FTOF Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I am positive about the change because I have absolutely no way of stopping it happening and absolutely no way of knowing if it is going to be successful or not. Why START with a negative outlook before anything has actually happened ? Negativity is a disease which infects too many supporters of this club, it's like some people actually WANT things to fail so that they have something tangible to moan about. I agree. Maybe the board shouldn't have bothered trying to sell the ground and the club could have died a slow,horrible death over the past few years and all the current whinging wouldn't be happening. Who knows? Maybe it will happen anyway and all the board have done is extended the club's shelf life for a few years. As flawed as the CIC idea may be and even though I am far from convinced it will work, I'm willing to listen to what is said and then make a decision one way or another.It certainly seems a far more palatable and realistic option than a white knight with several million pounds to spend, investing in the club. It is with a wry smile that I read people posting that they're "stopping supporting the club" or "not attending games", because everything about the club is shit.These people obviously didn't follow the club in the mid nineties,because everything in the club from top to bottom actually was shit. I can understand people being disaffected by the general malaise that is pervading all football (particularly the SPL) at present and I can understand that finance could be a huge factor too in stopping attending games,but to decide now to follow that course of action,not based on either of the aforementioned reasons (when we've previously been in much worsesstates both on and off the pitch) seems like the actions of "drama queens" to me. I don't know,maybe people find it easier to forget just how bad it was in the nineties.I know I can't and on the occasions I feel things aren't going swimmingly with the club in its present guise, thinking back to those dark days makes events of late pale into insignificance in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Just thought I would contribute. Some interesting points. What is the alternative though ? The guys on the consortium who grouped their shares into the 52% majority shareholding and put it up for sale were the guys who decided that moving to a single owner was in the best interests of the club. They refused to sell to the next largest shareholder (who would then have had over 60% shareholding). By placing all 52% up for sale as one block they engineered the situation where there would be majority control of the club by A.N.Other. You couldn't have stopped that happening, I couldn't have stopped that happening, even the next largest shareholder couldn't stop that happening. So, once that decision was taken the club was going to be sold and control was going to be passed to the buyer, whether we liked it or not. The fact that the local Paisley community, local businesses and individual fans have the chance to BE that 52% is, for me anyway, better than it being one individual who rides into town a la Brealey or Massone and promises the world short term but delivers long term misery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 http://roversagendaforchange.org.uk/CIC_Article.htm Interesting link about an Football and CIC's .... Shamelessly nicked from feeshal' forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Of course I don't want things to fail! You can say I'm being negative, I'm merely asking what I feel are valid questions. The business case with the CIC apparently requires numerous businesses to come on board and, I assume, offer cash as well as services. What's in it for them? You have mentioned networking earlier, which is fair enough - I seem to remember there was some business club Saints ran in the early 2000s in an attempt to do likewise - but will that be enough to tempt businesses on board? I really, really would love this whole thing to work out, not just because seems it's the only way forward and it will happen. It's a new, different way of running things and if it works others will follow suit - and we'll reap the benefits of being the first to do it and taking the gamble. However, until I hear exactly how it works, exactly how businesses are going to be tempted to part with their cash to get on board and exactly why fans who already put hundreds of pounds into the club every year should put in even more just so they can have their say on a few issues, I'll remain sceptical. We are in a great position as a club, especially compared to other sides (some of whom I'd thought were fairly well run until recently), I just hope we don't f**k it up. Nah, nothing negative about your posts Stu. It is funny to watch posters try and pick holes in what little information they have or worse simply make things up and neurotically escalate made up nonsense into wild accusations and allegations - or to put it another way, top class sports journalism. I highly recommend that posters try and tone down the emotional rants and petulant accusations as your making a right bawz of yourself as you will find out in the not too distant future. Some of the stuff being posted is genuinely cringeworthy. As an example, Stu has posted a number of hysterical times concerns about the number of corporate orgs that will get involved. The question should have been a single post - How many corporate orgs have signed up for the CIC and if we are short by how many? I think someone posted earlier that they would be surprised if the club announced the sale going ahead if the club hadn't already secured the required number of corporate players or pretty damn near it - certainly enough to move forward. It is a question that will definitely be asked at the upcoming meetings and that there will certainly be an answer to. Wild speculation that no corporate investors will be interested is frankly ridiculous and will only make a bawz of the posters suggesting it - especially Stu. There are other equally ridiculous posts being made, full of misplaced passion that would be better exploited by careful consideration of where we are in the process and how best to get the information required. The BoD will be very keen to get the right information to us at these meetings. It would help both the BoD and more importantly us if the questions could be produced without the accusatory tone and more importantly not being repeated ad nauseum. Let's try and be focussed in the questions we are raising and keep it concise and free of emotion and general bile. That way we will have the best chance of getting the right information at the meetings. My example question follows: - I am very interested in the CIC and how it protects the clubs assets. How will this be applied in this specific instance? No emotion in the question, no petty accusations or suggestions of any agenda on my part. A fair and reasoned question that will encourage the dissemination of the information I would like to have in my possession. This is a massively important process. The club is moving towards community ownership. We need to understand the situation not just at a high level, but also the detail. If you turn up at these meetings and rant the way you are in your posts we will learn f"k aw. If we prepare our questions in a sane and structured manner we will make the meetings as productive as possible. I suggest we prepare for the meetings on this thread by dropping the usual flaming style and treat the current situation with the gravitas it deserves - ya fannies. So lets post questions without all the c"ntybollox and we might just get somewhere. Edited March 30, 2011 by St. Sid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Sensible questions Sid? Good idea, I'll throw in one of my concerns. Currently the 52% controlling interest is owned by 5 people, 4 of whom I guess are fully active, with Evelyn Purves not taking a day-to-day role. Essentially then, big policy decisions rest in the hands of these 4 directors. If the 52% passes to the CIC, which is made up of a large and varied group, there could be a real danger that it is difficult to reach concensus on big and important decisions. How do the main players behind the CIC plan to ensure decisions can be reached as smoothly and efficiently as possible? I can visualise 4 directors banging their heads together around the boardroom table before reaching concensus on an issue, I have more difficulty visualising the decision making process with the make-up of the new 52% majority shareholding. Edited March 30, 2011 by pozbaird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Good question Poz - are you in design like Colin & Justin? I have a question along similar lines: CICs by their nature dictate sounds financial management. With a shower of one flew over the greenhill road lunatics potentially taking over the asylum what safe guards are there to stop the dafties trying to sing Ronaldinho for a secong time and blowing the budget on gloryhunting madness al a Archibald, Victor & Co. Edited March 30, 2011 by St. Sid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 How will the 48% shareholding be represented within the structure of the board and within the decision making process? Will money coming in to the club and, therefore, being available to the CIC be used to pay off the funding package? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callum Gilhooley Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I think Fitzy is more the fan's man - I suspect the guy who worked for the TSB will have more to do with the funding side. God help us all if that happens - it'll be the long ball game all the way Yeah , coz the TSB are dead good with money ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 DON'T MISS THE CHICK & DICK INTERVIEW RAMORRA NIGHT ON RADIO SCOTLAND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintargyll Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 interesting . . . Both saints and r*ngers announce take overs at the same time after a long time up for sale . . Is it the end/start of a new financial year? . . . . Or is it just april fools day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLF Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Sensible questions Sid? Good idea, I'll throw in one of my concerns. Currently the 52% controlling interest is owned by 5 people, 4 of whom I guess are fully active, with Evelyn Purves not taking a day-to-day role. Essentially then, big policy decisions rest in the hands of these 4 directors. If the 52% passes to the CIC, which is made up of a large and varied group, there could be a real danger that it is difficult to reach concensus on big and important decisions. How do the main players behind the CIC plan to ensure decisions can be reached as smoothly and efficiently as possible? I can visualise 4 directors banging their heads together around the boardroom table before reaching concensus on an issue, I have more difficulty visualising the decision making process with the make-up of the new 52% majority shareholding. Poz - I would expect (I have no reason to believe this other than it's the only way I can see it working) that the CiC would elect members to act on their behalf - ie this would not be the same as MYFC where members could (supposedly) vote on every decision - it's my feeling Tony Fitzpatrick is there for the very reason he will probably be elected as 'president' of the CiC and become the CiCs representative on the board (perhaps with others from the CiC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I love the fact that for daring to question the potential pitfalls of a system that has never been tried before I'm being accused of being hysterical and negative. Brilliant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I love the fact that for daring to question the potential pitfalls of a system that has never been tried before I'm being accused of being hysterical and negative. Brilliant I'll call you a knickerwetter and you'll have the complete set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I love the fact that for daring to question the potential pitfalls of a system that has never been tried before I'm being accused of being hysterical and negative. Brilliant How do you know what the potential pitfalls are of the system before you actually know what the system entails ? The CIC will in the next 24 hours begin to take details of those who are interested in finding out how it all works. In due course (within the next 7 days I expect) all of those interested individuals or organisations will be sent documentation wich aims to explain exactly how it works and hopefully answering the most common questions. Then there will be a shareholders meeting(s) and public meeting(s) and probably some updates to the CIC website to answer any other questions that come up. I am in exactly the same boat as you Stu, I have questions as well, there are things I don't understand. I don't see the point however in throwing questions and concerns on to this public forum and expecting anyone to answer them with the correct response. I also can't see why any St.Mirren supporter wouldn't approach this with an open and positive mind from the off. Forget everything you have read and heard about this, wait until you are in possession of the facts, and then make up your own mind would be my advice on all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Stickroth Fanclub Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I also can't see why any St.Mirren supporter wouldn't approach this with an open and positive mind from the off. Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmurray24 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 To anyone that does not know..meetings have taken place with people from various St Mirren forums to sound out ideas and get some feedback about CiC. I do believe that some other ex players have also been sounded out..........................I am sure you can guess who was at these meetings..............just look at some of the information that has been posted. And no I am not saying that anything is wrong with that. It makes same to them .mmmmmmmmmmmm lets tell a few fans first to see what they think and sort any major bobos before we go public......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintnextlifetime Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Just as a matter of interest, which kind of business is Mr Atkinson involved in on a day-to-day basis . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Poz - I would expect (I have no reason to believe this other than it's the only way I can see it working) that the CiC would elect members to act on their behalf I'd pondered something along these lines earlier in the thread. This is quite a convoluted process, made all the more complex and challenging by the fact that you will be dealing with individual and corporate members who will be investing hugely variable amounts in the CiC. How then will proportionate representation be organised? I daresay this has been thought about, and there must be some form of reasonable and realistic solution, but I wouldn't want to be responsible for setting up and administering such a system. This is, in part, where my notion of individual members having a minor or nominal influence comes in. Direct influence becomes diluted as representatives are appointed etc. That's fair enough, and is how most democracies function. As I said yesterday, the alternative would be paralysis with no decisions being made. Nevertheless, I would imagine that prospective members of the CiC will be looking for a pretty clear sense of how any voting and decision making systems will operate. In terms of other questions, I'm a bit confused in terms of one key point. On the one hand, it seems to me that press interviews this week suggest that the financial package is in place (I'm paraphrasing, but I think what has been said was pretty much along these lines), yet Gilmour has stated that it is now down to supporters and local businesses etc. to step into breach and front up with the cash. Just how many business and community interests have already thrown their hats into the ring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Just as a matter of interest, which kind of business is Mr Atkinson involved in on a day-to-day basis . . Road haulage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I also can't see why any St.Mirren supporter wouldn't approach this with an open and positive mind from the off. Forget everything you have read and heard about this, wait until you are in possession of the facts, and then make up your own mind would be my advice on all of this. I could see your point if all the less than embracing posts on this thread were in the tone of those posted by animal and a few others at various points - ie: using less than temperate language, and casting thinly veiled aspersions in respect of the key players. As it is, I'm a little surprised that you are suggesting (or advising) that people shouldn't air their scepticism, doubts, and anxieties on what it, after all, an unofficial supporters forum. As far as I can tell, no-one has over-stepped the mark, and the vast majority of posts are measured and considered in their tone and content. Indeed, it seems reasonable to surmise from all but a very few of the posts that no-one is looking for this to fail. Being sceptical and concerned isn't being negative. Expecting open minds is fine if it wasn't for the fact that a great many people have a great deal invested - emotionally if not necessarily financially - in the future of this club. I also think it is possible to be open-minded, realtively positive, but sceptical and concerned, all at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Zo Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Great wee article in todays herald by that budding journo graeme macpherson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Great wee article in todays herald by that budding journo graeme macpherson. Linky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 In terms of other questions, I'm a bit confused in terms of one key point. On the one hand, it seems to me that press interviews this week suggest that the financial package is in place (I'm paraphrasing, but I think what has been said was pretty much along these lines), yet Gilmour has stated that it is now down to supporters and local businesses etc. to step into breach and front up with the cash. Just how many business and community interests have already thrown their hats into the ring? So effectively local businesses and fans are paying off the loan to have a say in the club. Personally I think this whole affair has been handled very badly. Give the club a call and everything will be explained, this in turn has posters dripping small bits of information onto the forum even though they have not grasped the whole idea themselves. I still see problems getting local businesses onboard but hey hoo we live and hope. The biggest question I have and keep getting shoot down for is. Who is loaning out the money some 2 million pounds with no grantees of it being paid back How long is the loan over. What if it can not be paid back. Surly it a fair enough question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Great wee article in todays herald by that budding journo graeme macpherson. Linky? Here to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Here to help. Good man. Ta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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