bingboy Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 It was my impression that perhaps just a percentage of the extra revenue generated? Could be but I don't see why it needs to be. Is this the type of thing that would be decided by the members 10000 hours? If so my vote is that all additional revenue goes into the playing side asap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Alternatively, you can have a rather clear statement from the document released last week: "The upfront funding of the share purchase will come from organisations that specically lend to CIC type ventures. The funding to repay any debt will come from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC - an area all recognise as under-utilised, especially since the stadium move. Trading can be increased by using new social enterprise businesses operated between 10000hours and a number of the community partners. The second area is the membership scheme of the CIC." I don't see anything confusing there - it clearly states the increased trading will be used to pay off the debt. The same increased trading we are later told in the document will be used to increase the player budget. How can this be possible? Edit: I'll even throw in two of div's tweets from last night to back it up further: "Richard explaining that the club has many under-utilised assets. 10000Hours intends to use these assets to generate extra revenue. " "This extra revenue will be used to help repay the debt. " Apologies for any Confusion. Don't know if this will help if we put the statment a different way, but here goes. Any revenue that the club earns at the total expense of the club the club keeps. e.g the club runs the coorporate hospitalty bar during a party, the club gets the revenue Any revenue that the CIC earns at the total expense of the CIC the CIC keeps e.g the CIC runs the CIC members bar (that it pays to fit out, staff, etc etc) the CIC gets the revenue Any revenue the the CIC or the Club earn by working together the CIC and the Club Share (in the appropraite proportions) e.g 10000hours organises a conference on Social Enterprise and Sport. It charges for the tickets and pays a percentage to the club for the provision of the facilty use etc etc. I hope this clears the issue up. No one is trying to divert money from the club to the CIC, not only would that be illegal (as it is two separate companies) and immoral (becuase it is against the concept of a CIC) it would be stupid (because the accounts are transparent and all the members would soon see what is going on) 10000hours CIC Edited April 22, 2011 by 10000hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Apologies for any Confusion. Don't know if this will help if we put the statment a different way, but here goes. Any revenue that the club earns at the total expense of the club the club keeps. e.g the club runs the coorporate hospitalty bar during a party, the club gets the revenue Any revenue that the CIC earns at the total expense of the CIC the CIC keeps e.g the CIC runs the CIC members bar (that it pays to fit out, staff, etc etc) the CIC gets the revenue Any revenue the the CIC or the Club earn by working together the CIC and the Club Share (in the appropraite proportions) e.g 10000hours organises a conference on Social Enterprise and Sport. It charges for the tickets and pays a percentage to the club for the provision of the facilty use etc etc. I hope this clears the issue up. No one is trying to divert money from the club to the CIC, not only would that be illegal (as it is two separate companies) and immoral (becuase it is against the concept of a CIC) it would be stupid (because the accounts are transparent and all the members would soon see what is going on) 10000hours CIC Well that clears it up slightly - however, many people seem to be getting excited about the prospect of a bar raising money for the club. That doesn't seem to be the case at all, instead it raises money to help pay off the loan. Out of interest, if 10000hours held so many conferences/events over the year that it made more than was required to pay of loans, running costs etc, what happens to the profit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Well that clears it up slightly - however, many people seem to be getting excited about the prospect of a bar raising money for the club. That doesn't seem to be the case at all, instead it raises money to help pay off the loan. Rememeber that there will now be two bars within the club one owned and operated by the club and one fitted out and operated by the CIC. It is worth noting that the CIC will pay rent after a time to the club for the space that the bar is in thus making the club money too Out of interest, if 10000hours held so many conferences/events over the year that it made more than was required to pay of loans, running costs etc, what happens to the profit? Excellent Question i have been waiting for someone to ask The CIC elected board would be able to decide what to do with the surplus. We would expect this would mean that the CIC members board would look to put something back into the Club within the rules of a CIC Does that now clear it up fully? 10000hours Edited April 22, 2011 by 10000hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingboy Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Apologies for any Confusion. Don't know if this will help if we put the statment a different way, but here goes. Any revenue that the club earns at the total expense of the club the club keeps. e.g the club runs the coorporate hospitalty bar during a party, the club gets the revenue Any revenue that the CIC earns at the total expense of the CIC the CIC keeps e.g the CIC runs the CIC members bar (that it pays to fit out, staff, etc etc) the CIC gets the revenue Any revenue the the CIC or the Club earn by working together the CIC and the Club Share (in the appropraite proportions) e.g 10000hours organises a conference on Social Enterprise and Sport. It charges for the tickets and pays a percentage to the club for the provision of the facilty use etc etc. I hope this clears the issue up. No one is trying to divert money from the club to the CIC, not only would that be illegal (as it is two separate companies) and immoral (becuase it is against the concept of a CIC) it would be stupid (because the accounts are transparent and all the members would soon see what is going on) 10000hours CIC I am a bit disappointed that the football club doesn't get the revenue from a bar inside the stadium. Surely at some point though the CIC members could vote to overturn this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Well that clears it up slightly - however, many people seem to be getting excited about the prospect of a bar raising money for the club. That doesn't seem to be the case at all, instead it raises money to help pay off the loan. As a member of the CIC though Stu, I know that the 2 million required to buy out the consortium needs addressed. Certainly the loan element of it particularly. I can see the clear differences between the CIC and the club - but at the same time I see that the more monies raised - by both - the more it benefits everyone. I go to corporate a couple of times a year, I went to the Aberdeen curry night. Quite happy that CK gets my £40 for the Aberdeen game and, with the other 129 people there that night, it goes into the club coffers. Equally, if I am a member of 10000hours CIC, I am aware that the void area in the main stand will be kitted out as a members and guests bar purely because the CIC came into existence. I am perfectly happy to use that facility knowing the money spent in it will be used to reduce the borrowing required to get the whole thing going in the first place. The sooner the borrowing is repaid, the better. Would I be happier if the consortium weren't looking for 2 million? Sure - but that's what the value has been set at for the controlling interest and possibly reflects on the many years of service and time / trouble they put in when no-one else stepped up to the plate. If it's true that Gordon Scott's offers were around the £1m mark, and this is £2m. I'd be happier if they settled for £1.5m with the balance going into the club. Easy for me to sit here and say that. I'm not the one who has spent 10 years or so trying to run the football club. Personally I look at this whole thing more in the longer term. It cannot and will not produce instant results overnight. The only thing that would produce instant results is if some sort of Brookes Mileson came breezing in and threw millions straight at it. I view the CIC plan as having more substance than that - a whole lot more substance. It might be more of a slow-burn process, but it is sustainable, and looks to me like a far more appealing prospect than either the existing BOD plodding along, self-confessed finished, done, and all out of ideas, or the consortium selling out to a well dodgy geezer who 'does a Dundee' on us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 I am a bit disappointed that the football club doesn't get the revenue from a bar inside the stadium. Surely at some point though the CIC members could vote to overturn this? Fair enough. However the club will not have spent any money putting it there, but will firstly derive a rental for the CIC after a period, and secondly get to use the facility for its own events. e.g at Christmas time the club can now have bigger parties becuase it will have a separte area it can use for the dancing, the same is true of weddings which are limited becuiase of the lack of a large dance floor which the club will now have. So the CIC enabling the development of the void will give the club plenty of other opportunties to make money........and if it operates the bar dueing these events it does get the money! 10000hours CIC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck1 Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Rememeber that there will now be two bars within the club one owned and operated by the club and one fitted out and operated by the CIC. It is worth noting that the CIC will pay rent after a time to the club for the space that the bar is in thus making the club money too Excellent Question i have been waiting for someone to ask The CIC elected board would be able to decide what to do with the surplus. We would expect this would mean that the CIC members board would look to put something back into the Club within the rules of a CIC Does that now clear it up fully? 10000hours 10000hours why wait for the question to be asked if you think it is a important question why not explain it from the outset to stop any confusion ! Also if the CIC get the correct amount of members 300, 24, 12 is this not what the CIC have budgeted for to pay the debt and any more over this would be profit and could be put back into St.Mirren Football Club If then the support see benefits of the whole issue and concept in the CIC then surely that would lead to more people willing to join and get involved and this would lead to increased revenue that could then be used to enhance the debt repayment. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 10000hours why wait for the question to be asked if you think it is a important question why not explain it from the outset to stop any confusion ! Also if the CIC get the correct amount of members 300, 24, 12 is this not what the CIC have budgeted for to pay the debt and any more over this would be profit and could be put back into St.Mirren Football Club If then the support see benefits of the whole issue and concept in the CIC then surely that would lead to more people willing to join and get involved and this would lead to increased revenue that could then be used to enhance the debt repayment. Just a thought. Fair comment. Yes it is the case that if the CIC is oversubscibed and raises more money more quickly this can be used to quicken the debt repayment. 10000hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 The way I see it there are 3 options: 1/ The clubs continues as it is. 2/ Someone comes along and buys the 52% shares. Possibly a Brearley or Melvile but even if it is someone with the best intersts of the club at heart they would be answerable to the majority shareholder - themselves, so there'd be nothing to stop them running up debt against the club to fund the takeover or bring improve the playing budget. 3/ We go with the CIC. One of my main concerns with the CIC model would be supporters running the club when things aren't going well on the park. Would they be tempted to push the budget a little further to get through it ? Possibly. Would they be tempted to miss payments for tax or to suppliers because cash flow was tight ? Possibly. That's where I think the executive board are a very welcome addition to stop this type of thing and have a workable, sensible budget that will be adhered to. And who would the club and CIC boards be answerable to - the members including the fans who sign up for it. I'm generally for this, I still have some questions and concerns but mainly I'm waiting to see what happens with league reconstruction because i think what is being proposed is more likely to drive more fans away from the game and mean a drop in income as the standard of the game drops further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 There are levels in the presentation that could be classed as the "executive board", however nothing that clearly states it. It's quite reasonable to come to the view it's been hidden - I'd been told there was a executive board level and assumed it had been left off the flow chart. Still doesn't seem to be an answer to how all this will lead to an increased footballing budget and allowing debts to be repaid - would have thought it would be one or the other. A lot of the stuff the CIC are proposing/hoping for is good, however the club should already have been doing it without a CIC. I haven't seen Div's twitter content; however the questions you have just asked were dealt with in some detail at the event last night. Drag yer fat @rse up the road for next weeks meeting - as a journalist I doubt you will manage to make an even bigger @rse of yourself than Michell Evans managed though - sure you'll have a go though. The club in its current form cannot attract the Social Investment available. The only way for the club to invest i some of the initiatives that the CIC have in mind would be traditional debt or to take the money from the playing budget. So in short the club currently cannot do what the CIC can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck1 Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Why do your posts always lead to insults and assume that you know it all, you are the type of people that us St.Mirren supporters worry about as I mentioned in another post the supporter with the ego the will end up on a board or committee......god help us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck1 Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 I haven't seen Div's twitter content; however the questions you have just asked were dealt with in some detail at the event last night. Drag yer fat @rse up the road for next weeks meeting - as a journalist I doubt you will manage to make an even bigger @rse of yourself than Michell Evans managed though - sure you'll have a go though. The club in its current form cannot attract the Social Investment available. The only way for the club to invest i some of the initiatives that the CIC have in mind would be traditional debt or to take the money from the playing budget. So in short the club currently cannot do what the CIC can do. Why do your posts always lead to insults and assume that you know it all, you are the type of people that us St.Mirren supporters worry about as I mentioned in another post the supporter with the ego the will end up on a board or committee......god help us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 yes the bar won't be built for free. so are Kibble paying the for all fitting, equpment and labour? if not where is it coming from? the info availble seems to suggest it's Kibble footing the bill. now to me thats a further drip, drip of outside interests taking control of SMFC assets, again with NO concrete commitment to improve what happens on the park. surely the desire by the fans is that this proposal will deliver the resource to improve the Football. not Kibble's own corporate lounge? I'm sure 10000 hours will correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, Kibble will provide some of the (possibly cut price) labour to fit out the bar. For this they will be paid by the CIC. The CIC will get the money to pay this and the rest of the cost of the bar, architect's fees, and the materials etc. from the pool of loans and grants it hopes to obtain from the taxpayer. I think (difficult to hear sometimes last night) that the cost was "a six figure sum". i wish I could get the taxpayer to build me a bar for free ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 I'm sure 10000 hours will correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, Kibble will provide some of the (possibly cut price) labour to fit out the bar. For this they will be paid by the CIC. The CIC will get the money to pay this and the rest of the cost of the bar, architect's fees, and the materials etc. from the pool of loans and grants it hopes to obtain from the taxpayer. I think (difficult to hear sometimes last night) that the cost was "a six figure sum". i wish I could get the taxpayer to build me a bar for free ! We are happy to correct you. You are wrong. 10000hours CIC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 We are happy to correct you. You are wrong. 10000hours CIC Well OK please explain how it will be financed. I am pretty sure that's what was said last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Well OK please explain how it will be financed. I am pretty sure that's what was said last night. The detail is subject to some confidentiallity, which will be revealed and made transparent upon the completion of the deal What was said last night, was that Kibble would be involved, they will play a major role. FYI - the process is very far along to the extent that the building warrant is in place for this development to CIC off asap. 10000hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irate-Pirate Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 I didn't go to the meeting last night. One of the main selling points for an individual member seems to be having the ability to vote for certain important issues. For example, electing someone onto the board. You could say that the current shareholders have this power at the moment. In reality everyone just sits there and raises their hand en masse at the appropriate time - not really that exciting. Do the corporate members who shell out £10K have just the one vote like individual members or is it "pro rata" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 I didn't go to the meeting last night. One of the main selling points for an individual member seems to be having the ability to vote for certain important issues. For example, electing someone onto the board. You could say that the current shareholders have this power at the moment. In reality everyone just sits there and raises their hand en masse at the appropriate time - not really that exciting. Do the corporate members who shell out £10K have just the one vote like individual members or is it "pro rata" ? They do just have one vote but along with the community members what they are voting for is a second 5 people for the members board. If you download the presentation from the 10000hours site you will see the corporate stucture. 10000hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Why do your posts always lead to insults and assume that you know it all, you are the type of people that us St.Mirren supporters worry about as I mentioned in another post the supporter with the ego the will end up on a board or committee......god help us When I'm the President you'll be getting barred. It's an unofficial football forum nobcheese. Me and Stu have been exchanging insults for many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 The detail is subject to some confidentiallity, which will be revealed and made transparent upon the completion of the deal What was said last night, was that Kibble would be involved, they will play a major role. FYI - the process is very far along to the extent that the building warrant is in place for this development to CIC off asap. 10000hours Hmmmmmm. More secrets. Given that Kibble is funded by public money and the CIC has no money until its gets its hands on the various member's money I guess I will have to wait and see. Maybe a brewer / drink supplier will chip in something. Not sure if they are still willing to do that sort of thing. A building warrant is not a difficult thing to obtain. A six figure sum of money might be a bit harder ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingboy Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Hmmmmmm. More secrets. Given that Kibble is funded by public money and the CIC has no money until its gets its hands on the various member's money I guess I will have to wait and see. Maybe a brewer / drink supplier will chip in something. Not sure if they are still willing to do that sort of thing. A building warrant is not a difficult thing to obtain. A six figure sum of money might be a bit harder ! Animal I think it's right that people ask difficult questions but you aren't content with that, instead hinting at hidden agendas and doubting the ability of the CIC to deliver what they say they will, in this case a bar inside the stadium. I think it's unrealistic to expect details of a commercial deal to be revealed until it's all been signed off. If you're not prepared to become a member of the CIC that's fine, it's your prerogative. But if you're not prepared to accept the word of a man who successfully runs a multi-million pound business that he can deliver something as simple as a new bar inside the stadium then I don't think you're going to believe anything that 10000 hours tell you. If you don't want the CIC buyover to succeed tell us why - what are your fears for the club if this goes through? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraser G Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Apologies for any Confusion. Don't know if this will help if we put the statment a different way, but here goes. Any revenue that the club earns at the total expense of the club the club keeps. e.g the club runs the coorporate hospitalty bar during a party, the club gets the revenue Any revenue that the CIC earns at the total expense of the CIC the CIC keeps e.g the CIC runs the CIC members bar (that it pays to fit out, staff, etc etc) the CIC gets the revenue Any revenue the the CIC or the Club earn by working together the CIC and the Club Share (in the appropraite proportions) e.g 10000hours organises a conference on Social Enterprise and Sport. It charges for the tickets and pays a percentage to the club for the provision of the facilty use etc etc. I hope this clears the issue up. No one is trying to divert money from the club to the CIC, not only would that be illegal (as it is two separate companies) and immoral (becuase it is against the concept of a CIC) it would be stupid (because the accounts are transparent and all the members would soon see what is going on) 10000hours CIC Will there not be a conflict of interests for the directors in terms of who they are organising an "event" for? As the directors will also be CIC people and their priority will be to pay off the loan, they will therefore surely be doing this at the expense of organising such events for the club? Also, apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but what say will the other 48% of shareholders have in the running of the club? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 I think at this stage it's inevitable that the CIC will go ahead and if it does I'd hate to see it fail so I'll be pledging too, however can I just make sure I've got the jist of a few points that I think I've worked out from the last few posts by 10000hrs.... 1- Kibble will be fitting out the extra space (costing them a six-figure sum). For this they will have some sort of agreement with the CIC for priority(?) use of the space. Once the funds paid = amount of time used or total debt paid off the ownership of the extra space will revert into the club ownership side of things where upon the CIC will pay rental to the club for continued use of the space. 2-the main benefit to the club, and best chance of increasing player budget in the short term is through increased ticket sales/strip sales or rental of the hospitality space. The CIC will help with this, but not through any direct monies, but by increasing the football clubs indentity within the community (more people may be encouraged to come along on a saturday if they 'identify' with the club in some way, through clubs held at the ground, etc). Can I just ask what happens once the debt is paid in full? What happens to the monies gathered by the CIC - is it a self-perpetuating 'community investment' where the monies will be used to increase community involvement or will the profits then be transferred to the club? Is this something CIC members will vote on at the time (and given that a significant number of board members will be community based I worry this is unlikely but suppose there is a possibilty of a 50/50 split). .....and does the fact that the new space will be owned by the CIC mean that if I'm booking a function at SMP mean I have to specify who I want to run the bar? Will private functions booked be automatically run by the club and 'community' group meetings (I think a church has been mentioned elsewhere) be run by the CIC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Well OK please explain how it will be financed. I am pretty sure that's what was said last night. It is staggering, verging on supernatural, the amount of times "The loans and grants of £2 million will be used to finance the purchase of the 52% majority shareholding in Saint Mirren." can be typed and absolutely missed by people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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