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The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours


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I'm fairly sure that was something we were told CIC members could vote on, now we hear it's going to be left up to the football club's board? What exactly do the CIC members get to vote on?

The three tier model is not that complicated; however as it was only really introduced into the public consciousness last week, perhaps we should be forming our questions around it rather than unhelpfully speculating about it as a negative.

Tier one for me is about ensuring the lunatics don't run riot with the asylum budget. They will balance the books and decide the budget for the season. If tier two decides to do anything wildly extravagent like sack the manager - they prove they have the finances available to support the sacking and the hiring of the replacement. Like the assets locks I believe this is a BIG positive!

Tier two will define the strategy for running the club - e.g. discounts for OAPs, etc.

Tier three, the SMFC Ltd BoD will be responsible for implementing the strategy defined by Tier two - negotiating contracts for mopping up the extra pish in the toilets from the increase in OAPs, etc.

Said it before, rather than worrying up an concern and hitting the panic button....ruminate on it, formulate the concern into a reasoned (and if you can polite) question and submit it to the CIC Q&A thread or be sneaky and throw it out there at the public meeting depending on your personal agenda. :)

Edited by St. Sid
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I'm fairly sure that was something we were told CIC members could vote on, now we hear it's going to be left up to the football club's board? What exactly do the CIC members get to vote on?

Erm we vote to elect the board members who then make the decision.

I dare say that they may decide to refer some things to the membership but surely you don't expect every single decision to go to a majority vote of the CIC members? That would be a nightmare and it would take forever to get anything done.

Edited by bingboy
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Once the debt is paid off the CIC doesn't need the £10 per month. It will be up to the CIC members to vote on whether fees are still required and if so, how much of that should go to St Mirren FC.

Perosnally I wouldn't be happy at that stage to pay a fee unless it was all going to St Mirren FC and would withdraw my membership.

This question was answered at the meeting the other night. I know not everyone can make the meeting this Thursday but I would urge anyone with any misgivings abouth the CIC takeover to go along and ask the questions that are bothering them. I truly believe that Ritchard Atkinson et al have nothing to hide and will do their best to put your mind at rest.

Thank you Bingboy for a nice, uncomplicated and straight forward answer.

I feel as if every time someone asks a question which doesn't appear to support the CIC then there's a bizarre raft of 'how can you question this' comments. It's nice to see someone take time to actually answer the question.

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I'm fairly sure that was something we were told CIC members could vote on, now we hear it's going to be left up to the football club's board? What exactly do the CIC members get to vote on?

Major decisions and any deemed worthy will go to the members, obviously that's not all sorted yet as...eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody...it'll be a community and it'll be for the community to decide.

I'd use words like minutiae, but you're a journalist and I'd hate to have to explain it again and again and again. :)

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Thank you Bingboy for a nice, uncomplicated and straight forward answer.

I feel as if every time someone asks a question which doesn't appear to support the CIC then there's a bizarre raft of 'how can you question this' comments. It's nice to see someone take time to actually answer the question.

Eddy,

I don't want to appear to be talking down to you, but that question was answered about 60 pages ago at least.

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Eddy,

I don't want to appear to be talking down to you, but that question was answered about 60 pages ago at least.

Pardon me for not trawling through 82 pages of what was pretty boring and repetitive the first time.

You can have my last red dot tonight, for 'appearing not to talk down to me' whilst 'appearing' to be a patronising tit. :P

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Pardon me for not trawling through 82 pages of what was pretty boring and repetitive the first time.

You can have my last red dot tonight, for 'appearing not to talk down to me' whilst 'appearing' to be a patronising tit. :P

I may as well make it worth it then...

"Gaaaaaaaaaah, I have a point to make. Uber gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I've not had an answe...oh wait, a thread that might have the answers. f**k it, I can't be bothered!!! Spoon feed me, watch for the dummy though! UBER GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!"

:)

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Bizarre post Fras. The only person you have to run the CIC model past is a stranger you met at a kids play centre party. Perhaps Yul Brenner was a cowboy clown there to entertain the other children. animal was of course part of the puppet show. :lol:

Maybe it was "bizarre" in the sense that it was after back-to-back MOTD and the Football league Show, plus a couple of nippy sweeties. I wan't at my sharpest. If I was to write it now, I would include much more detail. Count yourselves lucky.

Nonetheless, (and taking Poz's post as not being patronising), I have been listening/reading to viewpoints from all corners on this one - its the only sensible option. Bearing in mind that we are talking about a takeover of a football club, then I would have thought it a bit remiss to run all the pros and cons put forward thus far, past a completely neutral individual, who happens to be a sports daft, succesful invesment banker. Takeovers etc.....that what the guy is successful at, whether we like that type of occupation or not.

I've seen Sid's posts, plus Div, Poz & crew; I've seen Animal's points of view; I've read Yul Bryner's tales from the secure unit; I spoke to a journo I know; and most importantly I've gone through the 10,000 Hours docs, plus Div's coverage of the meeting. Put all of this together, and run it past a guy with more expertise in this field than virtaully anyone posting on here, and absolutely no emotional connection (good/bad) to SMFC ? Seems like a good idea to me.

Due to the nature of the criticism any "dissenters" get on here (and your post above is just a wee example), where there seems to be a lacking in any structured debate - something that is being picked up by a growing number of people - I have no inclination to go into my reasons why I have changed my position, but.... in a Bannatyne-stylee (as opposed to a Justin Fashanu stylee).....I'm out.

Its a personal decision, and not one that will affect the buy-out going through in all likelihood. Just hope it all works out well in the end.

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plus Div, Poz & crew

Are we a crew now?

I've actually been involved in a scheme very much like this and, to be honest, really can't see why a Saint Mirren fan wouldn't want to be at least supportive. Obviously people might not want to be able to afford it, but that's pretty much the only reason to not get involved.

I've read your post on page 80 and it doesn't really say that much, to me there's nothing there as to why you'd change your opinion. The consortium could be losing patience, but could they not also just want to get their money having taken out loans, mortgages or invested some life savings. Is it also not possible they were as quick to assume an investor would come along as some have been on this thread?

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Due to the nature of the criticism any "dissenters" get on here (and your post above is just a wee example), where there seems to be a lacking in any structured debate - something that is being picked up by a growing number of people - I have no inclination to go into my reasons why I have changed my position, but.... in a Bannatyne-stylee (as opposed to a Justin Fashanu stylee).....I'm out.

I would quite like to hear what made you change your mind. Overall I imagine that the scheme is probably a good thing for the club, although I do have some significant reservations.

There are a number of people who appear to have been blinded the romantic notion of the club being run by the fans and the community.

However I think it's in the best interests of everybody including the club for a proper debate to take place, as one way or another this is an extremely important time for the club.

This is something that posters should take into account when aiming personal abuse at others, however naive or disagreeable their posts might be.

Also may be an idea if the mods are particularly careful that a proper debate is allowed to take place and that EVERYBODY is allowed to air there views freely.

After all I'm sure most of us have the clubs best interests at heart and if all the issues can be discussed and resolved the it will be to the club's benefit.

Edited by ds10
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Erm we vote to elect the board members who then make the decision.

I dare say that they may decide to refer some things to the membership but surely you don't expect every single decision to go to a majority vote of the CIC members? That would be a nightmare and it would take forever to get anything done.

So we just elect folk on to a board who can then do whatever they want?

A big part of this is that it will supposedly give fans a much bigger say in the running of the club, which it now seems won't be the case. And any decisions that are made can then be ignored by the executive board, who can still chose to do whatever they want.

Edited by Stu
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So we just elect folk on to a board who can then do whatever they want?

A big part of this is that it will supposedly give fans a much bigger say in the running of the club, which it now seems won't be the case. And any decisions that are made can then be ignored by the executive board, who can still chose to do whatever they want.

It may well be that any major decisions ie, " the sexy stuff" as RA said, would be voted on by the cic. This would be decided by the cic, ie, if the cic wanted their board representatives to put any such decision to the cic, then they would ensure it happens.....otherwise the elected board member wouldn't last very long in their post.

And as RA also said at the meeting, most of the club board meetings are boring - the last one he was at was about the lift maintenance contract, the cic members wouldn't be interested in that! So to an extent, we would need to trust our elected board to make the correct decisions for our club.

Anyone saying the executive board can effectively do what they want are jumping the gun a bit. At the meeting RA said they would be there to ensure the cic doesn't go mental with the piggybank and for any major contracts ( I took that as being the development of facilities, ie, the plot of land across the road or improvements to the bar etc......not, for example, deciding to reduce the ticket prices for crucial end of season games).

The existence of this executive board is probably a requirement of the terms of the funding (so the funders have someone they can trust - most of the people on the board appear to have extensive experience of community projects) and as long as the cic is run properly, they will probably play no major part.

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So we just elect folk on to a board who can then do whatever they want?

A big part of this is that it will supposedly give fans a much bigger say in the running of the club, which it now seems won't be the case. And any decisions that are made can then be ignored by the executive board, who can still chose to do whatever they want.

I don't quite know what you expect in terms of having a say in running the club. A public meeting of 400+ members every week instead of a board meeting to vote on every little thing? Most members wouldn't turn up for a start.

We elect the board members and if they don't deliver the wishes of the members they can be voted off. I don't see anything wrong with that.

What say do we have in running the club now? Zero so I don't see how you can say that the oportunity to elect board members doesn't give us a much bigger say in running the club.

At the risk of repeating myself again, the Executive Board is there to ensure the football club has a balanced budget. Sound corporate governance if you ask me, or would you rather go back to the days of living outwith our means and to hell with the consequences?

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I don't quite know what you expect in terms of having a say in running the club. A public meeting of 400+ members every week instead of a board meeting to vote on every little thing? Most members wouldn't turn up for a start.

We elect the board members and if they don't deliver the wishes of the members they can be voted off. I don't see anything wrong with that.

It doesn't need to be a public meeting, though delivering it online does need a certain level of maturity about the members. Every little thing is overkill, but there could be enough to keep things interesting...I'd assume there would be as we look to develop the entire club and the CIC in order to drive things forward.

It does have to be said that Stu has completely missed the whole point of the executive board.

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I don't quite know what you expect in terms of having a say in running the club. A public meeting of 400+ members every week instead of a board meeting to vote on every little thing? Most members wouldn't turn up for a start.

We elect the board members and if they don't deliver the wishes of the members they can be voted off. I don't see anything wrong with that.

What say do we have in running the club now? Zero so I don't see how you can say that the oportunity to elect board members doesn't give us a much bigger say in running the club.

At the risk of repeating myself again, the Executive Board is there to ensure the football club has a balanced budget. Sound corporate governance if you ask me, or would you rather go back to the days of living outwith our means and to hell with the consequences?

A meeting every week would be stupid, however one every month or couple of months to discuss things and put them to the vote is not asking a lot. Voting for a board of people once a year is not, in my view, having a real say in the running of the club.

The executive board may be there to make sure nothing silly happens, but at the end of the day there is nothing stopping them ignoring the decisions made by the board of the CIC or of St Mirren Football Club and doing their own thing.

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Ok so you have done your 'homework'. Do tell us what untold disaster awaits if this goes through. And also tell us what viable alternative you have to Richard's proposal.

Until you can provide positive answers, then I'd pipe down if I were you.

You want him to pipe down , or what?

The hysteria coming from the zealously pro-CIC community is now developing into implied threats. this is turning into the richard atkinson personality cult and the members need to be referred to by a collective name that suits their hysteria. You will henceforth be known as Dickophiles.

This is meant to be a debate, Yul posted some contentious points in a humorous style and animal has contiuned to make serious and important points. I dont see a lot of what they ask being answered by 10000 hours people, just a playground swarm of Dickophiles rounding on anyone that questions the validity of the whole thing. Your all so desperate to protect your "close to the action" status that you are happy for the potential prospect of the club being ruined to not be questioned.

In theory, the CIC seems a reasonable idea to me, however the vehicle that they want to use does not seem intended for the running of a multi-million pound enterprise and the grants, loans etc are not yet certain to materialise.

10000 hours, i have 2 questions.

1 if anyone signs on as a member, falls on hard times and defaults on their £120 pa commitment, will you then call on credit management companies to take action and recover the funds owed?

2 If the model fails to deliver the necessary income required to pay off the loans, then what does "going back to the funders" really mean? Would that be a request for more voluntary contributions or would the members be legally liable for a portion of the debt?

Come to think of it, there is a third question.

3 If public funds are sought then these will be in the gift of governmental and non-governmental organisations, which are usually headed up by former politicians, civil-servants etc. What happens when we default on the payments ( i think this is almost certain to happen)? Am i right in thinking that the creditors can then take ownership of the shares and then try to sell them off to recoup their outlay?

Answers, please.

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A meeting every week would be stupid, however one every month or couple of months to discuss things and put them to the vote is not asking a lot. Voting for a board of people once a year is not, in my view, having a real say in the running of the club.

The executive board may be there to make sure nothing silly happens, but at the end of the day there is nothing stopping them ignoring the decisions made by the board of the CIC or of St Mirren Football Club and doing their own thing.

Stu, at the Athletics Club my role on the committee was that of Parents Representative. I suppose in many ways it would be similar to this. If the Parents had an issue with anything at the club they had my phone number, they could e-mail me, they could see me at the trackside on training nights and I'd be at any race meetings my son was running at. I would imagine the role of anyone elected to the board by a membership would be much the same. Members would be able to contact their representatives and raise issues, or make suggestions without any difficulty at all. Ofcourse if you felt your representative wasn't listening to you or working towards your agenda you'd be able to vote for an alternative at the next election - that's if anyone stands against them for the same role.

It's another reason why I would see being an elected board member as being a real pain in the arse though. Imagine going to a match on a Saturday and having paid admission for you and your kids, expecting a nice afternoon of watching football when instead you get what always happens where one member feels that's an appropriate time to bend your ear for 90 minutes. Listen to him and you know you are getting the same thing every time you go to the football from now on, ignore him and it'll be all over these forums that you are a knob that doesn't listen to members, who's in the pocket of the Corporate Member and you've become nothing but a "plastic" or "token" representative.

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Are we a crew now?

I've actually been involved in a scheme very much like this and, to be honest, really can't see why a Saint Mirren fan wouldn't want to be at least supportive. Obviously people might not want to be able to afford it, but that's pretty much the only reason to not get involved.

I've read your post on page 80 and it doesn't really say that much, to me there's nothing there as to why you'd change your opinion. The consortium could be losing patience, but could they not also just want to get their money having taken out loans, mortgages or invested some life savings. Is it also not possible they were as quick to assume an investor would come along as some have been on this thread?

No your a cult-your all Dickophiles

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[quote name='spirit of 77'

3 If public funds are sought then these will be in the gift of governmental and non-governmental organisations, which are usually headed up by former politicians, civil-servants etc. What happens when we default on the payments ( i think this is almost certain to happen)? Am i right in thinking that the creditors can then take ownership of the shares and then try to sell them off to recoup their outlay?

Answers, please.

That's exactly what will happen as an ultimate consequence of the cic collapsing but this will be after trying to find viable ways of paying off the loan - possibly increasing the members fees is one avenue but will more likely involve extending the loan period.

So why is it almost certain to fail?

I would say its almost certain to succeed.

It will only fail if the majority want it to fail, ie, stop being a member, whereas if the majority want it to succeed ( u can't tell me u don't WANT it to succeed?) Then it will prosper and grow - success breeds success.

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You want him to pipe down , or what?

The hysteria coming from the zealously pro-CIC community is now developing into implied threats. this is turning into the richard atkinson personality cult and the members need to be referred to by a collective name that suits their hysteria. You will henceforth be known as Dickophiles.

This is meant to be a debate, Yul posted some contentious points in a humorous style and animal has contiuned to make serious and important points. I dont see a lot of what they ask being answered by 10000 hours people, just a playground swarm of Dickophiles rounding on anyone that questions the validity of the whole thing. Your all so desperate to protect your "close to the action" status that you are happy for the potential prospect of the club being ruined to not be questioned.

In theory, the CIC seems a reasonable idea to me, however the vehicle that they want to use does not seem intended for the running of a multi-million pound enterprise and the grants, loans etc are not yet certain to materialise.

10000 hours, i have 2 questions.

1 if anyone signs on as a member, falls on hard times and defaults on their £120 pa commitment, will you then call on credit management companies to take action and recover the funds owed?

2 If the model fails to deliver the necessary income required to pay off the loans, then what does "going back to the funders" really mean? Would that be a request for more voluntary contributions or would the members be legally liable for a portion of the debt?

Come to think of it, there is a third question.

3 If public funds are sought then these will be in the gift of governmental and non-governmental organisations, which are usually headed up by former politicians, civil-servants etc. What happens when we default on the payments ( i think this is almost certain to happen)? Am i right in thinking that the creditors can then take ownership of the shares and then try to sell them off to recoup their outlay?

Answers, please.

Who is 'implying' threats. Nothing of the sort.

Like I said before, all I heard from the likes of Animal was hot air. As per usual, guys like him don't appear to have a credible alternative to what is being proposed.

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There is one thing that is getting ignored, the CIC will not have the furtherance of SMFC as it's sole aim. It couldnt attract community funding if that was the case. It has as it's aim the improvement of whatever community is defined in it's articles.

Put simply, not all of the money generated by it will be given to the club, some will go to Kibble and other causes/projects. Also, any money the CIC makes will be in competition with the club. Lets say i approach the cic and ask to hire out conference facilites. They take my money, tell the club to organise the needful in terms of venue, staffing and catering. Once the external bills and staffing (unless Kibble kids are used for free) are paid (i'm assuming they'll be paid) then there will be a residual profit. The CIC will then decide how much of my employer's cash will be used for the furtherance of SMFC and how much will go the gay muslim richard madely appreciation society of inchinnan.

or maybe i could just go direct to campbell kennedy and make the booking with SMFC copping for all of the profit. Assuming that the CIC executive board havent ordered CK to refer all requests to their remit.

Can anyone tell me how SMFC will make MORE money in the above scenario? Will the CIC magically uncover additional streams of business that a full-time, experienced and seemingly very able commercial director & staff cannot find purely by dint of their status?

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Who is 'implying' threats. Nothing of the sort.

Like I said before, all I heard from the likes of Animal was hot air. As per usual, guys like him don't appear to have a credible alternative to what is being proposed.

"I'd pipe down if i were you" implies a consequence. I'm always careful not to print anything on here that i wouldnt be happy to back up in person, it'd be nice if the dickophiles thought before following the school bullies as they pursue the kid that doesnt want to conform to their norms.

Secondly, he (or she) doesnt need to present any alternatives. That is for the current board to do, the valid role of fans is to air their views and have them debated, that is what a forum is meant to be about, not a vehicle for ramming the views of a supposed cognoscenti down the throats of the populace.

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There is one thing that is getting ignored, the CIC will not have the furtherance of SMFC as it's sole aim. It couldnt attract community funding if that was the case. It has as it's aim the improvement of whatever community is defined in it's articles.

Put simply, not all of the money generated by it will be given to the club, some will go to Kibble and other causes/projects. Also, any money the CIC makes will be in competition with the club. Lets say i approach the cic and ask to hire out conference facilites. They take my money, tell the club to organise the needful in terms of venue, staffing and catering. Once the external bills and staffing (unless Kibble kids are used for free) are paid (i'm assuming they'll be paid) then there will be a residual profit. The CIC will then decide how much of my employer's cash will be used for the furtherance of SMFC and how much will go the gay muslim richard madely appreciation society of inchinnan.

or maybe i could just go direct to campbell kennedy and make the booking with SMFC copping for all of the profit. Assuming that the CIC executive board havent ordered CK to refer all requests to their remit.

Can anyone tell me how SMFC will make MORE money in the above scenario? Will the CIC magically uncover additional streams of business that a full-time, experienced and seemingly very able commercial director & staff cannot find purely by dint of their status?

I'm guessing you didn't go to the meeting as it was explained then.

They won't make more money in the above scenario. The above scenario can happen now, it didn't need the cic to make it happen.

The club will make more money AS A RESULT of the cic being in place. The example used was the church using the facilities for their meetings. Births, weddings and deaths are all associated with churches. People also have parties for such occasions. Why not have the party where the church group meets every week? The club won't make much off the actual hiring of the hospitality suite, its from the bar sales at these events that the club will make money. The more of these events that are held, the more potential of the guests seeing the facilities and spreading the word that st. Mirren is a good place for these events to happen. No additional commercial staff are required, its all free publicity. Through various streams it was stated at the meeting that club could make up to 20% more purely by being involved with the cic and these are conservative figures.

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That's exactly what will happen as an ultimate consequence of the cic collapsing but this will be after trying to find viable ways of paying off the loan - possibly increasing the members fees is one avenue but will more likely involve extending the loan period.

So why is it almost certain to fail?

I would say its almost certain to succeed.

It will only fail if the majority want it to fail, ie, stop being a member, whereas if the majority want it to succeed ( u can't tell me u don't WANT it to succeed?) Then it will prosper and grow - success breeds success.

It's almost certain to fail because it relies on the ability of people with access to limited funds to continue to find extra cash year after year in the face of conflicting demands from the mortgage, power company and feeding the kids, or in the case of business members paying their employees and creditors.

People will commit and then disappear like snow off a dyke when conflicting demnds arise.

We still dont know how big the debt will be, grants for anything rarely amount to more than 20% of outlay, so it's not unreasonable to think that the debt could be 1.6 million. how long do you think it will take a CIC with the proposed membership to pay that off, even if they all stay the distance, which they wont?

How would you like it if your boss said he couldnt pay you a rise this year but found he had invested 10K in 10000 hours for no real return? i know that will be shot down by some of the dafties on here who always try to brandish their supposed business credentials, but ignore them, most business people i know have an element of honesty and decency about them as well as genuine business sense. Most will want to give any cash they can spare direct to good causes such as kid's clubs and sporting initiatives direct as opposed to handing it over to mixed bag of soccer fans and unknown quantities to distribute as they see fit.

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