RickMcD

I really think you should give it a rest. Plenty of us have reservations and we all have to make a judgement. There is always a risk. Do you go out in the morning? You have opposed virtually everything from day one and I personally feel that this latest post is mischief making. If it all goes arse over tit, we will remember your warnings. If we morph into Newco Rangers or somebody else equally nasty, we'll remember how you helped.

Well put,Drew. Everything you have said echoes my thoughts entirely. Life's a risk, a punt if you like. The model that 10,000 Hours have presented isn't perfect but it's surely a reasonable prototype that can be altered and improved once up and running. I agree too that this may be the last bash we'll get at fan ownership.

I can sympathise with that,Sid. I'm borderline too as I think you realise. I still have a couple of days to change my mind.Again. Let's see what else crawls out the woodwork. Whatever happened to good old fashioned truth? Just the facts, no spin.

I didn't mean to imply that there is negativity in a non St.Mirren fan becoming the new owner. If someone with the readies comes along and buys the club outright and at the same time throws a million or two in the pot, he'll get my support. With the 10.000 hours proposal there's an element of the devil we know.We more or less know the proposals. The big debatable point is can the debt be serviced and there's the rub. A fairly informed body thinks it can. If the club becomes fan owned then there is surely a collective will to make it work. Anything else is a complete unknown and fan ownership is probably out the window. Is there an alternative?

That's quite right,Sid. I've been sitting on the fence all this time. The whole bloody argument is dragging on and is simply going round in circles. i'm going for it even although i share some of your concerns. Perfect solutions aren't always available and that's clearly the position here. Doing nothing is just as likely to carry at least the same degree of risk. Can you blame the consortium for becoming a bit impatient. I don't although they surely have to accept some of the blame. They promoted the CIC as if it was the only show in town but clearly it no longer is. Or is it still? I don't think so.

What do we do then,Sid? This just might be as good as it gets. A white knight St.Mirren loving fan might come galloping along but he has been taking his time if he exists. Are you suggesting the best thing is for the 10.000 hours proposals get kicked into touch and it's back to the drawing board playing Russian Roulette that the consortium won't sell to Whyte Mark 4 or whatever the hell we've got to?.That has to be a hell of a risk. A few short weeks ago you were waxing eloquent that SG would never let us down. It's a seismic shift in your position.

Obviously born without a sense of humour. Don't let it hold you back. I'm not totally happy with any of the scenarios before us and that includes the Co-Op/ CIC option. There is an element of risk whoever or whatever becomes the next owner of St.Mirren. I think the 10,000 hours plan might work well. if you don't like it I respect your right to do nothing. If you think my comments were meant to be scaremongering then possibly that indicates again the level of virtually paranoia which exists among the 'no' brigade. Those making the choice are at least backing a recognisable option. Those knocking it back are hoping against hope that something better crops up. Maybe it will. I can live with a democratic decision.

Replying to Somner9's original question, it's so nasty because that's what St.Mirren fans have always done best. Carp at the team, carp at the management and then carp at one another. But even by our standards, I've found a lot of the content of this thread pretty depressing. We're at a pivotal point for the club's future and it's really disappointing to hear so much negativity. I regard myself as reasonably bright but I've struggled to get my head round exactly what the CIC in its original form was really trying to achieve. Partly that was because the 10,000 hours campaign has to be the most amateurish I have ever witnessed. This has been pointed out before so no point in going over it again. I have no doubt,however, that they were and still are well intentioned and have the best interests of St.Mirren at heart. We know though that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. A year or two ago if I had been asked if fan ownership was a good thing I would have had quite a few doubts and I still have some. The debacle up the road has changed that and if fan ownership really can eradicate the likes of capture by a Newco Rangers or any other crowd of assholes, we should go for it. What we all want is a successful and financially sound St.Mirren. Any investment involves an element of risk and hopefully no one is going to invest more than they can afford to lose. This could well be the last chance of achieving fan ownership. A lot has been made of one man one vote. OK for politics but I'm not convinced it's absolutely essential for a football team. Big committees quite often achieve hee haw and have a succession of greetin' meetins. I worry too that some guys still think they'll get picking the team. I've got a nightmare vision of 750 guys picking the team for the first game of the season. Can you imagine it? The vote for centre half. Cheesy 340, McGregor 360, Bobby Reid 25, Jackie McGugan 22, Willie Telfer 3. Trouble was in my nightmare, I was one of the guys that voted for big Wullie Telfer! It's make your mind up time big style now. There are difficulties out there but I believe the risks are worthwhile. Some of the alternatives might be the death knell of our beloved St.Mirren.

Big Ian is a happily married man so what are you implying? If he ever forgot his marriage vows I doubt if a nun would have featured. Mind you I have heard some great stories over here about nuns when they get out of the habit.

In my opinion that post is up there amongst the greats on this forum.

Rangers will survive in some form. I haven't doubted that from day one. It will be a disgrace if they are allowed to stay in the league that they won several times by cheating and illegal means for which incidentally I still hope criminal charges haven't been completely ruled out. If Rangers are allowed to stay in the SPL, presumably it will be enshrined in the rules that neither Rangers nor Celtic can ever be relegated. That seems to be what is being agreed. A wounded Rangers with no money, the three year ban from Europe and the embargo on signing players just could struggle next season. Oh, I just remembered. Didn't Doncaster already say these punishments could be set aside on appeal. There's a surprise!

If the article in today's Sunday Mail by Gordon Waddell is accurate, if the SPL let newco Rangers into the league next year they have no powers to punish them. The vote has to be simply yes or no with no strings attached. It's there online so you can all make of it what you like. We already had more or less come to the conclusion that all SPL club chairmen can be bought and moral considerations are only for honest people but if they were going into that meeting with that knowledge and were still prepared to let them in, then may they rot in hell. We, the fans, are worthy of no consideration. There's a surprise.

The report that all SPL chairmen are to be involved in the vote about Rangers situation and a potential backlash seems to me to speak volumes. If they vote against Rangers we know well how their fans will react. If they vote against they know how the fans of all the other clubs will react. I think the SPL chairmen fully intend to vote to keep Rangers in the league no matter what. UEFA might have something to say but I wouldn't hold my breath. Does anyone know if it is in the gift of the SPL and the club chairmen to do that? Could it be contested in the courts?

Shull, you disappoint me with your refusal to give Danny any credit for what has been a pretty good season. It could have been better and the defeat by Ayr United was hard to take but supporting St.Mirren was never meant to be easy. You're in danger of being permanently berthed in the dark side where you can't ever say anything nice about our current set-up or management team. You're a naughty 50yr.old taxi driver.

Fair enough,Stu, but doesn't it again demonstrate a lack of communication? Richard should explain exactly what he wants, spell it out. He could do it in this forum. I genuinely believe there are some talented guys who feature on these pages regularly (Don't all blush at once) who might come forward if invited. Almost all of us have the best interests of St.Mirren at heart. The events of the last couple of months have demostrated just how much more comfortable we would be if the CIC/Co-Op entity was in force.

I think it's unfair to call it a club, Stu. I don't see how it can count as a finite body until it completes all the formalities. At best it is an embryo club made up of a disparate group of people. If Richard needs someone to handle the PR, and I think he does, it should have been sorted out a while back. You seem to want guys to volunteer to help when no one has asked for it.

Thanks for your efforts,Sid. Wasn't too hard to spot some of your creative editing. If I had to sum it up SMISA seemed in effect to be saying they have some doubts but no one else should really have any. Where I have to agree with them is that 10,000 hours have been conspicuous by their absence for weeks if not months at a time. If anyone asks what's going on they get the old answer of why don't you ring us. Why don't they push hard and improve their PR to at least schoolboy level?

I agree with you, faraway. Not a bad player. Don't know how he could be described as a complete liability.

Could you or someone else let us see it,Sid?

I know I keep saying this,Bluto, logically you should be absolutely correct. I agree completely that gers look like a hopeless basket case but I just can't help having this nagging doubt because I still believe that the powers-that-be in Scottish football will move heaven and earth to keep rangers in the SPL. Tomorrow might be interesting if the SPL chairmen go ahead with their meeting. That seems to have gone a bit quiet. It will be interesting to see if the chairmen prove to be as gutless as most of us think they are. Some of the stuff on P&B over the last 24 hours makes interesting reading. Taxman taking his time etc.

The reason I want the decision now is that if it goes the way it is anticipated it will, the Blue Knights on their bloody great chargers and the cowboy Miller on his bucking bronco will surely disappear into the sunset never to be seen again. That must mean liquidation.

The amount of denial coming from it seems to me the bulk of rangers fans is astonishing. I gather there is a significant percentage who realise that they thoroughly deserve severe punishment and should bite the bullet but we don't seem to hear much from them. I got an eye-opener down my local club last night. There's a guy who occasionally calls in and we had a chat about Rangers. He's a season ticket holder at Ibrox although he lives over here and doesn't miss many games. Now this guy owns a couple of companies and is a millionaire a few times over. A very bright man. But the shit he is spouting about poor rangers beggars belief. According to him rangers problems all started with Whyte. Murray is innocent. A kangaroo court acted illegally last week. Scottish football will die without rangers. There is nothing wrong with the majority of 11-1 business. Sky will withdraw instantly from Scottish football if no rangers. The whole world has it in for rangers who have only broken a few minor rules. It goes on and on. The only thing he said that slightly concerned me was that he has it on 'good authority' that rangers or the administrators are close to an agreement with HMRC which will probably mean rangers will survive. I don't really believe it but the one thing that gives it some credibility is the delay in any comment from HMRC. At one time it was expected in March then April. We're almost in May. Why the delay? Are they still coming up with fresh stuff? Surely they can make some kind of statement. If they know that what they have will force rangers into liquidation, they should come out with it now. I don't give a shit about the Blue Knights or Millar but even out of fairness to them, the taxman should speak before the end of the season.

I googled it too and came up with a form of sea snail. Thought it seemed unlikely. Mind you, without being unkind she was never a great beauty.

I don't know what happens if the hoped for numbers aren't reached but presumably it will all be called off. I don't think it's something to stick a plaster over. With all the negativity about it has to be a possibility. The spectre of newco rangers may visit us again.

Not 100% sure what you're getting at. To me the only conclusion I can reach is that whatever REA says and puts up, you want it to fail. Remind me what your alternative proposal is,