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jimdickloyal

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On 14/07/2017 at 5:59 PM, Stu said:

Their new owner is the guy in charge of Dunkin' Donuts and Baskin Robbins. Being able to offer donuts and ice cream as a signing on fee trumps anything any Scottish club can offer.

Thank feck Harry Ramsden didn't want to sponsor us with Basher and Yards up front.

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On ‎14‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 1:35 PM, Soctty said:

They pull in barely any more fans than us, won't be getting much if anything in the way of TV money down in the National. Not sure living in London on a wage the likes of which Harry will be getting is a bonus. Expensive place to live.

Their average attendance last year was c.1100 higher than ours (in their worst ever season, they were playing their youth team by January) and I doubt the entrance price was any cheaper than ours. I doubt the TV money in the National (plenty games shown on BT Sport) is less than we get from BBC Alba... There is little doubt that Orient will be able to pay considerably more than us. That being said, you are right that Davis' money would go further in Paisley.

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56 minutes ago, Chris said:

Their average attendance last year was c.1100 higher than ours (in their worst ever season, they were playing their youth team by January) and I doubt the entrance price was any cheaper than ours. I doubt the TV money in the National (plenty games shown on BT Sport) is less than we get from BBC Alba... There is little doubt that Orient will be able to pay considerably more than us. That being said, you are right that Davis' money would go further in Paisley.

Match tickets, season tickets roughly the same price - they have slightly higher top price, but also have a much lower price in their family stand. TV deal - the maximum they;d make if all games were televised would be around £170k, but far more likely to be closer to half of that. I'm pretty sure we will have made considerably more than that last season, and also had the windfall from the Celtic game which would have added anther £250-£300k. Attendance-wise they were 4,500 against 3,400 for us - not a huge difference, and one which should change in our favour this season as we hopefully have a much better season while they flounder in the National League.

 

There is certainly some doubt that they would pay considerably more - or any more - than us at this point, having dropped out of the league and having been in severe financial trouble. As the new owner says - they're starting from scratch in terms of players, scouts, and more. 

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20 minutes ago, Soctty said:

Match tickets, season tickets roughly the same price - they have slightly higher top price, but also have a much lower price in their family stand. TV deal - the maximum they;d make if all games were televised would be around £170k, but far more likely to be closer to half of that. I'm pretty sure we will have made considerably more than that last season, and also had the windfall from the Celtic game which would have added anther £250-£300k. Attendance-wise they were 4,500 against 3,400 for us - not a huge difference, and one which should change in our favour this season as we hopefully have a much better season while they flounder in the National League.

 

There is certainly some doubt that they would pay considerably more - or any more - than us at this point, having dropped out of the league and having been in severe financial trouble. As the new owner says - they're starting from scratch in terms of players, scouts, and more. 

Not a huge difference?! Only about a third more than our gates every single week...! Let's say the average price of a seat at both clubs is £15, accounting for season tickets, concessions etc - that means they are pulling in an extra £16,500 every second week even before things like catering, merchandising etc. A very significant difference at our level, even if the prices are the same. I will take your word on that. I am also not going to check the BT Sport deal for the National League, but to suggest it will be less than we get from BBC Alba seems very unlikely.

I doubt our attendances will change greatly this year, even if we challenge - if anything, theirs are more likely to go up if they challenge for the league (although that in itself seems unlikely). They have been bought over by an extremely rich individual, so their past financial trouble won't be much of a factor. I don't see how starting over means they will pay more or less than us - it's just a question of budget. Scottish Championship clubs can't even begin to compete.

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4 minutes ago, Chris said:

Not a huge difference?! Only about a third more than our gates every single week...! Let's say the average price of a seat at both clubs is £15, accounting for season tickets, concessions etc - that means they are pulling in an extra £16,500 every second week even before things like catering, merchandising etc. A very significant difference at our level, even if the prices are the same. I will take your word on that. I am also not going to check the BT Sport deal for the National League, but to suggest it will be less than we get from BBC Alba seems very unlikely.

I doubt our attendances will change greatly this year, even if we challenge - if anything, theirs are more likely to go up if they challenge for the league (although that in itself seems unlikely). They have been bought over by an extremely rich individual, so their past financial trouble won't be much of a factor. I don't see how starting over means they will pay more or less than us - it's just a question of budget. Scottish Championship clubs can't even begin to compete.

If season ticket sales are anything to go by , I can definitely see our average attendances go up . Especially if we are in challenging a the right end of the table .

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

Not a huge difference?! Only about a third more than our gates every single week...! Let's say the average price of a seat at both clubs is £15, accounting for season tickets, concessions etc - that means they are pulling in an extra £16,500 every second week even before things like catering, merchandising etc. A very significant difference at our level, even if the prices are the same. I will take your word on that. I am also not going to check the BT Sport deal for the National League, but to suggest it will be less than we get from BBC Alba seems very unlikely.

I doubt our attendances will change greatly this year, even if we challenge - if anything, theirs are more likely to go up if they challenge for the league (although that in itself seems unlikely). They have been bought over by an extremely rich individual, so their past financial trouble won't be much of a factor. I don't see how starting over means they will pay more or less than us - it's just a question of budget. Scottish Championship clubs can't even begin to compete.

Season ticket sales are up markedly on last season - we averaged nearly 4,500 in our final 3 games against teams with little to no away support when the feelgood factor was back - merchandising and catering isn't going to make a huge difference. 

I've checked the TV deals out for you - our TV deal with BT Sport would have got us £200k last season, based on the projected new deal which would see that rise to £272,500 for finishing 7th, and considerably more for finishing top 4 - we don't just get money from BBC Alba... https://stv.tv/sport/football/1383192-this-is-how-much-your-team-would-make-in-new-spfl-tv-deal/

National League TV deal is worth £300k in total, making it impossible for Leyton Orient to get anywhere near that figure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyton_Orient_F.C.

So, for the reasons stated, I disagree greatly with your assertions.

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2 hours ago, Chris said:

Not a huge difference?! Only about a third more than our gates every single week...! Let's say the average price of a seat at both clubs is £15, accounting for season tickets, concessions etc - that means they are pulling in an extra £16,500 every second week even before things like catering, merchandising etc. A very significant difference at our level, even if the prices are the same. I will take your word on that. I am also not going to check the BT Sport deal for the National League, but to suggest it will be less than we get from BBC Alba seems very unlikely

The O's tickets are more expensive than Saints.

https://www.leytonorient.com/tickets/ticket-prices/

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1 hour ago, Soctty said:

Season ticket sales are up markedly on last season - we averaged nearly 4,500 in our final 3 games against teams with little to no away support when the feelgood factor was back - merchandising and catering isn't going to make a huge difference. 

I've checked the TV deals out for you - our TV deal with BT Sport would have got us £200k last season, based on the projected new deal which would see that rise to £272,500 for finishing 7th, and considerably more for finishing top 4 - we don't just get money from BBC Alba... https://stv.tv/sport/football/1383192-this-is-how-much-your-team-would-make-in-new-spfl-tv-deal/

National League TV deal is worth £300k in total, making it impossible for Leyton Orient to get anywhere near that figure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyton_Orient_F.C.

So, for the reasons stated, I disagree greatly with your assertions.

Let's assume Orient received not a single penny from TV last season (which is obviously not the case). They would only take 12 home game to earn more than our £200k (which is not even accurate: see below) from last season, given their considerably higher gates. Merchandising, catering, hospitality and sponsorship will all be more lucrative in London than they are in Paisley. Prize money in League Two will also be greater than in the Scottish Championship, I would have thought. Counting three games at the end of the season seems to have no relevance to anything, frankly.

As for checking the deals: firstly, the Scottish figures you quote are for total revenue from the SPFL, not just TV money, if you read the article. Secondly, Wikipedia does indeed link to an article stating that the National League TV deal signed in 2013 was worth £300k... Not sure what that has to do with this year's deal, and obviously it doesn't include other revenues received from the League. Not sure why you are arguing such an obvious point!

1 hour ago, antrin said:

The O's tickets are more expensive than Saints.

https://www.leytonorient.com/tickets/ticket-prices/

I'm not surprised!

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16 hours ago, Chris said:

Let's assume Orient received not a single penny from TV last season (which is obviously not the case). They would only take 12 home game to earn more than our £200k (which is not even accurate: see below) from last season, given their considerably higher gates. Merchandising, catering, hospitality and sponsorship will all be more lucrative in London than they are in Paisley. Prize money in League Two will also be greater than in the Scottish Championship, I would have thought. Counting three games at the end of the season seems to have no relevance to anything, frankly.

As for checking the deals: firstly, the Scottish figures you quote are for total revenue from the SPFL, not just TV money, if you read the article. Secondly, Wikipedia does indeed link to an article stating that the National League TV deal signed in 2013 was worth £300k... Not sure what that has to do with this year's deal, and obviously it doesn't include other revenues received from the League. Not sure why you are arguing such an obvious point!

I'm not surprised!

You're bringing in complete unknowns again - we don't know what they make from merchandising, catering, hospitality or sponsorship. Being in London only affects sponsorship when you a.) get huge crowds and b.) are on the telly all the time. Still an unknown, but your assumptions don't add up.

Prize money - another unknown which you speculate about. We've no idea how much it is in the National League and I can find no record of it in my brief search. The TV deal I referenced was the most recent I can find details of. It is a reasonable assumption based on this that the figure won't have changed enormously. Prize money is predominantly comprised of TV money.

Regarding the figures for the TV deal, you are correct - these figures are for total revenue from the SPFL rather than just TV money. For information purposes the total payout in 2016/17 was £21.1 million, of which £20 million was from TV deals. In percentage terms that's 95% of the total income coming from TV money, so while your point is correct, it has very little effect on the figure I gave. Saints TV money would then be £190,000, rising to around £259,000 with the new deal. The deal for the entire National League was £300k in 2013, so a generous estimate of the current deal would be £500k? Split between 24 clubs that's just under £21k each. Giving Orient the benefit of being on telly a wee bit more we could maybe stretch that to £40k? Generous estimates.

Thanks for the debate - I still disagree greatly... :wink:

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17 hours ago, antrin said:

The O's tickets are more expensive than Saints.

https://www.leytonorient.com/tickets/ticket-prices/

Seems pretty similar to our ticket prices. I note also that their hospitality prices come in at just £55 including VAT - surprising since they're in London... :wink:

Ours come in at £75+VAT (£90) without drinks, and £95+Vat (£114) without drinks.

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32 minutes ago, Soctty said:

Seems pretty similar to our ticket prices. 

Except for the equivalent seats being £8.00 (sometimes only £6.00 ) more for concessions.

AND those Vanarama prices reflect the recent plummet out of the big leagues.

last season prices were higher...

 

so you could say the disadvantaged will be paying the cost of failure. As usual...

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1 minute ago, antrin said:

Except for the equivalent seats being £8.00 (sometimes only £6.00 ) more for concessions.

AND those Vanarama prices reflect the recent plummet out of the big leagues.

last season prices were higher...

 

so you could say the disadvantaged will be paying the cost of failure. As usual...

Offset by general admission being cheaper than our normal league prices in half their ground:

Baskin Robbins Family Stand - £18

Tommy Johnston South Stand - £18

West & East Stands - £20

Suppose it depends on how many concessions go along.

 

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1 hour ago, Soctty said:

You're bringing in complete unknowns again - we don't know what they make from merchandising, catering, hospitality or sponsorship. Being in London only affects sponsorship when you a.) get huge crowds and b.) are on the telly all the time. Still an unknown, but your assumptions don't add up.

Prize money - another unknown which you speculate about. We've no idea how much it is in the National League and I can find no record of it in my brief search. The TV deal I referenced was the most recent I can find details of. It is a reasonable assumption based on this that the figure won't have changed enormously. Prize money is predominantly comprised of TV money.

Regarding the figures for the TV deal, you are correct - these figures are for total revenue from the SPFL rather than just TV money. For information purposes the total payout in 2016/17 was £21.1 million, of which £20 million was from TV deals. In percentage terms that's 95% of the total income coming from TV money, so while your point is correct, it has very little effect on the figure I gave. Saints TV money would then be £190,000, rising to around £259,000 with the new deal. The deal for the entire National League was £300k in 2013, so a generous estimate of the current deal would be £500k? Split between 24 clubs that's just under £21k each. Giving Orient the benefit of being on telly a wee bit more we could maybe stretch that to £40k? Generous estimates.

Thanks for the debate - I still disagree greatly... :wink:

All we know for sure is that their gates were considerably higher than ours last year. Whatever way you cut it, getting 1100 more punters every week paying - at a conservative estimate - £15 each, and taking into account the fact that they had 5 more home games in the league than us, means they have significantly greater gate receipts. About £380k based on those figures.

Do you really think all their other revenue streams are significantly lower than ours, if they get so many more punters through the gate? They will undoubtedly have paid players more than we did last year, and I see no reason why they will not continue to pay more than us next year, even if the National League TV deal is considerably lower than the League Two deal.

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53 minutes ago, Chris said:

All we know for sure is that their gates were considerably higher than ours last year. Whatever way you cut it, getting 1100 more punters every week paying - at a conservative estimate - £15 each, and taking into account the fact that they had 5 more home games in the league than us, means they have significantly greater gate receipts. About £380k based on those figures.

Do you really think all their other revenue streams are significantly lower than ours, if they get so many more punters through the gate? They will undoubtedly have paid players more than we did last year, and I see no reason why they will not continue to pay more than us next year, even if the National League TV deal is considerably lower than the League Two deal.

We know that when they weren't a non-league team their gates were higher than ours. We also know they've been relegated to the National League, and their gates are likely to suffer, added to the fact that their prices are now slightly lower than ours all in all.

You talk as if having 4,500 as opposed to 3,400 average gate consitutes a commercial bonanza for them - it doesn't. Both are very low crowds. They will have paid players more than us last year, as they were still in the Football League, benefiting from the TV deals and sponsorship that brings with it - they're non-league now, and their external income will plummet as their gate receipts also fall. It's basic stuff that happens when you fall through the trapdoor.

It's all academic anyway since Harry Davis is likely to be signing for Saints regardless... :ph34r:

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19 minutes ago, Soctty said:

We know that when they weren't a non-league team their gates were higher than ours. We also know they've been relegated to the National League, and their gates are likely to suffer, added to the fact that their prices are now slightly lower than ours all in all.

Their gates may well go up if they are challenging for promotion in a lower division as opposed to fighting relegation in a higher division.

 

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Just now, mcdowell76 said:

Their gates may well go up if they are challenging for promotion in a lower division as opposed to fighting relegation in a higher division.

 

Ssshhhh - you're ruining my argument... :lol:

Chances are the gates will go down initially, fans disillusioned with the club, unsure about new owner's motives... :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Soctty said:

Offset by general admission being cheaper than our normal league prices in half their ground:

Baskin Robbins Family Stand - £18

Tommy Johnston South Stand - £18

West & East Stands - £20

Suppose it depends on how many concessions go along to watch the Vanarama league.

 

As I say, diddy league - slightly diddier prices...

I'm no that bothered...

 

You've done well.  :)

 

 

 

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