bud77 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 How about this for a scenario............ If the club is sold in the next 2-3 weeks it could be the members of the CIC (ie the St.Mirren fans) that decide whether or not the club votes for or against a 10 team SPL I very much doubt that as the vote on 10 teams is now to take place on 18th April instead of this week. That's 4 weeks for the sale to go through, get details of the CIC out, have people pay, elect a CIC board and whatever and then brief them on full details of reconstruction so it could be debated and voted on - an extremely tight timescale. Besides I think the OF have already decided how they want the league to be run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 How about this for a scenario............ If the club is sold in the next 2-3 weeks it could be the members of the CIC (ie the St.Mirren fans) that decide whether or not the club votes for or against a 10 team SPL Not all the St. Mirren fans - just a subset of them who join the CIC (and that's assuming it's OMOV and not weighted by your investment in the CIC). Anyway I'm agin it for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread, but just to recap there's no financial benefit to the club in becoming a CIC, any tax breaks come from activities undertaken by the organisation and not it's status as a CIC, as well as this I'm also sceptical about how it's going to raise the £2M it's generally accepted the BoD want for their buy their 52% stake in the club. I will not be joining the CIC nor will I be giving them any of my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 I will not be joining the CIC nor will I be giving them any of my money. Then you are a very silly boy. Best to make a judgement when they actually present the full plan to the supporters. No supporter, not even the virtual quisling that is Div has seen the full plans. I have heard enough for me to be supportive and certainly nothing that would make me dismissive. There would need to be some outrageous revelation in the CIC plans for me not to join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Not all the St. Mirren fans - just a subset of them who join the CIC (and that's assuming it's OMOV and not weighted by your investment in the CIC). Anyway I'm agin it for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread, but just to recap there's no financial benefit to the club in becoming a CIC, any tax breaks come from activities undertaken by the organisation and not it's status as a CIC, as well as this I'm also sceptical about how it's going to raise the £2M it's generally accepted the BoD want for their buy their 52% stake in the club. I will not be joining the CIC nor will I be giving them any of my money. I don't think I will either unless the cloud of secrecy is lifted to reveal a sound financial scheme. Can someone (maybe even Mr. Atkinson) please tell us how much of the £2,000,000 in the bank. Or is it as I suspect, all fantasy football on a grand scale. Time to put up or shut up Mr. A. PS. I am still waiting to hear how tho 48% of us - the other shareholders fit into this fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don't think I will either unless the cloud of secrecy is lifted to reveal a sound financial scheme. That's a bizarre threat. There is no opportunity to pay any money until the full plan is presented. Is there a basis for your outrage or is it just your standard state of mind when in a position of voluntary ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 That's a bizarre threat. There is no opportunity to pay any money until the full plan is presented. Is there a basis for your outrage or is it just your standard state of mind when in a position of voluntary ignorance. It's not a threat it's a fact. I'm not outraged but just very concerned that the club is possibly heading for disaster. Almost a year gone and no public explanation of how this financial wizardry will actually work. What is the problem with Mr. A telling how he plans to find £2,000,000 in the next few days. Or is it the end of March 2111 he was taking about. Still no answer to the question what happens to the 48% shareholders. How can you support a scheme when you have no idea how it really works ? The latest rumor I hear is that Mr. A has cobbled together £300,000. Is this true ? If so where does the remaining £1,700,000 come from ? Was in Provan shop today - very sad - bargain basement sale of St. Mirren items. So much for COMMUNITY businesses Mr. A. I presume the shop will soon close. Didn't want to ask the staff. Do you want the same to happen to the Club ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackandwhite saints Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 IMO, Gilmour and Co can't be out of the door fast enough, can only benefit the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 It's not a threat it's a fact. Really, have you been asked for money? I must have missed that press release by the club. Always said I thought this would take longer. You seem to be very keen for this to fail for some reason. If it fails what will happen to the other shareholders 48%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldo_j Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 I don't think I will either unless the cloud of secrecy is lifted to reveal a sound financial scheme. Can someone (maybe even Mr. Atkinson) please tell us how much of the £2,000,000 in the bank. Or is it as I suspect, all fantasy football on a grand scale. Time to put up or shut up Mr. A. PS. I am still waiting to hear how tho 48% of us - the other shareholders fit into this fantasy. Well my good man....as has been suggested you should try get in touch with Mr Atkinson. I get that you are concerned by the wellbeing of the club, so are we all, but it's getting a bit tedious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Well my good man....as has been suggested you should try get in touch with Mr Atkinson. I get that you are concerned by the wellbeing of the club, so are we all, but it's getting a bit tedious. The only thing that is getting a bit tedious is the various friends of Mr. Atkinson telling me to get in touch with him. Why won't he come on here and tell EVERYONE how it all works ? What does he have to hide ????????????? Edited March 24, 2011 by animal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 The only thing that is getting a bit tedious is the various friends of Mr. Atkinson telling me to get in touch with him. Why won't he come on here and tell EVERYONE how it all works ? What does he have to hide ????????????? I see you have decided not to answer my question animal. Very much a one way street with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) I see you have decided not to answer my question animal. Very much a one way street with you. The only one not answering any real and important questions is your friend Mr. Atkinson. Edited March 25, 2011 by animal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pod Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 The only one not answering any real and important questions is your friend Mr. Atkinson. You said Mr.Atkinson is not answering any questions. Have you spoken or written to him.Has anyone. Besides,he's only one of the directors at present,not the chairman or owner. IMO- I don't think anything's going to happen until end of season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 He's not hiding, and he's not reticent to let us know what's going on - he's working on that very thing. Yes, I appreciate that at the AGM news was expected by (insert date here) and those dates came and went. As someone just said though, he's not a one-man band, there are a large group of people and organisations involved in this, and it takes time. I keep saying the same thing - no-one should blindly accept this as being a great idea, or a terrible one, until the launch. Then, make up your mind and ask questions... Questions and concerns will be invited. We're heading towards the launch of the plans, if previous dates have passed, I'd rather everyone involved had taken the time to present the plans properly. I'm looking forward to seeing how the plan is received, then I'll be asking my own questions before deciding whether to become an individual member or not. As a club we aren't in crisis. We have people in charge who want out, but they aren't shysters about to run off and leave us in the lurch. Financially we are OK, we aren't heading towards administration, or facing an angry HMRC. We don't NEED to rush anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I do not know much about the takeover but I would prefer it to be done properly unlike Neil Doncaster and his daft proposals. Explore some avenues and possibilities and continue to explore when more people come aboard until there is something kind of concrete to propose. Then seek further input and explore further possibilities until everyone involved knows what is being proposed, has had a say and that say has been heard and investigated. This all takes time. No rush. Better to get it right than push through something that is flawed with no support like League reconstruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I do not know much about the takeover but I would prefer it to be done properly unlike Neil Doncaster and his daft proposals. Explore some avenues and possibilities and continue to explore when more people come aboard until there is something kind of concrete to propose. Then seek further input and explore further possibilities until everyone involved knows what is being proposed, has had a say and that say has been heard and investigated. This all takes time. No rush. Better to get it right than push through something that is flawed with no support like League reconstruction. There has to be a proposal before people can decide if they want to be on board otherwise it is just like the SPL plans, we'll make it up as we go along so that everyone comes on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 There has to be a proposal before people can decide if they want to be on board otherwise it is just like the SPL plans, we'll make it up as we go along so that everyone comes on board. Not so. You come up with a idea first then start to flesh it out and produce a rough plan for implementing the idea as more people come on board and new ideas and viewpoints are introduced. Eventually you have a proposal when everyone concerned has had their say which is then modified, voted for or voted against. The SPL are not making it up as they go along. 7 people decided on a proposal then they tried to push that proposal to everyone else. Many , many stakeholders - other SPL clubs, SFL clubs, SFA, fans and media - had no say in the proposal and any new ideas and viewpoints are totally ignored. I run projects. I come up with ideas. I chat to trusted people to see obvious flaws or get new ideas (for and against). I then take these loose plans and bounce them off the people directly affected to get their viewpoint. I then modify the plan. I then take it to a wider audience to see what they think. Eventually when everyone has their say we put forward a proposal when everyone knows the background, options, fors and againsts, and alternatives. Then we vote when everyone has been consulted. If you don't take people with you when introducing change you are lost. Even if everyone doesn't get what they want they want to know what the possibilities are and have some input even if it is rejected for the final proposals or not voted for in the final proposals. Its called consultation. A word Neil Doncaster hasn't heard of. Hopefully at St Mirren the people with the new idea are fleshing it out via consultation and not just offering a yes/no proposal to others who could maybe have added greatly to the plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Not so. You come up with a idea first then start to flesh it out and produce a rough plan for implementing the idea as more people come on board and new ideas and viewpoints are introduced. Eventually you have a proposal when everyone concerned has had their say which is then modified, voted for or voted against. The SPL are not making it up as they go along. 7 people decided on a proposal then they tried to push that proposal to everyone else. Many , many stakeholders - other SPL clubs, SFL clubs, SFA, fans and media - had no say in the proposal and any new ideas and viewpoints are totally ignored. I run projects. I come up with ideas. I chat to trusted people to see obvious flaws or get new ideas (for and against). I then take these loose plans and bounce them off the people directly affected to get their viewpoint. I then modify the plan. I then take it to a wider audience to see what they think. Eventually when everyone has their say we put forward a proposal when everyone knows the background, options, fors and againsts, and alternatives. Then we vote when everyone has been consulted. If you don't take people with you when introducing change you are lost. Even if everyone doesn't get what they want they want to know what the possibilities are and have some input even if it is rejected for the final proposals or not voted for in the final proposals. Its called consultation. A word Neil Doncaster hasn't heard of. Hopefully at St Mirren the people with the new idea are fleshing it out via consultation and not just offering a yes/no proposal to others who could maybe have added greatly to the plan. Yes you come up with an idea and flesh it out, but how can anyone make a decision on whether to be a member or not until the plans are finalised as things can change wildly ? You might get an in principle agreement but until the final proposal is known who can say they are for or against it ? There doesn't seem to have been any consultation with the fans as the number of people on this thread looking for more information on the CIC indicates so it looks very much like it will be a yes/no proposal. The SPL have to a certain extent made it up as they go along but they call it incentives, one team night get an incentive of a better split of tv money another the incentive of change to the voting structure another the incentive of colt teams and another the incentive of being able to postpone their first two league games of the season and so on until they have the promise of the necessary votes for the change to 10 teams. To them no one else really matters as they have no vote on it, except for the fans who can support it and go to games or vote with their feet and stay away from the 10 team structure as I will and in that case I would not become a member of the CIC anyway whether I think it's a good idea or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Two million quid for %52 of St Mirren FC is rather a lot , 10 years ago shares were a fiver each meaning that £416,000 gave you %52 of the club , admittedly now St Mirren are in far better shape , but I do think the asking price is a bit high . Also I think those putting the bid together may find it a bit difficult to get grants to buy property / assets off a group of businessmen , which would allow the selling group to make a %300 profit over 12 years. Which may actually be where the problem lies , a club is only worth what people are prepared to pay , and so far the only parties interested want to pay with someone elses money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Two million quid for %52 of St Mirren FC is rather a lot , 10 years ago shares were a fiver each meaning that £416,000 gave you %52 of the club , admittedly now St Mirren are in far better shape , but I do think the asking price is a bit high . Also I think those putting the bid together may find it a bit difficult to get grants to buy property / assets off a group of businessmen , which would allow the selling group to make a %300 profit over 12 years. Which may actually be where the problem lies , a club is only worth what people are prepared to pay , and so far the only parties interested want to pay with someone elses money. The value of something is what people are prepared to buy it for. The BoD have already had offers in the region of £2M. They could have taken that money and damned us all. Instead they are exploring what they perceive to be the best option for the club and the supporters. If that doesn't come off then we will be back to looking at someone spending £2M to take ownership of the club. There will be no protection for the club whatsoever under such a deal and we will be at the mercy of the new owner. AFAIK there is no St Mirren supporter with both £2M and additional funds over and above that to invest in the club. We are right to be nervous about the unknown, but we should also have a little faith in the current board who are actually trying to do a great thing for us. Once it all unfolds (hopefully) a lot of the doubter who have thrown abuse at the current BoD will be feeling very silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Two million quid for %52 of St Mirren FC is rather a lot , 10 years ago shares were a fiver each meaning that £416,000 gave you %52 of the club , admittedly now St Mirren are in far better shape , but I do think the asking price is a bit high . Also I think those putting the bid together may find it a bit difficult to get grants to buy property / assets off a group of businessmen , which would allow the selling group to make a %300 profit over 12 years. Which may actually be where the problem lies , a club is only worth what people are prepared to pay , and so far the only parties interested want to pay with someone elses money. Was that 10 years ago when we were a first division club struggling to stay full time and with the bank wanting their millions we owed them back asap? 10 years later we are debt free, with a new stadium we own, a new training complex we have a long lease on, and have played the last 5 seasons in the SPL. Can't imagine why gven the change in circumstances the shares may be worth a lot more now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Sid, if they had offers in the region of 2 million this thread wouldn't be running..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Zo Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Sid, if they had offers in the region of 2 million this thread wouldn't be running..... My thoughts exactly. I am sure that any other offers made would have been quite some distance away from 2 million. It understandably takes a great deal of time for Richard atkinson and co to get this up and running along with the necessary approval from the powers that be. This is an interesting proposal and I am looking forward to hearing more of what the cic offers. Stay positive fellow buddies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Sid, if they had offers in the region of 2 million this thread wouldn't be running..... if, if, if....yer maw... There have been bids in the region of £2M that have been rejected. The rejection wasn't about the cash but about the business plan that accompanied them. The directors as they have always stated are looking for a business plan that will progress the club and protect it for the future. The more I consider the possibilities for St Mirren and the wider community that the CIC plan offers the bigger the chubby I get for it. The more I learn about Mr Atkinson, the more I think he might just be on the verge of a Saint-hood. The manner in which he has approached his attempts to deliver something quite remarkable is quite humbling. Instead of petulantly demanding information from Richard we should all be asking the man what we can do to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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