The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[David_Morrison]

I just don’t get that vibe from the CIC proposal. I think RA was encouragingly honest in that respect, but even if all goes to plan, don’t expect extra investment for at least 12-18 months. It all seems a very complicated way of maintaining the status quo.

I don't think a season is that long to wait for an increase. We have to be self-financing, there's no point in someone coming in and giving us a bigger wage budget for five years, leaving and then we can't afford to pay any of the players. This way we'll increase our own profits and get to adjust the budgets without having to worry about it. If we can increase the playing budget by 20% (and apparently we're paying £1.3mil a year at the moment) within a season or two then we're doing well.

I don't really see why we need the CIC to do this though, it seems like the current board could easily start utilising the stadium (although they'd have to pay Kibble) and get the same increases and save us all the troubles. They've done enough though and they clearly feel their time is up and want to move on, so it's only fair that we pick up the torch and help the team improve by using the community wisely.

[St. Sid]

Hi sorry wasn't at meeting don't stay in Paisley.

Might be a daft question but who will be on the board of St.Mirren FC Ltd if the current board are selling there shares. Would I be right in thinking that It can't be any of the Exec Com ie Chairman of the 10000hrs board would he not come from the exec com.

Confused and thanks if you can help clear this up for me

Combination of members from the elected board and at least one representative fron the shareholders.

[animal]

The executive Board will not be taking public money. They have spent a lot of time putting together a business plan that will attract social funding. (Hardly the same as a Renfrewshire c"ntcillor or MSP fiddling their expenses.) The funding will be used to deliver a genuine community club run by the community for the community with safeguards in place that will avoid the club getting into debt and most importantly protecting the assets of the club. That in itself would be more than enough for most fans; however, it will in fact provide the platform for the club to grow in its own right. And from my perspective very importantly grow its position in the hearts and minds of the community of Renfrewshire.

Attract Social funding = get free public money.

Last time I looked even an MSP could not easy fiddle upwards of £1,000,000

The CIC will be £1,000,000 in debt and its only asset is 52% of SMFC.

Dream on son. I'm off to bed !

[div]

Do you always answer a question with a question ?

I answered your previous two questions and even took the time to bring out my crayon and draw you a picture to help you understand the big words !

[St. Sid]

Attract Social funding = get free public money.

Last time I looked even an MSP could not easy fiddle upwards of £1,000,000

The CIC will be £1,000,000 in debt and its only asset is 52% of SMFC.

Dream on son. I'm off to bed !

goodnight John Boy...ya walton.

[Dirty Sanchez]

I don't have any problem with the revelation of the existence of the Executive Board tier because I think they are mainly there to lessen the chances of an arse being made of things. However, further to the debate here, I believe that Richard Atkinson actually acknowledged that the Executive Board hadn't been mentioned before tonight. A guy on the pitch side of the room, near the back, pointed out that he hadn't heard of the Executive Board until that moment, to which Richard replied, "No, you haven't".

There is also talk of why we haven't already been using some of these revenue generating ideas outside of the CiC. While this, of course, has merit, I have been convinced tonight that it is the involvement of the community that would be the main factor driving these types of initiatives, and allowing the whole thing to snowball. If we can get it to the point where it's snowballing we'll be in good shape, but that won't be easy.

It was quite startling to see how much the budget could be affected by, e.g. 500 more people on the average gate, which made me reflect on the long term effects of the life draining football served up in the latter days of the last guy.

The clincher, for me, is the assertion that the worst case scenario supposedly brings us back to the situation we are currently in, with the 52% up for sale.

It's a cautious, but hopeful, 'yes' from me.

[ds10]

What I can't get get my head around with this whole process is this.

When the current board took over the running of the club, it was about £2 million in debt. After all the extremely hard work to get the club out of debt, the directors then sell their shares for £2 million, which require to be purchased with a loan. Does that not get us back to square one? And negate all those years of hard work?

I do appreciate that it is not strictly speaking the club that is saddled with this debt. However I assume the CIC will be restricted in the amount of money it can invest in the club as it will be repaying this debt.

[Stuart Dickson]

I do think the 300 mark will be surpassed. I don’t find the individual membership attractions very exciting, nor well thought out. A lot of play on using the boozer, then a suggestion that “any other benefits could be discussed later”. I would have expected more at a meeting aimed partly at selling the idea to the supporters.

Fras, I wanted benefits and value for my tenner a month and I detailed suggestions in my e-mail to Mr Atkinson on Monday. He e-mailed me and then phoned me and it was explained that the benefits I was looking for - like car park access and discounted admission for Under 16's - were likely, but they were a decision that had to be left for the elected St Mirren Ltd Board as those benefits had to be costed out and there was potential that it could affect the playing budget. I don't think it's a lack of thought that's gone in to it, more the opposite. It is a leap of faith, but I suspect they will get 300 people willing to run with it for the first year and the benefits might become far more important in year 2 to maintain the membership levels beyond the initial wave of enthusiasm.

[Gordon Urquhart]

My very first contribution to this thread....

I thought Richard Atkinson delivered a 'tour de force' performance tonight. Warm, devoid of ego and a very honest assessment of where are are now and where we want to be.

Change is the key here. My fear is that only baby steps will be taken when what we really need is fundamental change not just to survive but to prosper.

The same can be said of Scottish football as a whole. Letter bombs, sectarian nonsense, institutional bigotry, playing and spectating in freezing Scottish winter conditions, too expensive to attend games, protectionist SPL, kids playing Playstation and not sports? Its not only the OF that needs to change but even our own young men who play for the club as reported today. It needs to change and we can only (try to) educate and make things better for the future.

As was said tonight, this may be the chance to make a radical difference to not just St Mirren but our wider community in Paisley and surrounding areas.

A bit like doing the video stuff we do, you can never please all of the people all of the time. I felt tonight it's not some Reg Brearley scenario we are in but a time to move things forward in our own here and now generation. The club was at Love Street for 115 years alone and will still be here long after we are all long gone.

'Animal' and the lady at the front doing all the talking tonight probably have good reasons for their stance and objections to all these changes. We are all Buddies and should stick together.

It is put up or shut up time. The best thing for all of us St Mirren fans to to do, is get involved.

I may regret this post in the morning, oh hang on, it is the morning now.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Gordon Urquhart

[northendsaint]

One of the executive board members is already on the existing board, and has already put his hand in his own pocket.

[/quo

I presume it must be someone who is not in the 52% consortium as they have stated they are tired and feel they have taken St mirren as far as they can.In saying that a share of 2 million would certainly give me more energy than a crate of red bull and my rejuvenated self would be chairman material for many years to come.

At the moment i am in for the first year to see how it all progresses.I dont mind throwing a tenner a month at it if it improves my club but am i just paying off interest on a debt which at the moment does not exist.We are being asked in effect to fund the present directors payoffs without the benefits of being a shareholder.(which there are none unless you hold a considerable number)

Loans money= directors payoff

fans money=payoff loans

I am all for the directors getting their rewards for many years of hard work but i work hard for my money too.Season tickets,Supporters club dues,Corporate,Annual Dinner,Strips all take a fair chunk out of my pocket money.I think you may have got the just that i am all for the Cic but less for the amount of debt that they will incur through the payoff.

[pozbaird]

My very first contribution to this thread....

I thought Richard Atkinson delivered a 'tour de force' performance tonight. Warm, devoid of ego and a very honest assessment of where are are now and where we want to be.

Change is the key here. My fear is that only baby steps will be taken when what we really need is fundamental change not just to survive but to prosper.

The same can be said of Scottish football as a whole. Letter bombs, sectarian nonsense, institutional bigotry, playing and spectating in freezing Scottish winter conditions, too expensive to attend games, protectionist SPL, kids playing Playstation and not sports? Its not only the OF that needs to change but even our own young men who play for the club as reported today. It needs to change and we can only (try to) educate and make things better for the future.

As was said tonight, this may be the chance to make a radical difference to not just St Mirren but our wider community in Paisley and surrounding areas.

A bit like doing the video stuff we do, you can never please all of the people all of the time. I felt tonight it's not some Reg Brearley scenario we are in but a time to move things forward in our own here and now generation. The club was at Love Street for 115 years alone and will still be here long after we are all long gone.

'Animal' and the lady at the front doing all the talking tonight probably have good reasons for their stance and objections to all these changes. We are all Buddies and should stick together.

It is put up or shut up time. The best thing for all of us St Mirren fans to to do, is get involved.

I may regret this post in the morning, oh hang on, it is the morning now.

Nothing to regret there. Have an early morning green dot.

[Stu]

There are levels in the presentation that could be classed as the "executive board", however nothing that clearly states it. It's quite reasonable to come to the view it's been hidden - I'd been told there was a executive board level and assumed it had been left off the flow chart.

Still doesn't seem to be an answer to how all this will lead to an increased footballing budget and allowing debts to be repaid - would have thought it would be one or the other.

A lot of the stuff the CIC are proposing/hoping for is good, however the club should already have been doing it without a CIC.

[FTOF]

Everyone who was there tonight knows, and everyone who joined in online knows.

I don't think it's a big secret or a big deal but I suppose if this is all you could find to pick fault with then the meeting must have been a success !

Correct.

Anyone who didn't know before must be a bit thick,lacking a tad in business acumen or have some sort of hidden agenda against the CiC.

What did they think the top tier in the diagram was? The fairy at the top of a Christmas tree?

There has been a lot of thought and hard work put into this scheme.That clinches it for me along with the fact that as a club we seriously need to move on and get out of our current off field stagnation to try and move forward.The CiC to me is a far more palatable option than an outsider coming in with several million pounds to invest in the club.Not only is this scenario unlikely,I don't believe our fanbase would get a chance to have any major say in running the club.

Of course there are some risks,but the straw clutching posts by those clearly opposed to this idea,now just looks like blatant attention seeking behaviour to me.

Edited April 22, 2011 by FTOF

[Wilbur]

Do we know of SMiSA have agreed to back the CIC proposal with financial commitment ?

[FTOF]

Do we know of SMiSA have agreed to back the CIC proposal with financial commitment ?

I missed the last meeting,but someone [Poz I think] mentioned that he thought they had.

I would have voted to back it if I'd been there.

[The Real Zippy]

Do we know of SMiSA have agreed to back the CIC proposal with financial commitment ?

Think from memory that the membership agreed to move forward and back RA and co with the proposal but nothing, I think, was mentioned about firm financial backing at that juncture. We were asked as members if we were interested in signing up and there was an overwhelming show of hands.

More to follow on that one I guess, Wilbur.

[div]

What I can't get get my head around with this whole process is this.

When the current board took over the running of the club, it was about £2 million in debt. After all the extremely hard work to get the club out of debt, the directors then sell their shares for £2 million, which require to be purchased with a loan. Does that not get us back to square one? And negate all those years of hard work?

I do appreciate that it is not strictly speaking the club that is saddled with this debt. However I assume the CIC will be restricted in the amount of money it can invest in the club as it will be repaying this debt.

The CIC needs to borrow £2m to buy the majority shareholding of the club.

A minimum of £800K of that money will be in the form of one-off grants that do not need to be repaid.

That leaves a maximum debt to the CIC of £1.2m.

The CIC will repay that money over a 10 year period, with interest re-payable each year estimated at worst case of £100K.

The membership money alone, if they get the minimum figures they need;

300 * £10 * 12 = £36K pa Individual Subs

24 * £500 = £12K pa Community Subs

12 * £10K = £120K pa Corporate Subs

Generates £168K revenue per annum.

So that on it's own covers the interest payments, and contributes almost £70K to the repayment pot.

I'd reckon that over 10 years the membership money alone would more or less cover the whole debt repayment. And that is before the CIC has even raised a single penny of extra revenue by virtue of the under utlised EXISTING assets of the football club.

If the membership all lose interest after a couple of years then clearly something has gone badly wrong, as these will be St.Mirren fans effectively turning their back on the club. In that absolute worst case scenario the CIC would simply sell the 52% majority shareholding to a private individual most likely, use that cash to settle it's debt and close it's doors leaving the football club with other new owner(s).

I don't really see much risk in all of that.

[Bud the Baker]

Of course there are some risks,but the straw clutching posts by those clearly opposed to this idea,now just looks like blatant attention seeking behaviour to me.

Yeah it's fairly obvious it's going to go through but even after reading through the transcripts of last nights meeting I'm still looking at the bleak end of the scenario - I see the club still in debt (albeit not to any bank) being run be a holding company which itself is in debt and is looking to repay that debt largely by tapping into the market that already supports the club financially.

Their big idea seems to be that they believe that they could (the words in red are from their brochure) increase the utilization of the function facilities, my view on that is that if it was so easy why is it not already being done, we have a full-time paid CEO so it's not as if we're relying exclusively on the BoD these days and it's all very well to say how much additional revenue 500 extra fans will generate but is there any reason to believe 500 extra fans will turn up?

In some ways I hope I'm wrong, and that everyone can point & laugh at me 5 years from now, anyway my final words on the matter - good luck to y'all!

[Dirty Sanchez]

Still doesn't seem to be an answer to how all this will lead to an increased footballing budget and allowing debts to be repaid - would have thought it would be one or the other.

Slide No.10 of the presentation dealt with this. The theory being that increased trading brought about by CiC involvement would give St Mirren additional income that would be separate from that of the CiC, e.g. via the existing bar.

[FTOF]

Yeah it's fairly obvious it's going to go through but even after reading through the transcripts of last nights meeting I'm still looking at the bleak end of the scenario - I see the club still in debt (albeit not to any bank) being run be a holding company which itself is in debt and is looking to repay that debt largely by tapping into the market that already supports the club financially.

Their big idea seems to be that they believe that they could (the words in red are from their brochure) increase the utilization of the function facilities, my view on that is that if it was so easy why is it not already being done, we have a full-time paid CEO so it's not as if we're relying exclusively on the BoD these days and it's all very well to say how much additional revenue 500 extra fans will generate but is there any reason to believe 500 extra fans will turn up?

In some ways I hope I'm wrong, and that everyone can point & laugh at me 5 years from now, anyway my final words on the matter - good luck to y'all!

I don't agree about the debt issue and that has been backed up by several individuals,but it does no harm for you to have an alternative view.

Yes,there are some "leaps of faith" as you correctly point out.However, for me I want to see the club getting a chance to move on and better itself.I've looked at who is involved in this project and they appear to be pretty experienced and IMO better business men than we currently have at the helm.As a club, with the facilities we currently have [and will have after the re-fit] we don't sell ourselves nearlly well enough.I think that this is the best way forward,so I'll be backing it.

I'm sure the doubters will be absolutely creaming themselves at the prospect of breaking their necks to post on here if it doesn't go well at any point.

[TsuMirren]

I'm still not seeing why people still cling to this belief the club is going to be in debt. The club is breaking even and there will be no change in how much direct income goes to the club. The CIC are holding the debt, there's an asset lock and any decision to put any debt against the club or redirect funds would...no matter how cynical you are...be controlled by the members of the CIC.

I've made suggestions to Richard of what the CIC could vote on and can see why they haven't released their ideas as it'll only get shot down as even more spin or misunderstood and sniped at.

I made brief comments about MYFC and Ebbsfleet during the meeting last night and have no issue answering questions as, from what I've seen, this venture will be what MYFC should have been. Fans, the community AND interested other football fans around the globe getting together to understand a football club then develop it. There was a question from Michelle along the lines of "where does the investment come from? I don't see the investment." - Yes, some of you will also have that view, but do you also understand how much a club costs or that investing brings it's own problems if it's isolated money (a lump sum) and isn't backed up with follow up cash. Investment is also very regularly actually a soft loan and we don't want that, yet that's potentially the demand hidden within the question/statement around lack of obvious investment.

[alanmurray24]

I do believe that the" Michelle" is in fact Michelle Evans from Real Radio.

http://www.realradio-scotland.co.uk/news-sport/meet-the-real-news-team-t8fi/michelle-evans/wvmsbq9f/

[steve_the_saint]

One of the people I was with last night said that basically they were slating CK and the board for not generating any income and basically saying they couldn't do their jobs right ( my friend knows that st. Johnstone don't in fact have any more staff than st. Mirren do, they just double up on job rolls) .

It did have a slight feeling of that, however there's quite clearly something not right and if the fact of the matter is that the current setup is just not good enough at generating income then I think we should embrace the whole cic philosophy.

RA said himself last night, the current board could have done this themselves, but he was the one with the ideas and he seems to have a better business brain than any of the current board.

It definitely seems to be a case of better than what we already have... !

[steve_the_saint]

I do believe that the" Michelle" is in fact Michelle Evans from Real Radio.

http://www.realradio-scotland.co.uk/news-sport/meet-the-real-news-team-t8fi/michelle-evans/wvmsbq9f/

She must have had her 'investigative journalist' head on last nite, she was like a dog with a bone ( no insult intended! )

Best quote of the night came from the guy sitting behind me, just before she was kindly asked to shut up ......he murmured under his breath..."f**k sake love, let us get on with the grown Ups presentation" ....canny beat a bit of sexism in football in this day and age lol!

She definitely didn't do herself justice though.

[pozbaird]

Did anyone watch the BBC 'Panorama' programme a few days ago? It was about the guy who 'bought' Notts County and claimed they were about to become the new 'Man City'. Sven came in as manager, Sol Campbell signed - they were going to take on the world, and the fans lapped it up. Fast-forward and Sven disappeared, I think Sol Campbell played one game, and a queue of normal businesses who dealt with Notts County, like the milk delivery company, the catering company and others, weren't getting paid. Turns out the whole thing was on the never-never, the shadowy businessman behind it had ripped-off countless other well-meaning businesses, and was leaving a tangled web of debt and deceit wherever he went. Notts County fans were left scratching their heads, and wondering what to do with that £45 'Sol Campbell' shirt.

That isn't happening to us. SG stopped it happening to us in the past. The CIC deal stops it happening now, and in the future. Is it perfect? I don't see how it can be. At the meeting last night, I reckon Richard Atkinson came over really, really well. I think Gordon Urquhart said it in another thread - came over as genuine, enthusiastic, humourous, informed. He explained why he's doing it. Explained where he came from and what he wants to do with his life, being in a fortunate position personally in business. To stand up there and simply say "I'm lucky, I landed on my feet by an act of birth, and fell into the family business - here's what I want to do with my life..." struck me as an act of extreme honesty. My bullshit meter registered zero with what he had to say and where him and his team are coming from. Many warm rounds of applause from the floor would indicate he struck a chord with many in attendance.

I still have questions though. Still have concerns and wonder how it will all pan out. However, I'm more than happy to get involved. Many of my questions relate to the mechanics of it all - as someone on the floor alluded to with the 'decison by committee' question. I want to get involved and try to make it work. It will surely fail if we don't. I'm more than happy with the prospective skills base on offer to make it stand more than a fighting chance of working. Personally, as a fan - I would be worried if the 'executive board' wouldn't be in place from the off. To my mind, the thought of them NOT being there would be akin to Stewart Gilmour seeing off Reg Brearley all those years ago, then having done so, the fanbase turn around and say "Cheers, now would you mind buggering off and letting us run things?".

I can see why any fan who reckons they have something to offer would think about standing for election to the CIC board. Frankly, I reckon it would be great to have that 'strata' of expertise above - the guys who made it all happen in the first place and have the contacts, experience.... the package. In the future, if they aren't providing good leadership from the top? If they aren't generating the increased use of the facilites? If they aren't the glue holding it all together? Time for a re-think. Then - not now.

I'm in. I'll give it a go. I'll do it enthusiastically and whole-heartedly too.

Edited April 22, 2011 by pozbaird