Crispian Crunchie Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 That's the trouble with ham-fisted sarcasm. It completely loses the point. If there ever was one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintnextlifetime Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 That's the trouble with ham-fisted sarcasm. It completely loses the point. If there ever was one. That sounds ironic.Mmmmh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chingford Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) 1984 has the Government of said nation willing the populace to grass on their neighbours as they may be plotting against the country and they should be denounced as an "Enemy of the State". There are also incidents of the police turning up on doorsteps in the middle of the night, kicking their way into houses of these said subversives and dragging them off for interrogation and, perhaps, "re-adjustment". There need be no evidence, just a suspicion is enough to point the finger. Now, I'm not sure exactly which Western civilisation actually does indulge in this, as I haven't really lived in that many. However, there is no way on earth anyone could ever say it happens in THIS country. I'm hoping you're being totally ironic, here, HHiBSS - I can't believe you'd back up CC... ...and you're not just waiting for someone to pop in and helpfully point out that a couple of lads living in Leytonstone, who their neighbours all confirmed had 'gone islamic' since their schooldays 'wif beards n stuff', were wakened in their bedrooms and shot by just such a force of polis? And have since been shown to be innocent of every charge that could have been concocted against them? ...or that a Jock left a pub in norf lahndahn carrying a chair leg in a plastic bag and someone told cops it was a gun so he got shot for that?(Edit: to STRESS he was shot - DEAD) ...or that scabloid newspapers set up phone lines for the GBP to call in and inform if their neighbours are suspicious and they print the addresses of 'paediatrics' who need burning out of their houses? It's far from sunshine and light in the UK. I voted for Ken Livingstone in London - till Thatcher undemocratically disbanded the GLC cos it went against her desires. Small wonder Ken's book was called 'if democracy worked they'd ban it', or something similar... Edited February 8, 2008 by chingford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispian Crunchie Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 a couple of lads living in Leytonstone, who their neighbours all confirmed had 'gone islamic' since their schooldays 'wif beards n stuff', were wakened in their bedrooms and shot by just such a force of polis?And have since been shown to be innocent of every charge that could have been concocted against them? ...or that a Jock left a pub in norf lahndahn carrying a chair leg in a plastic bag and someone told cops it was a gun so he got shot for that?(Edit: to STRESS he was shot - DEAD) ...or that scabloid newspapers set up phone lines for the GBP to call in and inform if their neighbours are suspicious and they print the addresses of 'paediatrics' who need burning out of their houses? All shocking and, thankfully, rare examples of the abuse of police powers, but by no means any indication that we are remotely close to living in a totalitarian police state. To claim that we are does a gross disservice to those living in places such as Burma, where there really is a totalitarian police state. The first example (and also that of Jean-Charles De Menezes, one presumes) is peculiar and exceptional over-reaction to (for want of a better phrase) "The War on Terror". The second a shocking example of what happens when you get f**kwits employed as police officers, and the third, well you unfortunately cannot legislate for Daily Mail f**kwittery in a country which treasures its free press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chingford Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 To claim that we are does a gross disservice to those living in places such as Burma, where there really is a totalitarian police state. My still salient point is that to ignore that a significant number of such examples can be easily found and quoted HERE IN MODERN-DAY UK, does a gross disservice to those who have suffered at the hands of the State, and its functionaries: press, police, army... ...and to those who will be in future firing lines. No pun intended. It may not be Burma but it's not all tickety-boo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 I've just started reading Rumplole and the Reign of Terror in which some of some of our lost civil rights, the use of hearsay evidence in court and the indefinite imprisonment of terrorist suspects are discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispian Crunchie Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 My still salient point is that to ignore that a significant number of such examples can be easily found and quoted HERE IN MODERN-DAY UK, does a gross disservice to those who have suffered at the hands of the State, and its functionaries: press, police, army......and to those who will be in future firing lines. No pun intended. Who's ignoring it? Not you, and not me - I'm certainly not denying those examples have taken place (in fact I pointed out one you'd forgotten to cite), but that's the point - they are very specific instances that are regrettable, but extremely uncommon. They certainly do not in any way lend validity or credibility to a comparison between the UK today and a totalitarian police state. It may not be Burma but it's not all tickety-boo. No, it's not all tickety boo, but it's a f**king sight better than Burma , Saudi Arabia or North Korea, which is my - still salient - point. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 So, does that kind of thing - the 1984 stuff - happen in Burma, Saudi Arabia & North Korea then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintnextlifetime Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Perhaps Bellmarsh prison was set up to aclimatize people to the living conditions- in Burma . Also , George Orwell wrote a book called Burmeese Days about his experiences there .So perhaps 1984 is refering to Burma rather than the "Stalinist" set up someone refered to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dani bongo Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Intellect alert : smart f**kers with heads stuck their own arses fighting over a f**king book. Its the f**king Oxford v Cambridge forum yous f**kers want. Now, how many f**ks was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sandman Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Intellect alert : smart f**kers with heads stuck their own arses fighting over a f**king book. Its the f**king Oxford v Cambridge forum yous f**kers want. Now, how many f**ks was that? A lot less than Trainspotting but a good first attempt.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dani bongo Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 A lot less than Trainspotting but a good first attempt.............. f**k off ya f**king f**k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chingford Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm certainly not denying those examples have taken place (in fact I pointed out one you'd forgotten to cite) No. Not forgotten. Too many to list. they are very specific instances that are regrettable, but extremely uncommon. We must disagree, then. Check this week's P.I. PAGE 26 - and how Azelle Rodney happened to be in the wrong car at the wrong time and happened to be shot SEVEN times in 'a pre-planned drugs surveillance operation'. Nowt to do with him and they'd been watching these people for a long time and yet... they couldn't tackle them safely in a safe place when this unrelated victim was not there? (The real baddies were unharmed btw...) Shot SEVEN f**kIN times and his family can't ask questions of why and who. Or they can... but be ignored... No, it's not all tickety boo, but it's a f**king sight better than Burma , Saudi Arabia or North Korea, which is my - still salient - point. . As I'm more concerned with the shite in this land than in the others you cite for irrelevant comparison, your "f**king sight better" is far more generous than mine. I widnae f**kin mind if it f**kin happened in f**kin Shetland, though... I hope this helps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispian Crunchie Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 As I'm more concerned with the shite in this land than in the others you cite for irrelevant comparison, your "f**king sight better" is far more generous than mine. I think you're in danger of losing sight of the point at issue, Ching. To remind you, it was whether or not the UK can usefully or validly be compared to a totalitarian police state akin to that portrayed by Eric Blair in his infamous novel Nineteen Eighty Four. The other countries I cite are highly relevant to this point, as they really are examples of totalitarian police states. Britain, despite the examples you've talked about, simply isn't. I find it quite remarkable that you seem to be insisting that it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chingford Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 OK... Late on Sat night. The point at issue for ME is that things that things that should 'only' be thought to happen in a totalitarian/1984 state - DO happen here. With appalling regularity. (What the f**k's the mega-bugging controvesry, if not THAT!?) I don't feel happy with the number of examples already on offer of such an appalling system being a reality. You think it's ok. This is not a furrin country. Your examples 'cited' are irrelevant to me. I hate the shite that's happening here. Now. In my examples. and the buggin thing.... which is still breaking news... However you've lost sight/cite of the real issue - which was/IS top 5 books. And I seldom pitch intae that.... Plus I don't actually give a f**k - being past it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispian Crunchie Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 (edited) You're quite right. Nineteen Eighty Four wouldn't be in my top five books. But you're not right to say I don't feel happy with the number of examples already on offer of such an appalling system being a reality.You think it's ok. I do not think it's okay, and have never said so, and I'd be grateful if you'd acknowledge that. I'm as appalled as you are at the examples cited. But I do not think they are evidence of "such an appalling syem being a reality". The bugging controversy - well, it's still very much a breaking story, and we'll see what we will see - but in a true totalitarian state we would never even have heard about such a story. Edited February 10, 2008 by Crispian Crunchie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Intellect alert : smart f**kers with heads stuck their own arses fighting over a f**king book. Its the f**king Oxford v Cambridge forum yous f**kers want. Now, how many f**ks was that? f**k off, ya plukey wee hing-oot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I do not think it's okay, and have never said so, and I'd be grateful if you'd acknowledge that. I'm as appalled as you are at the examples cited. But I do not think they are evidence of "such an appalling syem being a reality". The bugging controversy - well, it's still very much a breaking story, and we'll see what we will see - but in a true totalitarian state we would never even have heard about such a story. Well, it's gotta start somewhere. I mean first thing it's a firm handshake between friends and before ye know it forced anal sex and wondering "How the hell did this state of affairs come about?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispian Crunchie Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Well, it's gotta start somewhere. I mean first thing it's a firm handshake between friends and before ye know it forced anal sex and wondering "How the hell did this state of affairs come about?". With respect, HH, I fail to see how a description of how you spent your weekend is relevant here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 With respect, HH, I fail to see how a description of how you spent your weekend is relevant here. Taking such a metaphor as being an actuallity is evidence beyond all doubt as to your Grammar School bum-boyness. Did you grow the beard to hide the crust forming round your gob? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispian Crunchie Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 How does it go again? Oh yeah - WHOOOOOOOSSSSHH ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chingford Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 How does it come again? Oh yeah - WHOOOOOOOSSSSHH ! I fixed it for you, Old Grammarian... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 How does it go again? Oh yeah - WHOOOOOOOSSSSHH ! Ha ha! That's funny. Really, really funny. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispian Crunchie Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Ha ha! That's funny. Really, really funny. Well done. It's the way I tell 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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