Gary Blues
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Posts posted by Gary Blues
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respect your opinion, but heard you the first time
yeh, I heard you the first time as well
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Ok Gary lets look at it again....try it this way.
Now think about this again. It doesn't say they have accessed special funding for the purchase of 52% of the shares of St Mirren. It says that as a CIC it can access special funding and that "in this case" they would do so to "gain control of the assets" of St Mirren FC.
This does not mean benefiting that making the club brilliant will benefit the community. Far from it. What it says is that the CIC, the Corporate Members, The Community Members and the Individual members will work together for each others benefit.
Now you tell me did you really think that businesses were queuing up to donate £10,000 per annum to make St Mirren a better football team? Did you really think that organisations with no St Mirren supporters on their committee were queuing up to donate £500 per year each to help sign a new forward?
Think of it this way, 10000hours will be opening the cupboard doors and saying to the community this is what we've got. You can use it if you want, but we ask that you tell us what you can give us in return.
The idea that the CIC is going to take membership fees off corporate and community members and give nothing in return is just laughable.
Dear oh dear. Some quality backtracking in that post Stuart.
You began by saying that it was all about the community and now you are saying that it is about working "together for each others benefit" and giving something in return.
Let's look at it this way - you are desperate to try and make out that the CIC is ALL about the community and not about St. Mirren. You are wrong.
I don't know how you managed to come to that conclusion from that short paragraph you've quoted.
Everything you've posted here backs up my conclusion from that short paragraph!
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read carefully please
never said St Mirren were not mentioned - I said mission - no mission for St Mirren
The very first line states:
"Do you want a successful St. Mirren".
In my opinion that indicates a mission.
Maybe I haven't read that carefully enough mind you.
its all about the CIC, its all about the community, the club(football team) in my opinion will be secondary
Again, looking at the document, it doesn't seem that way in my opinion.
If what you are saying is correct you'd think the front page would be illustrated with nice pictures of the community in Paisley, etc.
However, what it shows is a huge picture the St. Mirren FC club badge and photos of St. Mirren players, past & present.
Again, in my opinion its all about the club and how the club can benefit the community.
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read carefully please
never said St Mirren were not mentioned - I said mission - no mission for St Mirren
The very first line states:
"Do you want a successful St. Mirren".
In my opinion that indicates a mission.
Maybe I haven't read that carefully enough mind you.
its all about the CIC, its all about the community, the club(football team) in my opinion will be secondary
Again, looking at the document, it doesn't seem that way in my opinion.
If what you are saying is correct you'd think the front page would be illustrated with nice pictures of the community in Paisley, etc.
However, what it shows is a huge picture the St. Mirren FC club badge and photos of St. Mirren players, past & present.
Again, in my opinion its all about the club and how the club can benefit the community.
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Where exactly does it say this?
In the quote in my post.
I'll give it again as you appear to have difficulty reading.
Once the 52% is controlled by 10000hours, then the various partners involved can work together with the “club as the hub”, in order to benefit not only the club, but the wider community.As I stated, its my opinion that this means that they will be working to, first of all, benefit the club (the club does get the mention before the wider community) and then the wider community.
My opinion may be wrong but I can't really see how that sentence could be understood differently.
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That's the £3.3 which was initially £2.7m and which was reduced to £1.7m. You shouldn't believe everything you read in the PDE.
No. Its the £3.3m which is shown in the club's annual Report & Accounts.
Are you suggesting that the auditors have signed off falsified accounts?
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Taken from the 10000hours information document:
What is the idea behind 10000hours?The plan is that as a CIC we can access specialised funding, including soft loans,
grants, patient capital and social investment, for the purchase of community assets,
in this case the control of the assets of St Mirren FC via the purchase of the majority
shareholding. Once the 52% is controlled by 10000hours, then the various partners
involved can work together with the club as the hub, in order to benefit not only
the club, but the wider community.
There are quite clearly 2 seperate parts to this and in my opinion, the mission of the CIC is:
1. To buy a 52% controlling interest in St. Mirren FC and
2. Work to benefit the club firstly and also the wider community.
It seems quite clear to me.
Is Stuart Dickson saying that what is in this document is not true?
Is garzo saying that this paragraph has no specific mention of St. Mirren?
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Oh I could argue it all the way with you Gary but I think I'd be straying into territory where I would be betraying trust. I'd prefer to leave it at the point where I say you are wrong and if I'm wrong you can come back and have a go at me in 12 months time.
Dear oh dear. Your insider knowledge lines were always the best.
As for Gilmour, I think it's self evident that the club has stagnated despite selling it's principle asset
Mmmmm,
Let's rewind the start point to where he took over a club that was £3.3 million in the red, was on the verge of going out of business, had a falling down stadium, no training ground and had spent a number of years in the First Division.
The average attendance never reached the heights that Gilmour promised Ton Hendrie or Gus McPhersonWhat promise was this? Can you provide some figures?
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I'll make this up as i go along to fit in with your mindset...
You do not understand the model.
The mission as far as I can see is to make the CIC as successful as possible, no specific mission for St Mirren.
The football club is just a conduit to providing community benefit.
The converse may not be the main driver behind the project.
All CIC monies remain as CIC monies.
There is no specific mention of St. Mirren?
The VERY FIRST line in the initial information document on the 10000hours website states:
"Do you want a successful St. Mirren".
There are 33 specific mentions of St. Mirren in that document.
Its you who clearly does not understand the model.
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Ok Gary - I'll let you keep your misconceptions and in a years time we'll see which one of us was right.
Code: unable to argue further
Ok Stuart - I'll let you keep your misconceptions and in a years time we'll see which one of us was right.
(BTW - remind us again how right you were about Gilmour killing the club and the team not getting ino the SPL and then being relegated every season thereafter?)
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Sorry I'll edit this.
Gary - you've got the structure wrong. The CIC will own a controlling stake in St Mirren Ltd, it's not the other way around. The CIC is the parent group.
Yeh, I'm fully aware of that fact.
Any profits generated will be reinvested in the community, in facilities, projects etc.Completely wrong - I have no idea where you are getting that from and, frankly, its complete bollocks. If you look at the CIC regulator website itself you will even see case studies of CICs where the members themselves pocket dividends from the profits of their business.
The sole mission of 10000hours is to buy out the majority shareholding in St. Mirren FC Ltd in order to give the community an in interest in the club and to then make the club as successful as it can.
Its got absolutely nothing at all to do with generating profits to reinvest in the community for facilities, projects, etc. Absolutely nothing at all.
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Gary - I've edited that post and hopefully made it clearer.
The 10000hours documents are online and the structures are pretty clear. St Mirren Ltd will be a trading arm for the parent CIC group. 10000hours isn't going to stop dead at St Mirren.
Yeh, I've been having a look.
The very first line of their information booklet states
"Do you want a successful St. Mirren"
Absolutely everything on their website talks about achieving success for St. Mirren as this will benefit the community.
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Ok Kenny, lets say there is an issue at the club. Your Centre Half has been pumping the Right Backs wife. Now one refuses to play football with the other. You've got an offer on the table well below perceived market value but it's obvious that if you are in full possession of the facts accepting the bid is the best thing you can do. How would you deal with that? E-mail all 700 odd members to give them all the sordid details of what has been an embarrassing episode for all concerned and hope there isn't a journalist amongst them? How would you get them to accept that a player rated at £200k+ should be sold for £50,000?
Surely the BoDs of St. Mirren FC Ltd's legal duty is to do what is in the best interest of St. Mirren FC Ltd as a business and its shareholders (48% of whom will not be owned by the CIC)?
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First paragraph is correct and true.
Second paragraph is correct and true.
Paragraph three I assume comes from a huge leap in logic and it's a load of bollocks. Sorry Gary but it is. Funders are not throwing money into the 10000hours project to make St Mirren a successful football club.
So if the mission isn't to make St. Mirren successful (as presumably that is the benefit to the community), what is the mission?
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Opinion is always accepted as such but when you state the trading of the CIC and profits of the CIC will be as above then it is clearly wrong and you have made it up.
Yeh - as I said, I made up my opinion.
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you've just made that up
Well yeh - I usually make up my own opinions!
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David - I'm kind of surprised that I have to post this but the CIC is a Community Interest Company. 10,000hours SHOULD be more interested in the community than the football club, if it's not then it's not functioning properly.
No, I don't think so.
CICs are limited companies, with special additional features, created for the use of people who want to conduct a business or other activity for community benefit, and not purely for private advantage. This is achieved by a "community interest test" and "asset lock", which ensure that the CIC is established for community purposes and the assets and profits are dedicated to these purposes.
The "business activity" in respect of 10000hours is St. Mirren FC Ltd and the "community interest test" is that 10000hours run St. Mirren FC Ltf forteh benefit of the community and any profit the CIC makes is used for the benefit of St. Mirren FC Ltd.
The CIC should therefore be primarily concerned with the football club, the aim being that a successful football club will benefit the community.
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As far as I'm aware, Chris Hogg is with ICT
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I can see why people would be happy with Barron at LB, he was decent there, but with Thomson in the team I think we need players on either wing who can ping the ball into the box comfortably. Div can't really do that on his right side, never mind his left. LB has to be THE main priority before going any further.
I agree that we need a left sided player who can ping balls into the box. Whether it be a left back or a left sided midfielder I don't think matters greatly.
For example, Barron at left back and Graham carey at left midfield would suit me.
I don't think that 2 right footed players on the left would be ideal though (albeit it worked for Dundee Utd in the 80s - Malpas / Bannon).
Maybe McLean can emerge as the left footer?
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I know Barron can if need be, but I would prefer a player who can play there comfortably.
Barron won a stack of POY awards at left back - I'd say that was fairly comfortable.
St. Mirren operated for most of the 80s without a left footed left back - the most successful era in our history. We won the Scottish Cup in 1959 & 1987 without a left footed left back.
c*ltic won the European Cup with a right footed left back, Aberdeen won the European Cup Winners Cup with a right footed left back, Dundee United reached the European Cup Semi Final and UEFA Cup Final and won the Premier League with a right footed left back, Manchester United won the Champions League in 1999 with a right footed left back, etc, etc.
If its good enough for them then its good enough for us!
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I agree that we need a centre half, left back, Midfielder, and striker, but all but the left back could be squad players, I wouldn't mind starting with Mair & McGregor for example. But the glaring shortfall is Left Back again, either Paterson or buchanan or (preferably) both would fit the bill - but are we close?
With Thompson, Hasslbaink, McShane and McGowan already on the books, do you really think Lennon is after another striker?
As for left back, David Barron can play there if need be.
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So looks like DL is looking at players who have had SPL experience this time round, if we look at the players he has signed, rather that unproven players.
Who is out there then to fill rolls we need that have SPL experience in
Centre back, Left back, Creative midfielder, Striker?
Centre back
Brian McLean was with Motherwell and Falkirk in the SPL. Always thought he was good in the air.
Chris Hogg was with Hibs and ICT in the SPL. Always thought he was pretty solid.
Left back
Jim Paterson - played in the SPL before and is an experienced player.
David Buchanan - released from Accies after they went down. what I have seem of him he seems alright.
Creative midfielder
Stephen Hughes - Able to chip in with a few goals in their time in SPL.
Andy Dorman - Able to chip in with a few goals in their time in SPL.
Striker
Colin Nish - he has played most of his time in the SPL. I think of him like a Higdon type. If we were to get him, could DL make him have a season like Higdon's?
Strikers that have been released by SPL sides
The Fakes
Peter MacDonald (Released)
Collin Samuel (Released)
Scott Dobie (Released)
Hibs
Darryl Duffy (Released)
Derek Riordan (Released)
Colin Nish (Released)
Who else is out there that could have the SPL quality that we need and are looking for?
edited to add in other strikers that have been released by SPL sides.
With 2 of Thompson, Hasselbaink & McShane battling for strikers positions with Paul McGowan also able to play up front and McQuade in reserve, I can't see us signing another striker.
As for the "creative midfielder", we already have McLean & Mooy.
I think that a centre half and a left back are the priorities.
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See, there you go again pigeonholing every Saints fan and talking pish
You're one of the ones I was talking about.
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Gary if you are like me and came on here to look at the negatives of the cic (which there are) then you are backing the wrong cowboy. Yule ran out of bullets a long time ago and then started soiling his hands by scratching in the mud for something else to throw. He came up with the vulnerable kids at the kibble (shame on him). If you read his rant you will see he is in fact not against the cic but as a shareholder in St Mirren wants £20 per share for his minority holding putting the cost of a buyover at £4000,000. It means nothing to him that a minority shareholding is worthless and that no matter who buys St Mirren it will still be worthless. He just can't get his head around the fact that for £10 per month a cic member can elect a board. There are some others on here who i agree have been given too much of a hard time by St Sid etc.....but no Gary not him.....or should i say they.
Hi Richard.
To be fair to you, just from reading your posts on this forum (using your different alias) and also from having spoken to you, I do actually believe you will make a success of this project.
A word of warning however - and I suspect you already have a feeling regarding this - unless you win the Champions League you will be the subject of much abuse. Saints fans have very unrealistic expectations.
1ST CIC SCENARIO
in 10000Hours Archive
Posted
Deary me, reduced to petty insults now.
Don't cry about it Stuart.