The Original 59er

In fact after last night, maybe I should send a music message to the BoD's: "Can I have my money back, money back, money back? Can I have my money back, please sir? You don't hear what we're sayin', don't care what we're doin' Can I have my money back, money back, money back? Can I have my money back, please sir?"

There is only one word to describe last night: "Capitulation" It's a hell of a long journey up that A9 with its average speed cameras, and worse coming all the way back down the road after that display. I do not make a habit of calling for blood............................. but a transfusion is required URGENTLY

Tut tut Tom, tediously trying to tempt terrible torment, truly tiresome!

Unbelievable................ Captain fantastic at CH doesn't even get a mention with another squad. Shurely some mishtake Missh Moneypenny!

Would that be the February 14th 2015 ICT game?

I suggest that now this topic has reached 68 pages we should start a new thread; "Bring Back Danny Lennon"!

Fact: TC has a depth of football knowledge built up over a significant number of years and he has a lot of football contacts. He has managed three football teams and coached several others over a lengthy period. Having the attributes described above doesn't necessarily make him a good football manager, motivator or man-manager who can get the best out of a team of individuals or a squad. Sometimes the top job in any profession whilst sought by many, isn't the best for that person when it comes to the crunch. Do I have faith that TC will pull us out of this mire..................................................... Highly questionable! I want to be wrong and I have no desire to see a high turnover of Saint's managers, but I am beginning to get a sinking feeling which I just can't shake off, to the extent that I now don't feel like going to a game at home any more.

Not quite following you, since the late 80's, in fact since 1990, in the top division (now the Premier League) we have won 54 home games over 12 seasons - not great I grant you, but slightly more than you suggest. An average of roughly 5 a season if you ignore this season as we are only 7 home games into the season. Interestingly over the same period, we have won 114 home games in the old 2nd division (now championship) over 13 seasons at an average of roughly 9 home wins each year. So in some respects we probably encourage more hope and excitement at home when we are in the 2nd tier of the leagues! - Again not the very best way of delivering statistics as the results may not necessarily make you smile! This year however is grim reading with 0% wins, 14% draws and 86% losses. We are pretty crap at home, there is no doubt about that and looking at these figures, I have to say that I fear the worst and maybe have to face up to a period of 2nd tier football again for a few seasons!

For the life of me I don't see the business logic in buying into a Scottish football club other than maybe Celtic, or if ever such a thing existed, a well run Rangers. There just isn't a logical business or financial argument other than massaging an ego. The ground isn't an asset to strip, and whilst the fan base is low and has the possibility to grow, it is fickle and prone to major fluctuations, as is the team! So it is perfectly understandable that the present owners can't find someone - there is really a very limited market out there and if anyone is tempted to buy into the likes of St Mirren they are doing it for egotistical reasons OR they are truly fans such as SG - whoever they are (including a community owned club) they are not going to throw money at the team, and neither are they going to make much money out of the club once they have 'invested'. Having said all that, I admire SG and his determination and luck in getting Saints to where they are today - if you just take a second to realise that the mess that Tesco are in today, where they are shedding sites they have bought or committed to, left, right and centre, it make you realise just how lucky we were in getting their money and commitment at the time. Believe me, there is no other retailer who would have paid that money or taken that chance on getting a planning consent on Love St. So hats off to SG for pulling that one off. I would hope SG can achieve a dignified and justifiable exit, he deserves it, but I'm sure it will continue to be a struggle.

I agree that the youth route is our best (and maybe our only) hope and acquiring the odd seasoned pro here and there to help / bolster the young side as they develop. That doesn't get away from the principle of the post however, it seems to me that the ground suits many if not all of the opposition sides that come here. The park isn't intimidating or maybe the support is so lacklustre that they really don't see our crowd as a twelfth man. I don't really subscribe to the 'crap manager' mantra, I personally don't really rate ICT's current manager that much, but ICT do make it difficult for visiting teams.................. maybe it's the long haul up the A9 that knackers the teams before they get there! Obviously home advantage is not something that sits easily with Saints. The stadium is neat, modern and the pitch a pleasure to play on. Maybe the visitors like it so much that they perform really well because the conditions to play are perfect for them. I just can't quite see what a home game gives us.................. it certainly isn't a sure fire home win. In fact if I was a betting man, and did place a bet on 6 home wins, Saints would never be in the mix! This next statement so much goes against the grain, but it's worth asking............... ..... would it really hurt us as a team in terms of football enjoyment on a Saturday and financially, to drop down a league, retrench and let the current crop of youngsters who seem to be developing in the Under20's come through over the next couple of seasons?

I take the view that we should approach this tie as nothing to lose and plenty to gain. As said above, ICT are currently better than us and on current form should beat us, but stranger things have happened. I would take this draw every day of the week, - we stand a reasonable chance and if the team turns up and plays as we all hope they should then we go on into the next round with the reality that several SPL teams are gone. Why all the doom and gloom, I'd rather we had a home tie against a non-OF side or even worse, an away with Dundee Utd, Dundee or Aberdeen. Cheer up, the sun will shine tomorrow................... or the next day!

A quick scan of the period from August 2006 through to January 2009 actually suggests a fractionally worse record at Love St than at the new SMP of a 36% return on home points, so your point is well made, but you could say we were a new team into the SPL and so struggled initially and just scraped above Dunfermline in our 1st year in the SPL. (We only recorded 3 wins at home that year). I just get the feeling that we perhaps haven't made the most of our new home, without trawling through every team's home record, it is more a feeling than a hard fact, but it seems that most if not all teams come to Paisley automatically thinking they can take away 3 points.

This year has started like the last few and it got me thinking as to just how bad have we been since we moved into New St Mirren Park on the 15th of January 2009? Stats in this respect don't really lie. They only go to state the bl**dy obvious that we are a pretty soft touch when it comes to playing at home. Since our first game in January 2009 through to the end of last season we have played 103 league games at home. The record: Won: 28 Drawn: 38 Lost: 37 So out of a total of 309 points available we have 122 points, or 39% of what was theoretically possible! Over the various cups we have faired slightly better but that is tempered by sides from different divisions. Played 17, Won: 9 Drawn: 5 Lost: 3, so a slightly better average. So I suppose my question is, why have we not settled into the new home and made it more of a fortress?

As with all disputes, or disagreements, there is ultimately some kind of a solution and it very much depends on both sides giving ground and conceding some element of principled ideals. This issue can be sorted and what I find incredible is that the issue even on this forum has now stretched to 10 pages (yes a certain poster from Lanarkshire has become involved in the process! ) Anyway, as now several have posted, find a way of ensuring that the club aren't being ripped off and release the boy to go and do his studies and play footie at some appropriate level if that's what he wants to do. By the looks of things we won't be getting him back at SM Park at any time in the near future!

I said it before and I'll repeat it: It's pretty obvious he now doesn't want to play for the Buddies. He wants to pursue a university education. He may want to continue playing football at some level. The best way out of this is for St Mirren to say to Kieran "ok we understand your position and hopefully you see ours. You wish to pursue a different career through a university degree and we fully support that. As a result we will release you from the contract as long as you don't put pen to paper with any other professional or semi-professional football club for the next (say 5 years or whatever the legal period is for development players). If you do then we will expect repayment of all development costs and if appropriate any fee that we at St Mirren would be entitled to, if you joined another club, as a result of work we have put into you". There sorted!

Strained his back carrying his winnings out of Caesar's Palace apparently

Ah, I wondered why we hadn't renewed his contract - I naively thought he was a pretty good goalie prospect and that we should have held onto him if we could............... I obviously missed all the other juicy bits and pieces about him. If he's crapped all over us, then no doubt he'll continue to do that with anyone he plays for, unless he screws the nut!

For the love of your God, please desist from dragging Kieran Doran into more inane "Yes" & "No" arguments.................. Please! There was and continues to be, an incredible 478 page thread on another part of this website related to punch and counter-punch on the subject, we don't need overspill into a perfectly valid subject in the 'general discussion' section.............. PLEASE, I'm on my knees here pleading!!!!!

As someone has already posted, if he's off to uni to pursue a long-term career path, other than football, then the club should assess what benefits there are to holding onto him (other than getting some compensation for the development of the lad).. It may be better to loan him out, or come to an agreement with him if he plays for any other team over the next 4 years they compensate Saints and that ends the furore. If after 4 years he wants to go back to football, having concentrated on his studies then that's his decision, he won't have much chance of making it big by the age of 23 or 24. Also, if what has been posted is true that he is heading off to do medicine, he will have no time to seriously train, or compete at any serious level for the next 5 years. The course is that demanding.

Sorry it's a word document, however here it is in entirety: I think I've managed to attach a link at the bottom of the script. ST MIRREN PARK Stadium Regulations1. All matches are played in accordance with the Rules and Regulations of the Scottish Football Association, the Scottish Premier League, The Scottish Football League, and where applicable, the Regulations of FIFA/UEFA Competitions. 2. Play is not guaranteed to take place on any particular day or at any particular time. The Club may change its advertised fixtures without prior notice and without liability. 3. Tickets are issued by the Club on the condition that no ticket holder shall sell or transfer the ticket for a larger price than appears on the face of the ticket. If there is a breach of this condition, the Club may cancel the ticket and retain any money initially paid for it. 4. On entering the Stadium, the patron must retain the ticket until the match has been played to a conclusion. 5. If the game to which this ticket gives access is postponed or abandoned for any reason the ticket will be valid on the rearranged date. A person who does not wish to attend the rearranged playing of the match shall be entitled either to a refund of the face value of the ticket in the case of postponement or an amount to be determined by the Club acting reasonably in the case of abandonment after the match has kicked off. In such events the refund will only be paid if the Club received the application for refund within 14 days of the announcement of the rearranged match. All applications for and correspondence in relation to refunds should be addressed to St Mirren Ticket Office, St Mirren Park, Greenhill Road, Paisley PA3 1RU and be accompanied by the relevant ticket stub. Please ensure that the name and address of the ticket holder are written clearly, preferably in block capitals, in order that it can be processed. You should allow 28 days for the refund to be made. The Club will not be liable to reimburse any other amounts to the ticket holder incurred as a result of postponement or abandonment of the match due to circumstances beyond St Mirren's control. 6. All children entering the Stadium must pay for admission or hold a valid ticket. 7. Unauthorised persons are not permitted to enter upon the field of play. 8. With the exception of authorised media representatives holding accreditation issued by the Club, the taking of photographs or filming by any means inside the Stadium is prohibited. In addition, no transmission or reproduction, in whole Or part, in any form, or by any means, electronic, mechanical, recording or otherwise of any match is permitted save with a special authorisation in writing by the Club and, where appropriate, the prior consent of The Scottish Football Association, the Scottish Premier League, the Scottish Football League or appropriate body. 9. Only persons specifically authorised in writing by the Club are permitted to offer newspapers, periodicals, match programmes, food, beverages or any other articles or substances for sale in the Stadium. 10. Smoking is not permitted anywhere within St Mirren Park. 11. Any individual who participates in Unacceptable Conduct at home or away matches will be ejected and or arrested and St Mirren FC reserves the right to take further sanctions including exclusion from the stadium for a period of time or permanently. Strathclyde Police will also pursue Football Banning Orders. Unacceptable Conduct includes the use of foul or abusive language; racist, discriminatory or sectarian remarks, songs or chants. The promotion or endorsement of any political organisation are not permitted within the Stadium or on the Club's property. 12. Please note it is an offence punishable by law for any person to enter or attempt to enter the Stadium: 1. Whilst in possession of a prohibited container which is capable of containing liquid and which if thrown would be capable of causing injury to another person. 2. Whilst in possession of alcohol. 3. Whilst drunk or under the influence of drugs. 4. Whilst in possession of any article or substance whose main purpose is the emission of a flare for purposes of illuminating or signalling or the emission of smoke or a visible gas. 5. Whilst in possession of any article which is a firework. All persons entering the Stadium may be searched by the Police. 13. Articles which could, or might be used as a weapon, or to cause offence, or which are regarded by the Club or the Police as dangerous or unsafe are not permitted within the Stadium. 14. All persons entering the Stadium may be required to submit to search by stewards to prevent prohibited articles which might be used to cause injury or damage other persons or property being brought into the Stadium. 15. The throwing of any objects whether on to the pitch or track or otherwise, is not permitted. 16. At all times, the right of admission is reserved by the Club. No transfers from one seat to another within the Stadium will normally be allowed. 17. All spectators MUST REMAIN SEATED in their designated seats at all times 18. All persons entering this Stadium are admitted subject to these Stadium Regulations and to the applicable Rules and Regulations of The Scottish Football Association, the Scottish Premier League, and the Scottish Football League. ENTRY TO THE STADIUM SHALL BE DEEMED TO CONSTITUTE UNQUALIFIED ACCEPTANCE OF ALL THESE RULES AND REGULATIONS. FAILURE TO ADHERE TO THEM MAY RESULT IN SEIZURE OF SEASON TICKETS OR A BAN FROM ST MIRREN PARK. 18. The Club reserves the right for its servants, stewards, and agents, and for members of the police forces to remove from the Stadium any person who does NOT COMPLY WITH STADIUM REGULATIONS AND WITH THE RULES AND REGULATIONS of The Scottish Football Association, the Scottish Premier League, The Scottish Football League and/or, where applicable, the Regulations of the FIFA/UEFA Competitions or whose presence in the Stadium is or could reasonable be construed as constituting a source of danger, nuisance or annoyance to other spectators. INFORMATION Any breach of Ground Regulations may result in ejection or action by Strathclyde Police. You should be aware that in terms of a protocol with Strathclyde Police the details of any arrest or detention occurring in connection with a home or away football match may be shared with the club. Should any spectator witness any breach of stadium regulations please notify the nearest steward. http://www.saintmirren.net/club_policies/stadium_regulations.doc

If you care to go online you will find the up to date St Mirren Park Stadium Regulations The following is an extract from the said document: 11. Any individual who participates in Unacceptable Conduct at home or away matches will be ejected and or arrested and St Mirren FC reserves the right to take further sanctions including exclusion from the stadium for a period of time or permanently. Strathclyde Police will also pursue Football Banning Orders. Unacceptable Conduct includes the use of foul or abusive language; racist, discriminatory or sectarian remarks, songs or chants. The promotion or endorsement of any political organisation are not permitted within the Stadium or on the Club's property. 17. All spectators MUST REMAIN SEATED in their designated seats at all times 18. All persons entering this Stadium are admitted subject to these Stadium Regulations and to the applicable Rules and Regulations of The Scottish Football Association, the Scottish Premier League, and the Scottish Football League. ENTRY TO THE STADIUM SHALL BE DEEMED TO CONSTITUTE UNQUALIFIED ACCEPTANCE OF ALL THESE RULES AND REGULATIONS. FAILURE TO ADHERE TO THEM MAY RESULT IN SEIZURE OF SEASON TICKETS OR A BAN FROM ST MIRREN PARK. If you read the words as written, you can take SD's argument to the logical conclusion that technically no political party should be able to advertise in the ground. (The promotion or endorsement of any political organisation are not permitted within the Stadium or on the Club's property ). So in some respects as much as I try to avoid supporting SD in any of his political and rancid rants, he has a mute and valid point. Perhaps if made by another poster it may not have engendered 5 pages of vitriol. I enclose the other two points as they too have some relevance to matters concerning the public use of the stadium. Obviously the matter has previously been well debated on the OF fans standing throughout the game yet not being challenged. The rules of the SFA, SPL and SFL will most probably mirror many of the regulations encapsulated in the St Mirren regs, and in particular to racial, religious and political chants / comments - sorry I'm too bored to thoroughly check but have to make these assumptions! So SD has a form of point which seems to be getting ignored by the club, but at the same time the club ignores paragraph 17, which leads me to ask why have regulations in place if you aren't prepared to apply them?

I know I've said it elsewhere; "to keep the faith", and of course I do, but there are times when that faith is stretched pretty far! This season, taking into account league and league cup games we have played a total of 750 minutes of football and scored 5 goals. An average of 150 minutes per goal! Put that stat into the thinking and it doesn't take much to work out that you are pretty well unlikely to see a Saint's goal if you attend a game. In fact it takes roughly 1 full game then 2/3rds of the next game to see a goal. I genuinely hoped that maybe we had brought in two or three extra players that could produce maybe 10 to 15 goals a season however, that hope is beginning to fade and the most worrying aspect is that we are the lowest scoring team in Scotland in the 4 national leagues. It has been said that TC has been looking to bring in a striker to replace ST who may be out for weeks, if not months. The problem with that approach is that any striker worth his salt is signed up and anyone brought in who is a free agent is going to take some time to assimilate into the team. Slightly worried at the moment!!!!

I thought Pressed Steel was on one side of the road and did just that, pressed the steel into body shapes, then it was transferred across the road by the high gantry that straddled the road over to Rootes (then Chrysler) for them to fit the Imps and other cars like the Avenger etc!?

Dire thinking. I wonder when it will strike home with the clubs that there is nothing better than a bit of a crowd (supporting either team) to bring the best out in the players? I'm maybe not quite in Shull's camp that prices should be a £5 a go, but the equivalent of £30 x 2 (once you take in travel etc) to go and see a game of Scottish football is probably stretching it a tad.

457 pages of near fisticuffs, name calling and innuendo, time for the thread to be quietly tucked away for another 40 years perhaps?