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The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours


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very sketchy on detail, interesting that the fans are at the end of the line considering the funding will not be forthcoming unless the agreed involvement of individuals quota is met. and although initially it will not post debt to SMFC it relies on as you would expect the monies generated by SMFC to exist.

it's an individual, community or corporate decision?

corporate - enhanced visibilty by involvement with community/supporters part owned football club (a degree of advertising, PR, Involvement and engagement with the supporters and community. also networking although limited unless a whole host of CIC's spring up i.e. other clubs/sports/organisations) powerful say in running of club and directing it's interests and policies (although they put NO money into club) as the document would seem to suggest these are NOT local businesses???

community - enhanced visibilty by involvement with corporate/supporters part owned football club (a degree of advertising, PR, involvement and engagement with corporate groups and supporters. increased networking opportuinities with other community groups, supporters etc, a say in running the club red light here! is it a good or bad thing that conceivably a church/community group that are capable of raising widespread sympathy could start to dictate club policy? and! they are already chosen!!! (and they don't put MONEY into the club)

individual - a bar subject to community group approval??? (picture not great as it looks like a hangar, but surely it will look better), the community groups will be eager to get you involved with their party, the corporate groups eager for you to avail yourself of their services. unless the 300 are united less of a say than the above (this group probably already put a lot of money into the club)

an idividual in the CIC is NOT! a shareholder in the club (you have no voting rights at AGM/EGM etc) there is access to a say in a vote however if you ask 300 st mirren fans what their gripping issue is.......... you get the picture

the existing other shareholders (48%) who have actually PUT money into the club are gauranteed 1 (10000 hours) board member only

so we already have board members co-opted on that havent put funding into the club, this will continue as the document reveals "The funding to repay any debt will come

from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC"

happy with that? as the money raised by CIC only goes to buy the 52% shares, not in any way does it go INTO the club

i could go on but before the RA luvvies jump me these are purely my thoughts and observations, and it has to be recognised since the 52% went up for sale this is the only proposal that has actually come to the table.

the choices? keep the status quo (gilmour etc have to sit on it) money is tight but we are better placed than most!

or

go down the CIC route?

no money into the club, relying on club to pay debts, will take time to stabilise, obvious uncertainty (will they be able to work together for the CLUB's interest) TWO boards (Club and 10000 members, unless the other 48% shareholders form a Third board?)

( hmmm personally with so many non local Companies/businesses and pre-selected community groups holding sway on what the club does or dosent do i worry)

my biggest problem is that the corporate and community members of CIC are already chosen. now CIC are looking for 300 individuals to "Tick the funding boxes" cart before the horse?

yes we can all get the violin and hankies oot and have a good ol greet, but if i can gave anyone, especially young people one bit of advice it would be this!

don't be a "Neg"

be positive about all the things in your life that mean something to you

the "Neg's" hate to be alone, they want others to join them and wallow in their misery and "aye right!" approach to any suggestion of optimism or hope

and optimism and hope is indeed what we all surely need each day, each minute as this life, this Earth does it's best to sweep you, you partner your kids your dug etc (work out which is your priority) away in a giant jobbie coloured Tsunami. never to be seen again

scottish football is leveling out, as the facts speak for themselves the OF are falling into ever decreasing circles, there's too much football on the telly, and what worth do you get out of a stupid money season ticket at the OF with 40-50,000 other punters when it's the might of ICT you have to overcome instead of Inter, Barca, Real Man U etc..... there's chances there!!!!

change isn't only inevitable, you can't stop it.

But you can ride it, embrace it or:

like the jobbie coloured Tsunami let it wash over you and coat your defiance with that brown smelly pong

Neg's my friend suck the life, blood and air out of any optimism or hope, thats what they need to survive and they don't mind pi**ing on anyone's parade to suck it up. there are hundred's of football clubs up and down the uk that arguably live a lesser existience than us. do you think for one moment they say "Why" or "Lets Chuck it" when they hit a couple of bumps in the road? They LOVE it....

the poor f**kers in places like indonesia get earthquakes and floods as often as we get bladdered, go see them talk to them, and if you express your sorrow and sympathy for their lot they just laugh at you, they think it's f**kin brilliant that the sun shining again never mind where's my ffing hoose blew aff tae noo!

Think you said it all yourself. :D

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We still do not know exactly how many corporate and community members have already signed up.

I mentioned this yesterday and would maintain that it is an significant omission in terms of the information provided thus far. In order for individuals and organisations who are considering signing up to have a good idea of how viable the initiaitive is, I think it would be helpful were we have a better idea of exaclty who has already bought into this. We don't need the specific identity of those organisations, but give us numbers, so we can begin to feel confident as to whether this is a genuine runner.

I can't think of any obvious reasons not to give this figure.

Edited by Drew
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Guest somner9

Think you said it all yourself. :D

i did and hear's the bit of my quote you "missed" out? now i know what being quoted out of context looks like

"so tomorrow night we might pick up three points, back to back against a very poor aberdeen side that put us out of a cup we should still be in. who knows whats in store?

frustration, humiliation..? or Higdon connects with his barrow load of chances and we stuff them!

POTTER heads in their goal from a corner?

Mair brings it down, controls it and rolls it out to midfield?

Mooy get taken aff the chippy run and starts?

now if i was a "Neg" i'd miss all that.... then what would i say???? WHY?

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My main question at the moment is why does it cost 2m to buy 52% of the club. Is a business with 800,000 pounds of debt (and we do still have this debt I understand?) and with no viable business model that suggests it can ever make a profit, worth almost 4 million pounds?

I'd happily invest in a community based ownership model if the money was going straight to the improvement of the club. I'm not so keen for it to be used to pay the present board of directors, and although I understand that they have every right to make their money back, I am unsure about this price.

Does anyone have any information on what similar sized clubs have been sold for?

Edited by Kemp
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My main question at the moment is why does it cost 2m to buy 52% of the club. Is a business with 800,000 pounds of debt (and we do still have this debt I understand?) and with no viable business model that suggests it can ever make a profit, worth almost 4 million pounds?

I'd happily invest in a community based ownership model if the money was going straight to the improvement of the club. I'm not so keen for it to be used to pay the present board of directors, and although I understand that they have every right to make their money back, I am unsure about this price.

Does anyone have any information on what similar sized clubs have been sold for?

75% of Ebbsfleet United went for around £1.2 million, they're in the English non-leagues and the owning group ended up with very little power as the 25% had veto rights over just about everything.

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Guest somner9

My main question at the moment is why does it cost 2m to buy 52% of the club. Is a business with 800,000 pounds of debt (and we do still have this debt I understand?) and with no viable business model that suggests it can ever make a profit, worth almost 4 million pounds?

I'd happily invest in a community based ownership model if the money was going straight to the improvement of the club. I'm not so keen for it to be used to pay the present board of directors, and although I understand that they have every right to make their money back, I am unsure about this price.

Does anyone have any information on what similar sized clubs have been sold for?

in answer to your debt query from the 10000 hours doc Quote: "The funding to repay any debt will come

from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC" i.e. fans, shareholders not CiC :o

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I've read the document and yes it does look good. With the risk of sounding sceptical I'm going to wait a while before deciding on whether to participate. I would love to do so and £10 a month is a very reasonable amount, however £120 extra a year for a student is a fair whack, so I'm going to wait until further info comes out. I'd love to participate, but need to know how much value for money it is for me personally (selfish I know) and how it benefits me and the club. Once I'm working I will look to buy into the CIC regardless, but in the short term, I might have to just back the team the old fashioned way by paying at the turnstyles. :)

£120 a year is a lot of money, but from my perspective, my part-time job prevents me from getting to a lot of games, so £120 a year is a lot less than the money I'm not spending on tickets at the moment.

I've felt this season that I'm contributing very little to the club, so this will be a good way to rectify that.

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My main question at the moment is why does it cost 2m to buy 52% of the club. Is a business with 800,000 pounds of debt (and we do still have this debt I understand?) and with no viable business model that suggests it can ever make a profit, worth almost 4 million pounds?

I'd happily invest in a community based ownership model if the money was going straight to the improvement of the club. I'm not so keen for it to be used to pay the present board of directors, and although I understand that they have every right to make their money back, I am unsure about this price.

Does anyone have any information on what similar sized clubs have been sold for?

As someone has already said, the consortium's argument will simply be that the value of their shares is what someone is willing to pay for them (or as much as someone is willing to apply for in grants and loans in order to pay for them).

My understanding is that the grants and soft loans will pay the lion's share of the £2M - a hell of a lot of money, but it they've managed to secure it, hey ho. You do have to wonder about the criteria applied for making such grants and loans available, but I suppose there is no harm in seeking to secure them. I wonder if all business people who take a punt on some venture or other could be so confident that they will recoup that investment from what is largely public funds, and to an amount that they have set as the asking price. No wonder Gilmour is in favour of this plan :rolleyes:

Edited by Drew
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We still do not know exactly how many corporate and community members have already signed up.

I mentioned this yesterday and would maintain that it is an significant omission in terms of the information provided thus far. In order for individuals and organisations who are considering signing up to have a good idea of how viable the initiaitive is, I think it would be helpful were we have a better idea of exaclty who has already bought into this. We don't need the specific identity of those organisations, but give us numbers, so we can begin to feel confident as to whether this is a genuine runner.

I can't think of any obvious reasons not to give this figure.

Without as you say giving the identity. 10000hours are happy for it to be known that 75% of the Corporate and Community members required have made a commitment should the whole deal continue to fruition, and have the suitable individual support added to the 10000hours CIC, and that there are a number of other businesses and community organisations actively engaged in considering the proposition.

10000hours CIC

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Without as you say giving the identity. 10000hours are happy for it to be known that 75% of the Corporate and Community members required have made a commitment should the whole deal continue to fruition, and have the suitable individual support added to the 10000hours CIC, and that there are a number of other businesses and community organisations actively engaged in considering the proposition.

10000hours CIC

That's good to know, and an impressive number of interested organisations at this stage in the process.

Many thanks for the response.

Drew

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in answer to your debt query from the 10000 hours doc Quote: "The funding to repay any debt will come

from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC" i.e. fans, shareholders not CiC :o

You missed out the next bit. "Trading can be increased by using new social enterprise businesses operated between 10000hours and a number of the community partners"

Perhaps we should have used a comma rather than a full stop to show that these two things are related.

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Guest somner9

You missed out the next bit. "Trading can be increased by using new social enterprise businesses operated between 10000hours and a number of the community partners"

Perhaps we should have used a comma rather than a full stop to show that these two things are related.

thank you for your response, to clarify are you saying the debt will be paid ONLY from NEW/Enhanced trading by SMFC or,

by existing and enhanced trading by SMFC?

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Genuine questions.

How much of a financial problem is it to the CIC if we drop below 300 members after a couple of years or so.

How much of a financial problem is it to the CIC if we fail to replace corporate members who pull out leaving us below the required 12?

Cheers. :)

We are not going to kid anyone on and say it is not a problem, less members = less money.

Obvioulsy this is one of the first questions that the funders ask themselves also.

However with the business plan presented to them and the dozens of meetings, tours and discussions they have satisfied themsleves so far that the risk of a drop off is low and they are prepared to put money into 10000hours CIC on that basis.

We hope that the public meetings will allow you some comfort on the matter when we can go into some more detail

10000hours CIC

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We are not going to kid anyone on and say it is not a problem, less members = less money.

Obvioulsy this is one of the first questions that the funders ask themselves also.

However with the business plan presented to them and the dozens of meetings, tours and discussions they have satisfied themsleves so far that the risk of a drop off is low and they are prepared to put money into 10000hours CIC on that basis.

We hope that the public meetings will allow you some comfort on the matter when we can go into some more detail

10000hours CIC

Thanks for the reply :wink:

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thank you for your response, to clarify are you saying the debt will be paid ONLY from NEW/Enhanced trading by SMFC or,

by existing and enhanced trading by SMFC?

If i understand your differentation correctly then the first one.

No money that the club currently earns doing what it does now will be used to pay any CIC debts.

Apart from trying to do such a thing being:

A: morally dubious

B: unfair on the money avaliable to be spent on the team

It is also probably not even possible under the sort of coorporate structure that a CIC owning 52% of shares in a Ltd Company permits

10000hours CIC

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My main question at the moment is why does it cost 2m to buy 52% of the club. Is a business with 800,000 pounds of debt (and we do still have this debt I understand?) and with no viable business model that suggests it can ever make a profit, worth almost 4 million pounds?

I'd happily invest in a community based ownership model if the money was going straight to the improvement of the club. I'm not so keen for it to be used to pay the present board of directors, and although I understand that they have every right to make their money back, I am unsure about this price.

Does anyone have any information on what similar sized clubs have been sold for?

Sorry to ask a question rather than answer one, but could you clarify why you think the club currently has £800,000 worth of debt?

10000hours CIC

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If i understand your differentation correctly then the first one.

No money that the club currently earns doing what it does now will be used to pay any CIC debts.

Apart from trying to do such a thing being:

A: morally dubious

B: unfair on the money avaliable to be spent on the team

It is also probably not even possible under the sort of coorporate structure that a CIC owning 52% of shares in a Ltd Company permits

10000hours CIC

thanks again for your response, it might be:

a -"morally dubious" but it is indeed what happens in takeover situations debts incurred as a result of the takeover, (see LFC & MUFC) go on to the company's balance sheet

b - and as you say "unfair on the money available to be spent on the team"

as with any business venture nothing is certain, everything has risk that must be managed. if the enhanced trading doesn't go as hoped, how do you plug the gap?

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I can only speak for myself Shull. St Mirren is a passion that's been with me for the more than 40 years. I would love nothing more than to see success as it's brings a joy and happiness that very few thinks can match. Remember 1987 or our European nights or simply having a good run in the league. If I can help the club move forward in some small way then I will.

Not everyone can afford 10 pounds a month but those who can I am sure in the most part will become members.

I don't always agree with your posts LS, but I agree with this one completely. Despite being one of the 48% "other" shareholders who will now have no power at all (I never really believed I had any in the first place) I will sign up to this. I live in the South of England now and get to very few games, however, I still remember the good times I've had being a Saints fan (and some f**king bad times, to be fair) and so I'm quite happy to put something back into the club so that the next generations of buddies have something to enjoy. A tenner a month is much less than I would spend on the buddies if I still lived in Paisley and went to most games.

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£120 a year is a lot of money, but from my perspective, my part-time job prevents me from getting to a lot of games, so £120 a year is a lot less than the money I'm not spending on tickets at the moment.

I've felt this season that I'm contributing very little to the club, so this will be a good way to rectify that.

120 quid a year is not a lot of money.

It is one pint of lager less a week. The fatties from the FFIT club should be on board already.

I'd be delighted to pay that to have a share and stake in the club. Where the complication for me lies, is the fact that the money is not going directly to St Mirren FC, and I am not receiving a share in St Mirren but in 10000 hours. And that the cash is being used simply to buy shares in the club.

c*ltic fans mind me a shower of a paranoid numpties, but they did invest heavily when they had a chance to buy shares and rebuild their club. I'd love to see the people of Paisley do something similar for St Mirren. I still have doubts over whether this is the best way to go about it though.

If we could buy the club for 500,000 quid, and invest another 1.5 million in the infrastructure for diversifying revenue streams and strengthening the youth development infrastructure, then it would be a lot easier to make my mind up. Back to my earlier question on what really is the correct asking price for St Mirren.

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Sorry to ask a question rather than answer one, but could you clarify why you think the club currently has £800,000 worth of debt?

10000hours CIC

Well you shouldn't answer a question with a question, but it is a figure I have seen quoted a number of times on the forums. I was asking in my original post if it is the case that the club is still in debt, are you able to state the amount of debt that the club is in?

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Guest somner9

two questions if Mr/Mrs/Miss 10000 hours comes back on

1 - given that in normal buy-out/takeover deals a shareholder must make an offer when its shareholding, including that of parties acting in concert (i.e. 10000 hours), reaches 30% of the target. if the proposal goes through and 10000 hours acquires 52% of the shareholding, (unless being a CIC it doesnt apply) how will 10000 hours fund the offer to buy the remaining shareholding? obviously the "other" 48% dont have to sell, but 10000 hours must have the funds in place to make the offer

2 - if the proposal goes through, 10000 hours is a success and the club generates profit, who will decide which of the Community groups get a share of said profit?

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