing a father load up his car with four kids after downing 6 vodkas in a bar. It's not right, and yet all too often those of a certain political persuasion tell us we should ignore it because it's "low level fraud". We need to reset social attitudes and if that costs a bit more money in the short term then why shouldn't we back it? You said it would be suicide for a political party to raise tax to fight fraud in the welfare state - why should it be? 

You think pissing away £1.3Bn per annum is acceptable and you want taxation increased so there's more for people to steal, I don't think it's acceptable. The benefit system is anything but efficient. 
As for your second sentence I can't really understand that. The Tories have cut the size of the UK budget deficit year on year since taking power having been left an economy in dreadful condition by the Labour Party. Whilst the Tories have been working towards surplus the SNP have never bothered with trying to live within it's means. Year after year in Scotland the SNP has proven we all need heavily subsidised by our English friends through the Barnett Formula and that it would be madness for Scots to try to break the Union. 


La plus ca change and all that...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Bellside Bud said:

That's not even relevant. If Scotland had gained independence in 2014 we'd have no access to the economic benefit that entails from the "imbalance of infrastructure" that see's most of the UK wealth being generated in the City of London. We'd have f**ked ourselves - and for what? Alex Salmond's utopia vision of an underfunded Westminster Lite?  It's nothing to do with Daily Mail propaganda. It's simple economics and it was shown up by that ridiculous White Paper document where the SNP built their brave new cover version of all we have on some over inflated nonsense projection of oil revenues that defied all the expert advice they'd paid for, asking them for their most optimistic predictions and then taking it much, much further.  An Independent Scotland today, without all the financial benefit we get from the generous Barnett Formula would have been Darien Mark II. 

Cart before the horse again, it's the decision of the UK to focus on the City of London that has been the root cause of economic problems in the rest of the UK. Even the regions of England have woken up to this and are now beginning to worry about the faltering Northern Powerhouse strategy - another that appears to be falling by the wayside as TM concentrates on squeezing every remaining day she can in her current position.

With Boris back seat driving and Merkel reminding her that "Brexit means Brexit" it doesn't look to me that she's got much time for the day job. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Cart before the horse again, it's the decision of the UK to focus on the City of London that has been the root cause of economic problems in the rest of the UK. Even the regions of England have woken up to this and are now beginning to worry about the faltering Northern Powerhouse strategy - another that appears to be falling by the wayside as TM concentrates on squeezing every remaining day she can in her current position.

With Boris back seat driving and Merkel reminding her that "Brexit means Brexit" it doesn't look to me that she's got much time for the day job. 

Theresa May will be Prime Minister until Brexit is sorted out. She'll see out her full term in office because quite frankly no one else wants it. That's been absolutely clear since the General Election. Corbyn needs five years of gloating about his defeat kidding on he won. The Lib Dems are still drowning. And the SNP are at their lowest ebb since John Swinney was leader in 2004. The fact that still to this day May's biggest threat comes from Boris Johnson speaks volumes about how ineffective the alternatives are. 

As for London you've got it wrong. Look at the map after the general election. The blue tide went far more North than it has done in many a year. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Bellside Bud said:

We could all do more about it though simply by reporting fraud where we see it. It shouldn't be socially acceptable. Stealing from those who genuinely qualify and need welfare benefit should be seen by as all as abhorrent as seeing a father load up his car with four kids after downing 6 vodkas in a bar. It's not right, and yet all too often those of a certain political persuasion tell us we should ignore it because it's "low level fraud". We need to reset social attitudes and if that costs a bit more money in the short term then why shouldn't we back it? You said it would be suicide for a political party to raise tax to fight fraud in the welfare state - why should it be?

All LA's and the DWP have confidentail fraud hotlines and they are well used (sometimes usefully sometimes malisciously).  I never ever condone fraud low level or otherwise what I said is the current government and all those before them (not those of certain political persuasions) basically do but not really through choice. There has been millions spent on detecting fraud, the systems in place are good at detecting low level fraud (you appear to have misread / misunderstood my previous post) .  It's complex organised systematic HB fraud that is very difficult to combat and that is where the  money leaches out.

 

You would be in favour of tax rises specifically to counter fraud ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bellside Bud said:

Theresa May will be Prime Minister until Brexit is sorted out. She'll see out her full term in office because quite frankly no one else wants it. That's been absolutely clear since the General Election. Corbyn needs five years of gloating about his defeat kidding on he won. The Lib Dems are still drowning. And the SNP are at their lowest ebb since John Swinney was leader in 2004. The fact that still to this day May's biggest threat comes from Boris Johnson speaks volumes about how ineffective the alternatives are. 

As for London you've got it wrong. Look at the map after the general election. The blue tide went far more North than it has done in many a year. 

May will see out the Brexit negotiations, how long she survives after that is anyone's guess, but she will never again be a strong Prime Minister. BoJo will not be the next leader of the Tories for the same reason that he didn't win when Cameron quit - he's upset too many people in the party.  If TM goes before the next GE it'll likely be David Davies although I'd love to see Regency dude Jacob Rees-Mogg get the job (I've bought a job lot of Beauty Spots just in case). If TM makes it to the next GE it'll be one of the self-declared Golden Intake of 2010 :rolleyes:.

 

The existence of a Northern Powerhouse strategy is in itself evidence that London & the SE swallows up to much of the nation's resources and opinion that it is faltering appears to be gathering strength. People weigh up many factors before they cast their vote and I'd be surprised if folk up North views on this issue were closer to yours than mine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...