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The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours


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She must have had her 'investigative journalist' head on last nite, she was like a dog with a bone ( no insult intended! )

Best quote of the night came from the guy sitting behind me, just before she was kindly asked to shut up ......he murmured under his breath..."f**k sake love, let us get on with the grown Ups presentation" ....canny beat a bit of sexism in football in this day and age lol!

She definitely didn't do herself justice though.

Yes, I am really unsure why she was being like that last night.

Her initial question about being concerned about the loans and their relationship to the club was perfectly valid and I am sure is the biggest concern of everyone connected with the club.

Richard answered that point to her, she then asked it again, Jim Mullen answered it for her, and she then asked it a third time :blink:

That was when I think the room lost a bit of patience with her.

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The CIC needs to borrow £2m to buy the majority shareholding of the club.

A minimum of £800K of that money will be in the form of one-off grants that do not need to be repaid.

That leaves a maximum debt to the CIC of £1.2m.

The CIC will repay that money over a 10 year period, with interest re-payable each year estimated at worst case of £100K.

Has RA explained who the lenders of the £1.2m might be ? Are there loans already 'on tap' just waiting to be triggered once the CIC gets the go-ahead ? Judging by the estimated annual interest cost of £0.1m these would appear to be commercial loans rather than soft loans from a benefactor or a benevolent Council or whatever. In my experience commercial lenders will insist on guarantees and security in case things go tits-up - what assets will the CIC own that could be used for that purpose ? Apart from 52% of a football stadium I can't think of any. Has RA alluded to loan guarantees in his presentations ?

The CIC are holding the debt, there's an asset lock and any decision to put any debt against the club or redirect funds would...no matter how cynical you are...be controlled by the members of the CIC.

If this 'asset lock' is the answer to my question did RA explain who / what would act as guarantor for the commercial lenders.

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Personally, as a fan - I would be worried if the 'executive board' wouldn't be in place from the off. To my mind, the thought of them NOT being there would be akin to Stewart Gilmour seeing off Reg Brearley all those years ago, then having done so, the fanbase turn around and say "Cheers, now would you mind buggering off and letting us run things?".

It seems to me to be more like the executive board is there for the funding bodies benefit, so they have people accountable that are trustworthy to them, like a legal formality to allow is to gain access to the funding.

I doubt they'll actually have to veto any decisions made by the cic as I'm assuming the cic will have competent people on the members board that know how to balance the books anyway.

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Has RA explained who the lenders of the £1.2m might be ? Are there loans already 'on tap' just waiting to be triggered once the CIC gets the go-ahead ? Judging by the estimated annual interest cost of £0.1m these would appear to be commercial loans rather than soft loans from a benefactor or a benevolent Council or whatever. In my experience commercial lenders will insist on guarantees and security in case things go tits-up - what assets will the CIC own that could be used for that purpose ? Apart from 52% of a football stadium I can't think of any. Has RA alluded to loan guarantees in his presentations ?

If this 'asset lock' is the answer to my question did RA explain who / what would act as guarantor for the commercial lenders.

I don't think that any mention of guarantees on the loans been mentioned Wilbur and it is a good question. Hopefully one of the TTH guys will see it and respond.

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Guest somner9

promised myself i would leave it, but it's difficult to ignore 40 odd years of emotion.

if i understand some of the information made public last night it is this

: the club (via the CiC) will in fact add over £1m debt to be serviced

: there is an expectation that "additional" funds via CiC instigated avenues won't filter through for 12-18 months at the earliest

: we now know we have (executive) Board Number 3!!!

: the CiC wont be funded (grants/loans) unless the community involved i.e. Saints fans sign up as individual members. but those very people "The Community" were the last to know any detail about the proposal, some feel they still don't have sufficent detail, but the corporate and community members apparently know more?

my biggest worry and i can't leave it so call me what you want if that makes you feel manly. Is! obviously any business venture is a risk. on this one we have Three boards, corporate members, Community groups and individual members all involved in decision making at some level??? once a bit of pressure comes along their naturally going to defend their own interest first, how will a football club be run in that scenario (pressure), which happens to every club, every season.

and then what may or may not be understood if the club via the Cic gets into financial difficulty (not uncommon for football clubs, especially those adding to the debt) the CiC has to go into liquidation first before any new owner can take control of its affairs. the much trumpeted man on horse with £2m quid burning a hole in his pocket can't simply buy an asset locked entity

that means points deduction, relagation and possible oblivion. how the hell are all the "decision makers" going to deal with that? if you fall out with the community groups because they act or insist on something thats not in what the fans consider is in the best interests of the club, you can't simply sack or bar them, as the Grants/loans are conditional on their continued participation and benefit.

Question? How many people does it take to run a football club.... effectively

looks set that the numbers will be achieved, i wholeheartdly hope it is successful, but i worry my clubb will disappear under a sea of committee's, in fighting, vested interest and financial problems.......

how is that going to improve what happens on the pitch?

fell free to add the usual insult etc etc

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promised myself i would leave it, but it's difficult to ignore 40 odd years of emotion.

if i understand some of the information made public last night it is this

: the club (via the CiC) will in fact add over £1m debt to be serviced

: there is an expectation that "additional" funds via CiC instigated avenues won't filter through for 12-18 months at the earliest

: we now know we have (executive) Board Number 3!!!

: the CiC wont be funded (grants/loans) unless the community involved i.e. Saints fans sign up as individual members. but those very people "The Community" were the last to know any detail about the proposal, some feel they still don't have sufficent detail, but the corporate and community members apparently know more?

my biggest worry and i can't leave it so call me what you want if that makes you feel manly. Is! obviously any business venture is a risk. on this one we have Three boards, corporate members, Community groups and individual members all involved in decision making at some level??? once a bit of pressure comes along their naturally going to defend their own interest first, how will a football club be run in that scenario (pressure), which happens to every club, every season.

and then what may or may not be understood if the club via the Cic gets into financial difficulty (not uncommon for football clubs, especially those adding to the debt) the CiC has to go into liquidation first before any new owner can take control of its affairs. the much trumpeted man on horse with £2m quid burning a hole in his pocket can't simply buy an asset locked entity

that means points deduction, relagation and possible oblivion. how the hell are all the "decision makers" going to deal with that? if you fall out with the community groups because they act or insist on something thats not in what the fans consider is in the best interests of the club, you can't simply sack or bar them, as the Grants/loans are conditional on their continued participation and benefit.

Question? How many people does it take to run a football club.... effectively

looks set that the numbers will be achieved, i wholeheartdly hope it is successful, but i worry my clubb will disappear under a sea of committee's, in fighting, vested interest and financial problems.......

how is that going to improve what happens on the pitch?

fell free to add the usual insult etc etc

This is also my concern, far too many non St.Mirren or football minded people on board and more committees than we need who might not have the true interest of St.Mirren Football Club.

But my biggest fear is the St.Mirren supporters with the big egos who will put themselves forward for some of the positions available you just see how some react on this web site if you don’t agree with them what chance we have if they get into a position of power.

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I couldn't make the meeting last night but I feel I have a reasonable grasp on what is being proposed. There is one aspect I'm still not fully understanding though, namely how the playing budget will be increased. I appreciate that the loans will be paid of by CiC membership and increased usage of the clubs facilities so if the membership adds (I think it was noted a page or 2 back) 136k and then perhaps another 100k per annum from the bar and groups using hospitality etc would this all automatically have to go to servicing the 1-1.2 million in loans taken on until they were paid off? If so at those projected annual additional incomes we'd be looking at 4-5 years before there was an increase in player budgets, no?

I assume that if our gates increase then that money would be kept purely for the club but then we all know how fickle our support can be so there's no guarantee that'd we'd see a significant boost to the 2500-3000 hardcore even if were to be chasing the heady heights of 9th in the SPL :rolleyes: ...basically I'm just wondering if there is a filtering of this hoped additional income where say half can go to repaying the loans and half to the player budget and then in time when the debt goes obviously then we'd see it all going to the player budget?...I've pledged on the 10000 hours site and think this could be the way forward for our club but I just require a little more clarity before I part with any membership money.

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Slide No.10 of the presentation dealt with this. The theory being that increased trading brought about by CiC involvement would give St Mirren additional income that would be separate from that of the CiC, e.g. via the existing bar.

It would be handy if someone - preferably 10000hours - could make a list detailing exactly which organisation (the club or the CIC) the income generated will go to. From what you're saying it seems as if the current facilities will see money go to the club, but the new bar's profits to the CIC?

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looks set that the numbers will be achieved, i wholeheartdly hope it is successful, but i worry my clubb will disappear under a sea of committee's, in fighting, vested interest and financial problems.......

Explain to me how different that scenario is from most other professional football clubs in existence today.

You only have to look at the blue bigots to see that scenario unfolding.

We, as a club , have been extremely fortunate to have had St.Mirren supporters in charge of our club for the past 15 years or so.They no longer want to be in charge.

IMO, we've developed into a situation, since we built the new ground, where St.Mirren and the fans are in a cosy wee "comfort zone" .With the CiC plan unfolding, people, quite rightly, are worried about what happens when we exit our "comfort zone".

For me, any risks with the CiC are equivalent [although not of the same nature no doubt] to any risks that would appear if a "white knight" or a consortium [both unlikely scenarios] invested suitable funds into the club.

I think the main question is:

Do we [the fans] have the balls to take a chance and try and better our club or do we sit tight and stagnate, in the vain hope that someone will toddle along and make everything great, without any risk to the club?

IMO, the club in its present state can't move forward, so I'm willing to take that chance.

Edited by FTOF
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Guest somner9

I couldn't make the meeting last night but I feel I have a reasonable grasp on what is being proposed. There is one aspect I'm still not fully understanding though, namely how the playing budget will be increased. I appreciate that the loans will be paid of by CiC membership and increased usage of the clubs facilities so if the membership adds (I think it was noted a page or 2 back) 136k and then perhaps another 100k per annum from the bar and groups using hospitality etc would this all automatically have to go to servicing the 1-1.2 million in loans taken on until they were paid off? If so at those projected annual additional incomes we'd be looking at 4-5 years before there was an increase in player budgets, no?

I assume that if our gates increase then that money would be kept purely for the club but then we all know how fickle our support can be so there's no guarantee that'd we'd see a significant boost to the 2500-3000 hardcore even if were to be chasing the heady heights of 9th in the SPL :rolleyes: ...basically I'm just wondering if there is a filtering of this hoped additional income where say half can go to repaying the loans and half to the player budget and then in time when the debt goes obviously then we'd see it all going to the player budget?...I've pledged on the 10000 hours site and think this could be the way forward for our club but I just require a little more clarity before I part with any membership money.

something that concerns me as well. i see a good return for the community groups £500 use of facilities, Glasgow city Ladies Football club using Ralston and Kibble getting a bar!!! (thats interesting, they build it and it's theirs?), but where/when/how much goes to the club?

in fact if the proposal goes ahead what actually improves for the club??? not in two years time "Maybe"! but next season. what will Danny lennon, his staff and the players have to improve their chances next season? this strangely enough has been little mentioned but when the word "Bar" appeared!

jeez they've got us the average saints fans sized up by just mentioning the word "Bar"

Edited by somner9
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Div mentioned somewhere that if the worst case scenario transpired and the CIC went belly up, then the shareholding would most probably have to be sold off to cover the debts accrued. I thought the whole point of the CIC was to 'asset lock' the club so who would they propose selling to to ensure that situation remains? Or would this put the whole club of being in danger of being in the clutches of a Brealey or Calum Melville chancer-type, if the CIC did have to relinquish the shareholding?

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somner, the bar won't build itself for free so you'd assume that companies involved would get their money back somehow. That said, and this'll be brief as it's lunch time and I'm hungry, if a corporate or community member of the CIC wants to use a space then they will still pay for hire just as they would pay to have an ad board up etc.

I really don't see myself grabbed by just a bar, whilst the applause heard during last night also shows to me that isn't the case for others.

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Guest somner9

Explain to me how different that scenario is from most other professional football clubs in existence today.

You only have to look at the blue bigots to see that scenario unfolding.

We, as a club , have been extremely fortunate to have had St.Mirren supporters in charge of our club for the past 15 years or so.They no longer want to be in charge.

IMO, we've developed into a situation, since we built the new ground, where St.Mirren and the fans are in a cosy wee "comfort zone" .With the CiC plan unfolding, people, quite rightly, are worried about what happens when we exit our "comfort zone".

For me, any risks with the CiC are equivalent [although not of the same nature no doubt] to any risks that would appear if a "white knight" or a consortium [both unlikely scenarios] invested suitable funds into the club.

I think the main question is:

Do we [the fans] have the balls to take a chance and try and better our club or do we sit tight and stagnate, in the vain hope that someone will toddle along and make everything great, without any risk to the club?

IMO, the club in its present state can't move forward, so I'm willing to take that chance.

the scenario is different because other professional football clubs (i.e. businesses) aren't run by committee. and in amongst all the talk of this vastly top-heavy, unfootball focussed structure nothing indicates what will be better on the park next season. it seems that a sizeable amount of people have got caught up in the ideaology of it, without thinking or demanding to know NOW where does it add value to St Mirren FOOTBALL Club???

yes i know the board back it because no one else is going to pony up £2m for a unperforming spl football club, but imo what RA etc are suggesting (not promising) is jam tomorrow. but nothing concrete on how our football team will be better off

Edited by somner9
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Guest somner9

somner, the bar won't build itself for free so you'd assume that companies involved would get their money back somehow. That said, and this'll be brief as it's lunch time and I'm hungry, if a corporate or community member of the CIC wants to use a space then they will still pay for hire just as they would pay to have an ad board up etc.

I really don't see myself grabbed by just a bar, whilst the applause heard during last night also shows to me that isn't the case for others.

yes the bar won't be built for free. so are Kibble paying the for all fitting, equpment and labour? if not where is it coming from? the info availble seems to suggest it's Kibble footing the bill. now to me thats a further drip, drip of outside interests taking control of SMFC assets, again with NO concrete commitment to improve what happens on the park.

surely the desire by the fans is that this proposal will deliver the resource to improve the Football. not Kibble's own corporate lounge?

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The membership money alone, if they get the minimum figures they need;

300 * £10 * 12 = £36K pa Individual Subs

24 * £500 = £12K pa Community Subs

12 * £10K = £120K pa Corporate Subs

Generates £168K revenue per annum.

Within the business plan part of the the 10K would be paid to the club for the provision of the servces that are in the package so that their is clarity, otherwise you would be correct and their could be a conflict of interest.

10000hours CIC

Now I really didn't intend to post again on this thread but this is a clear example of the ambiguity in the information coming from supporters of the CIC, 10000hours clearly states that part of the Corporate Subscription of £10k p.a. will have to be paid to the club.

Secondly you have guys like Stuart Dickson :rolleyes: trying to reduce the net cost of membership of the CIC by lobbying for discounts in club goods and services for CIC members.

Finally the figures quoted last night for Turnover (£2.5M) and Wages (£1.3M) are way out of line with what they've been in the last two years

2009/10 Turnover £3.875M & Wages £2.955M

2008/09 Turnover £3.546M & Wages £2.734M

Now in terms of wages we might not be comparing apples with apples if the £1.3M refers only to the player budget but I'll be surprised if the figure for Turnover was correct, was it a slip of the tongue or the typist?

Edited by Bud the Baker
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the scenario is different because other professional football clubs (i.e. businesses) aren't run by committee. and in amongst all the talk of this vastly top-heavy, unfootball focussed structure nothing indicates what will be better on the park next season. it seems that a sizeable amount of people have got caught up in the ideaology of it, without thinking or demanding to know NOW where does it add value to St Mirren FOOTBALL Club???

yes i know the board back it because no one else is going to pony up £2m for a unperforming spl football club, but imo what RA etc are suggesting (not promising) is jam tomorrow. but nothing concrete on how our football team will be better off

And other types of investment would?

Are you happy for the club to stagnate in it's current state?

Or are you willing to wait for someone else to invest,with no risk to the club, even though this is a highly unlikely scenario?

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Now in terms of wages we might not be comparing apples with apples if the £1.3M refers only to the player budget but I'll be surprised if the figure for Turnover was correct, was it a slip of the tongue or the typist?

Probably the latter so apologies.

To put the it into context, at that time Jim Mullen was comparing the management structure of Kibble, a £20m social enterprise, with the one that would run St.Mirren, a much smaller enterprise in comparison even with an accurate turnover of £3.5m.

Of course Kibble doesn't have the hearts and minds of several thousand supporters to deal with so it's not strictly speaking comparing like with like, but he didn't see any problem with the structure that was being proposed.

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Guest somner9

And other types of investment would?

Are you happy for the club to stagnate in it's current state?

Or are you willing to wait for someone else to invest,with no risk to the club, even though this is a highly unlikely scenario?

measure twice, cut once

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Was at meeting last night and I am now more confident in the CIC, however after you take everything in you find that you have more and more questions. A few points I have got

1. RA said last night that the CiC Executive would control budget and "significant contracts" is this contracts for players ie in like Tevez the CiC would own the player.????

2. Money for fitting out bar will come from Kibble, ok get that bit...... money from profits go to CiC, get that bit ...... but I cant get what do the "Kibble" get out of it?

2A. Is money for fit out of bar coming from the loans/grants that we are getting?

3. We were told by RA last night that CiC members would not become a Shareholder in St Mirren, we would only be a member of a CiC. So what do you get for your £10 a month for life. A 5/356 (as of 12.47) chance to be on the board, the use of a bar.....................am I missing something....

Dont get me wrong I am confident that this is the way forward, just left this morning with a few more questions

SORRY I was called away on a phone call and now see that some questions have now been replied too. Apologies

Edited by alanmurray24
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Guest somner9

Somner, where has anyone every stated that the bar will "belong" to Kibble Works? Why do you persist it making things up to suit your agenda? Also, please don't go away in a huff again, it just makes you look immature.

re the bar - that'll be last nights meeting where RA made that comment, check out the Q & A info

and your last comment......

if you need to post little slights and insults fair enough it's your call

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Guest somner9

it is the least important issue for me, but perhaps it shines a light on the detail that the potential individual members don't have. that is does anyone actually belive that Kibble are going to build and fit out a bar for nothing?

so either they get paid for the equipment and work

they get a split of profit to pay back these costs

or they have a vested interest in developing that facility at OUR stadium

the bar is one example, but it throws a smokescreen round the lack of real detail

cost - debt - repayment - added value

the stuff on the park matters to me!

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That debacle last night was a waste of two hours of my life. David Winnie's ex in daft wumin overkill, the permadrunk Charlie Cairoli lookalike ex barman from the St Mirren club spouting nonsense about £3000 and DJ Duffin thinking he's a financial wizard. Played into the hands of the shysters, distracting from their scam.

Aye, but apart from daft women, alcoholic clowns, misguided accountancy experts (should have put in 10000 hours of practice), and shysters scamming the assembled throng.... it was quite a good night's entertainment.

Edited by pozbaird
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It would be handy if someone - preferably 10000hours - could make a list detailing exactly which organisation (the club or the CIC) the income generated will go to. From what you're saying it seems as if the current facilities will see money go to the club, but the new bar's profits to the CIC?

That's not my understanding at all.

I'm sure someone from 10000 Hours will be able to confirm or correct me if I'm wrong but it seemed fairly clear to me last night that any additional income generated by use of the club's assets i.e bar sales or venue costs for parties etc will go to the football club to use as it sees fit. Maybe the profits from the new bar will go towards the cost of setting it up until that's paid off though? Presumably with one of our partners, Kibble building it, it will be much cheaper than it would be otherwise anyway.

The CIC's income will be the membership fees for individuals, businesses and community organisations. That will service the debt until such times as it is paid off then the CIC will have a decision to make about whether it continues to charge a membership fee and what that fee is used for. Bear in mind that would be up to the CIC members to decide ie us and if we don't like it we can just cancel our membership.

I understand all the concerns about the mechanics of this and about decision making being fudged by committees etc and that aspect does worry me too, but how else can you run a community owned football club?

Meanwhile the football club continues to trade as now, with a balanced budget, although hopefully a bigger budget than now. Where exactly is the financial risk to St Mirren Football Club in all this? I just can't see it.

At the moment the club is treading water and if no one buys it we are surely just killing time until the inevitable relegation. Yes we would survive but things are unlikely to ever get much better on the playing side.

If we wait for a private buyer (could be a long wait) he would not be able to tap into the soft loans and grants the CIC can access, nor benefit from involving community organisations in the same way the CIC can, and would surely use credit to purchase the club, credit which he would then transfer on to the club once in place anyway.

However if the CIC buys it, the club has no debt to service and can use any additional revenue generated solely on the playing staff and we will have at least 24 community organisations on board that will all generate some aditional revenue for the club.

It's a no-brainer for me and after years of being depressed at the lack of investment and ambition at the club, I am genuinely excited at the prospects for the future. If we can make this work we will be increasing our player budget whilst our rivals all around will be struggling to maintain theres and at the same time servicing debt that we don't have. Gone will be the days of seeing the likes of Falkirk (ok bad example at the moment) and Motherwell nipping in to sign any player we show an interest in because they can offer bigger salaries. In the long run we would have a real opportunity of being a regular Top 6 club and bringing European football back to Paisley. That's a massive upside with the downside being that we end up back where we are now, which in my mind equates to no risk at all.

Edited by bingboy
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