Crispian Crunchie

Yeah, it's not like we've ever done this before. Only the 16 times.

Guess what ? It is the name of a character in a book. A Pish book, mind, but still a book.

Anybody heard of This Band ? For some reason, I'm fascinated by their name. Are they any good?

I've been fannying about on the internet for years now. My recollection is that Saints Online, set up and run by George Ewing (aka The Chief Looney) was the first St Mirren web presence/fansite. You may recall the old Guestbook. Am I right ? Or were there others? I do also recall something called "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now", but that was post Saints Online. Then there was arguably the best one, Div's "Sizzling Saints" which somehow transmogrified into the pish official site we have today. And finally Cyril, Black & White Army - the one we know and love today.

HERE'S what you need, matey. The free version is just as good as the subscription version, too. I switched to it after fecking Norton let a Trojan through that buggered up nearly everything (including Norton itself). It's also worth running Spybot - available free from Download.com

It's the way I tell 'em.

How does it go again? Oh yeah - WHOOOOOOOSSSSHH !

With respect, HH, I fail to see how a description of how you spent your weekend is relevant here.

You're quite right. Nineteen Eighty Four wouldn't be in my top five books. But you're not right to say I do not think it's okay, and have never said so, and I'd be grateful if you'd acknowledge that. I'm as appalled as you are at the examples cited. But I do not think they are evidence of "such an appalling syem being a reality". The bugging controversy - well, it's still very much a breaking story, and we'll see what we will see - but in a true totalitarian state we would never even have heard about such a story.

I think you're in danger of losing sight of the point at issue, Ching. To remind you, it was whether or not the UK can usefully or validly be compared to a totalitarian police state akin to that portrayed by Eric Blair in his infamous novel Nineteen Eighty Four. The other countries I cite are highly relevant to this point, as they really are examples of totalitarian police states. Britain, despite the examples you've talked about, simply isn't. I find it quite remarkable that you seem to be insisting that it is.

Who's ignoring it? Not you, and not me - I'm certainly not denying those examples have taken place (in fact I pointed out one you'd forgotten to cite), but that's the point - they are very specific instances that are regrettable, but extremely uncommon. They certainly do not in any way lend validity or credibility to a comparison between the UK today and a totalitarian police state. No, it's not all tickety boo, but it's a f**king sight better than Burma , Saudi Arabia or North Korea, which is my - still salient - point. .

All shocking and, thankfully, rare examples of the abuse of police powers, but by no means any indication that we are remotely close to living in a totalitarian police state. To claim that we are does a gross disservice to those living in places such as Burma, where there really is a totalitarian police state. The first example (and also that of Jean-Charles De Menezes, one presumes) is peculiar and exceptional over-reaction to (for want of a better phrase) "The War on Terror". The second a shocking example of what happens when you get f**kwits employed as police officers, and the third, well you unfortunately cannot legislate for Daily Mail f**kwittery in a country which treasures its free press.

That's the trouble with ham-fisted sarcasm. It completely loses the point. If there ever was one.

Howard supports Crispian, shock, horror. Thanks HH, you've explained rather well why the lazy, half-arsed, nonsensical notion that Nineteen Eighty Four has come true in today's UK sort of gets my goat.

I don't work at the Home Office. Do you mean to say that you really can't think of a single thing you were free to do 20 years ago that you are restricted from doing today? Rather proves my point, I feel. Have you met David Icke? Well, as Winston Churchill famously said, "Democracy is the worst possible system of government. Apart from all the others." Which alternative system of government would you prefer? One that really would live up to your fanciful notion that we're all living up to Orwell's descriptions of totalitarian police state in Nineteen Eighty Four? That at least is is certainly true, if blatantly obvious. I obviously have a different way of looking at things than you, that's for sure, but really, I think you'll find that it's your rather skewed and strangely ill-informed view that is the minority one. I never said that it was.

So that's a "no" to the question I asked you, then? Thought so.

I thought that was what you said. Still don't get it.

What ?

Right. So Orwell had lottery tickets in Nineteen Eighty-Four, and we've got them now. The UK may not have had a lottery in 1948, but the concept was hardly unheard of - in Spain, for example, where Orwell had spent time as part of the International Brigade. One superficial coincidence. Any more? CCTV, you say? Well, no. Although there are CCTV cameras throughout the UK for purposes of safety, security, and so on, there is no routine surveillance of every citizen - certainly not in private homes, in the way that Orwell described in his novel. Can you actually cite any more of these "many points that have come to pass"? I don't think you can, because they haven't. The UK is not a Totalitarian Police State. Yes. This simply isn't true. If there is convergence in certain policy areas between the two main UK parties then it because Labour has set the agenda towards a national concensus. Take the National Minimum Wage, for example - before 1997, the Tories were fundamentally opposed to it and predicted dire economic consequences. Now they wouldn't dare to talk of abolishing it - which is actually a good thing. But I would always argue vociferously against the lazy notion that there is no difference between the Labour and Tory parties. There is. And because there is, and because there are two main political parties (and we've not even mentioned the LibDems, Nationalists,and all shades in between - and where does Scots devolved government fit into your "analysis", come to that?), that is why your comparison of the UK with Nineteen Eighty Four's Airstrip One is in my view utterly fanciful. It's a what ? I'm afraid I don't understand the point you are trying to make (or why it's relevant to this discussion). Why the quotation marks? Do you seriously think that the UK (or Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Italy, Spain, etc etc etc) are not democracies? You do understand the concept of democracy, don't you? No, more advanced in having more CCTV cameras installed. I do. In fact, in economic and social terms, I have considerably more. I can travel much more and more widely, I can afford more luxuries. Technology has opened up all kinds of possibilities. I cannot think of one single thing I could do 20 years ago that I'm prevented from doing today(with the possible exception of smoking a fag in a public enclosed space, but I actually don't regard that as a restriction on my personal liberty - as a non-smoker, my liberty to be unaffected by others' smoke has actually been enhanced). Can you ?

The model for Nineteen Eighty Four was the Stalinist Soviet Union, not a modern mixed economy democracy such as the UK today. The statistic about the number of CCTV cameras is meaningless - all western democracies have them, the UK is slightly more advanced. Of course it's irrelevant. How much more of Nineteen Eighty four "has become a reality" apart from the fact that there are CCTV cameras around ? Zilch.

Yeah - like "virtually none of it".

You missed out "Nails in the Banister" by that master of suspense, R. Stornaway.

Oh really? how very interesting !

I really don't think it would be possible to get a light bulb up your arse without it shattering (the bulb). Course, it depends on the arse.

Is there something you'd like to share with us, Sharon?