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Everything posted by animal
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Sorry to mix up your threads DIV but I think this is also a valid comment for this one On another thread you said :- ""None of the community stuff that is happening just now has anything to do with the CIC, it's been going on for years."" Why should it not have something to do with the CIC ? You have raised an interesting point in my mind. Why does the CIC not seem to involve the local Council who I understand have put hundreds of thousands of pounds into the community football schemes via St. Mirren ? Why are Mr. Atkinson and Co. not asking the Council to take part in his scheme - I don't see their logo on the 10,000 hours web site. Could it be that the Council have enough lawyers and accountants to hand that they might see the potential flaws in the scheme ???
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Some major share info here:= http://www.paisleydailyexpress.co.uk/renfrewshire-sport/renfrewshire-football/renfrewshire-football-st-mirren/2010/05/12/scott-made-two-bids-to-buy-the-buddies-87085-26425207/
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We are in the fortunate position that we don't really need to advertise. The vast bulk of our work is repeat business from satisfied clients. We do however spend several thousand pounds a year with St. Mirren.
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That of course assumes that any businesses have signed up and promised the 10K a year. If no one comes forward that will be very interesting. Might be easier to get a 'community group' to own up since they don't seem to have to put any hard cash on the table - well I am assuming that the likes of Accord Hospice don't have cash to spare on the running of a football club.
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Having run a successful business for over 30 years I think I have more than just a clue. What kind of business are you in ? Clearly one that does not involve much contact with the outside world, dealing with people, diplomatic or communication skills !
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YES !
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I suppose that would depend on the scheme being designed to fail.
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I did not tell them anything. It's been up to you, Mr. A and Co. to provide that kind of information, and you have all failed to do so. No one can see anything on offer so far which would make them part with their hard earned cash, and they can't think of anything else which could. I find it hard to see anything that would make me part with £10 a month let alone £10,000 a year.
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Yes, briefly. He suspects he may have a degree of difficulty in retrieving his cash if in say the middle of year two the scheme collapses.
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Took some time before, during and after today's game to ask a few business owners I know if they would be putting in £10,000 to the CIC scheme. Many currently sponsor a shirt, take a track-side ad, take corporate hospitality several times a year, attend the club dinners etc etc. None will be paying into the scheme. Not one sees how this can work. Some have registered to get more info. One sees it as a potential scam. All are concerned that the future of the Club is at stake. Most are really concerned by the lack of detail provided by the CIC 'sponsors'. All would be happy to see SG and Co. get their money back out of the Club but not at the expense of its potential demise. Those that are shareholders feel they will be marginalized even more than they are now.
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We are on the verge of an astonishing legacy of debt. We are about to embark on a journey that could end in disaster or if we are really lucky a dead end. Playing on a different level - possibly the Second Division. Yes we could be big news how about"St Mirren Sunk" as a headline. Not many organisations wanting associated with that ! What are you on - is it legal - is it expensive - does it have any other serious side effects ?
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No, I wish I was ££££££ !
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I have signed up and think the whole idea is bordering on madness - so please don't think that all 600 are in favor. We just want to find out how mad it is !
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The main bit I have a problem with is the "soft loan". Who will provide the approximately £2,000,000 soft loan, and why would anyone do this ? What happens when the income from the CIC fails to pay the interest let alone the capital on the loan ? Will gate money and TV money have to come from the club side of this scheme to fill the gap ? Any one who thinks a bar at Greenhill Road open for two or three hours every second week for part of the year will be a financial goldmine is living in a dream world.
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Yes, Sid I think you have finally summed up the problem - good night - see you all tomorrow.
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Please please tell me Sid where do you get the £2,000,000 in unsecured loans ??
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Still no answer to the BIG question as someone else said :- ""Individuals contributions = 300 x £120 pa = £36,000 pa Corporate contributions = 12 (?) x £10,000 pa = £120,000 pa Total = £156,000 pa going into the CIC right? So that's money going into the CIC, not the club - the CIC which has no other major contributions from the people leading it. This money is funding the purchase of the club and nothing else? So the CIC has a huge shortfall to the tune of £1,844,000 which has to be made up of either grants or loans (debt for the CIC (but the asset being the stadium is protected)). At the numbers stated above it'd take over 13 years to re-pay that money through the contributions into the CIC."" And where is the income stream to finance this ????
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OK so who has pledged £10,000 a year ?
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Are these the 'companies' who have pledged £10,000 ? Why would a hospice pay out £10,000 a year ? Have PACE got £10,000 to pay out ? Why are the companies in involved ""very fluid and fast-moving at the minute"" ? Either they have signed up or they have not. Suspect they might not be very pleased if their logo is being used with out their agreement.
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I think Barcelona were quoted in this piece. They are 100% CIC you could argue. Not sure if this is a good comparison ! Still no mention of where the £2,000,000 is coming from. Did Chick not think to ask that ?
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Any chance of the web site authors making the logos of the supporting organisations bigger so that we can read them.
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This post from the official site is worth a read:- For what its worth here's my worries over this. Say a library was a CIC. They get locals to contribute £1 a week or similar. They use the money to keep the library and employ a librarian. At the end of the year they have £XX left. They re-invest the money in more books. All well and good. Everyone benefits and so on. That is how it is supposed to work. Now to us. If we have a CIC that votes as a bloc vote with 52% then thats the end of any kind of democracy within the football club. Even at present that 52% can splinter due to a difference of opinion then change the dynamic of any decision and vote with the remainder of the shareholders, many of whom have put in cash two or three times over the years knowing fine well they will never see it back. With this it will always be the CIC that makes any decision with no prospect of change. unhealthy. If the CIC takes over a club with NO DEBT by taking on a mix of loans etc then effectively we will have gone from a debt free position to being 'owned' by an organisation with huge debt. That debt will have to be cleared. The only sizeable asset available would be the income stream from the club. We sell a player the profit goes to clear the debt... 52% control would ensure that. Where with all this debt would cash, real cash come from to INVEST in the club? It seems that we would have driven our football club up a cul de sac with no chance of reversal. That is a poor situation to find ourselves in after all the problems of the last few years. I read a couple of papers today, none of the articles mentioned football, the club and its playing future... or ambition to climb higher. I was also disappointed to see us described as a boutique football club! We are certainly not 'wee'... I've never heard a fan describe our club as that. I have heard it said that this system would work no matter what level we play at. So, the prospect of no cash... possible future relegation... how would we get back when we have owners?... It is a worry. As in life you should always have alternatives. There seem to be none here. Not trying to be negative just looking at the overall situation and to be honest, yes, seeing flaws that could well come back to haunt us in the not too distant future. I have looked into the CIC thing and it does have its merits, my fear though is that it was never designed for a professional football club on our scale, that in itself should guarantee problems ahead. Just thought I would contribute.
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I suspect I am on the right track when all you can offer in return is personal abuse.
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Are you seriously telling me that someone is going to lend Mr. Atkinson a seven figure sum without security of some sort. Please let me know where I can get a deal like that. Sounds a bit too good to be true. Are you honestly saying that if your CIC goes 'tits up' you are sure that it will not effect St Mirren ?
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And the debt will be secured on ???