The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[slapsalmon]

Some really desperate and petty stuff getting posted now

Something that bothers me about this whole saga is that as soon as someone posts any concern about the cic in any form it becomes an anti cic desperate petty post which seeks to "damage the club"

Can people not just not like the idea or think it will fail?

[chico]

Something that bothers me about this whole saga is that as soon as someone posts any concern about the cic in any form it becomes an anti cic desperate petty post which seeks to "damage the club"

Can people not just not like the idea or think it will fail?

Fair point. I thought the entities were separate?

It's a fair point about the crossover between provans and JD sports selling stuff. I know nothing about golf, but do golf playing St mirren fans really spend that sort of money?

Been some fantastic signings this summer. Do I praise mr gilmour and the BOD?

How much longer til the cic takes over?

[div]

Something that bothers me about this whole saga is that as soon as someone posts any concern about the cic in any form it becomes an anti cic desperate petty post which seeks to "damage the club"

Can people not just not like the idea or think it will fail?

That is a fair point. What would be good though is that people gave reasons for thinking it is going to fail rather than just adopting the defacto St.Mirren approach of "it's shite".

We have posters on this forum, apparently St.Mirren supporters, who genuinely believe this deal will be the end of the club. Yet they are doing NOTHING about it other than posting on a forum.

They aren't mounting an alternative bid, they aren't speaking up at the public meetings, they aren't going to see the selling consortium to plead with them not to sell, they aren't doing anything at all really. I find that difficult to swallow and leads me to believe that actually, they don't have any concrete reasons why they think it will fail, they just don't understand it, don't want to understand it, and love being negative as it's easier than embracing new ideas.

The CIC might fail, that is true, everything in life carries a risk and when you do something on a scale that hasn't been done before that risk increases. This is true.

Failure in this case means the majority shareholding being put back on the open market for sale, just as it is today, and at a greatly reduced price.

There is also the distinct possibility that the CIC may also be the best thing that has ever happened to the club. The destiny of the football club will be in the hands of the supporters, surely the very people who care about it the most ?

Give me clear reasoning and debate about why it is a bad thing for St.Mirren and I, and I am sure many others, will listen.

Posting in a wild western style about Motherwell having more scarves for sale than us isn't really adding to the debate IMO.

[St. Sid]

Something that bothers me about this whole saga is that as soon as someone posts any concern about the cic in any form it becomes an anti cic desperate petty post which seeks to "damage the club"

Can people not just not like the idea or think it will fail?

If it was a genuine concern about the CIC it would quickly find its way into the Q&A. The current situation with the strips and the merchandising has nothing to do with the CIC. It is a decision made by the entire SMFC BoD, not the CIC. So it isn't even a genuine criticism of the CIC, it has more to do with a personal vendetta against a member of the current BoD who is not involved with the CIC BoD.

The only other concern expressed relates to Stu accusing Div of benefiting on a personal basis when the CIC goes ahead. Does that not bother you or is your bothering selective?

The anti-CIC campaign if you take Yul's / animal's post as being anything other than nonsense looks to be an organised and yet clandestine. The "concerns" have not been established or developed, just repeated ad nauseum without any supporting information. Running a campaign from a closet that consists of rumourmongering, treacherous, mendacious scumbaggery is hardly going to endear these fallacious sneak thiefs to the support.

Thinking it will fail in a "Yul thinks pink will be all the rage this season" is hardly going to have any impact on the CIC plans. The anti-CIC brigade are running out of time. They have been given months to construct a reasonable debate on the demerits of the CIC and have declined to present that...merely sniping hear and there about nothing from the comfort of their closet, whilst the CIC proposers have served their proposals through an open consultative process - the like of which Scottish football has not seen before.

The tactic appears to be post innuendo and to repeat the same drivel over and over again and then when they are called on it cry "no fair".

We keep hearing about the "alternatives" and yet we see nothing about the alternative "offer". Just more blah blah from the comfort of the closet with the tag line....."more to come"..or some such bollox along those lines. And yet all that ever comes is a regurgitation of the previous unuseful nonsense. If there is an alternative let's hear it. I am sure Div will give the closet proposers a Board similar to this one to present their proposals for the club. (For a slice of the action if they are successful of course - so Stu can feel equally morally outraged as he is now )

The reason they won't come out of the closet is quite simple and it doesn't require Yul Brynner or another Internet incarnation of the muppet behind it to post innuendo and general drivel to suggest it. It is blatantly obvious from the behaviour of the posters hinting at it.

[Stuart Dickson]

One of my big concerns has never been addressed and I've laid it out as clearly as I can. I've e-mailed Richard Atkinson and I've posted to death on here. Perhaps I'm guilty of not posting it as a question, rather choosing to make it a statement, but I've said repeatedly that I think the main weakness in the whole plan is the involvement of St Mirren supporters. No-one has allayed that concern, no-one has really addressed that concern and watching the debate develop I think my concern has become more and more justified as time goes on. Quite simply St Mirren fans are not intelligent enough to understand the way this needs to work, they aren't open minded enough to grasp that business concepts that getting the stadium to operate seven days a week doesn't necessarily involve them, and they aren't generous enough to understand that having the club allocate a proportion of it's annual budget on community members projects could reap massive returns, without ever seeing an increase in gate figures. And if they aren't capable of grasping the basic concept of a Community Interest Company it's actually quite chilling that they will be involved in the process that sees members elected to the relevant boards. Indeed if they are looking for a potential money spinning use of the old club shop I reckon they should turn it into a sex shop selling mainly masturbation aids - because there's so many wankers in the St Mirren support it can't fail to make profit.

However having said that I don't think it will fail at all. Rather I think it won't develop to be as successful for St Mirren FC as it should be. A lot of people have been asked to take a punt on this and for community groups and corporate groups it's going to represent a significant gamble. If the elected boards can't deliver enough of a benefit to them those bodies certainly won't be there in year 2 or 3 - or indeed perhaps ever again. Add to that the fact that many other organisations will have been approached and whilst they may have rejected the initial approach they are likely to be stood on the sidelines watching to see if the successes are great enough for them to take their punt in year 2. Those businesses and community groups are fundamental to the application for funding and for future income.

Predicting the demise of the project on the basis that you can't buy a new scarf it just ridiculous.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Stuart Dickson

[marrez]

The cic could be attracting more local companies, I think the 10k price is putting people off.

There are obvious benefits to joining and I have seriously considered whether 10k would be money well spent from a commercial point of view. I would suggest that a lower level of commerical interest be offered with the following benefits.

I would imagine it wouldnt be too hard to get 50 to 100 local companies paying £1000-2000 a year to be part of a group of companies, each with a sole business interest (i.e - one plumbing company, one joinery, one internet company, one computer hardware company, one painter and decorator etc etc) it would allow like minded St Mirren fans to interact with others based on a possible barter/communal interest.

As a local company, I prefer dealing with local companies, in addition, I prefer to deal with people who have the same interests as me, if this can benefit the club at the same time, then I think it would be money well spent.

Effectively, I think the corporate idea is good, but it hasnt been totally thought out, I know this is all still a work in progress, and Richard has suggested that I could share a membership, but I would like to have my own corporate membership but not at the costs offered at the moment.

I also think as a community interest, its a pretty major aspect that the CIC may have overlooked, or priced themselves out of.

Edited July 13, 2011 by marrez

[TsuMirren]

Great post Stuart.

Basically it sums up why I didn't think the CIC was for Saint Mirren.

Saint Mirren, as a club, are the perfect club to run a CIC around. We have a new ground, training facility, no debt, run a tight ship and are in the SPL. I've been there before with Ebbsfleet United and can see that a lot of the problems there will not exist here. Sadly, for every issue that is removed there seems to be one that raises it's head here. Nobody has even touched on how we'd all communicate, but it would have to include an element of forum discussion and the forums around the SMFC have always pointed at that being a nightmare. Every little thing on here or the official forum gets pulled to bits, you have users stating that they have inside info (btw, insiders with info should put up or shut up) and I'm already sick of St Sid constantly winding people up on here...mainly as it's highly likely it turns off more people than the anti-CIC posts or posters he goes off on one about. It doesn't matter who takes over as they'll get it, I've been there before so know it's coming but the potential is there to lose good people because they don't see why they should spend weeks explaining the budget. You'll have people who'll create no win situations, such as "I don't wany to see the budgets, you'll only doctor them" when going over their view of the budget.

I really can't be bothered going over scenarion after scenario of how this could all blow up, plenty of time for that should it go through. The positives to take are that with Saint Mirren we can easily make it work, we have good people involved both in the CIC orithin the Saint Mirren fanbase and that we're in a better position than any other group who've tried this. Red herrings about the laundry or coffee afternoons should be ignored as EVERY little will help. Plus, the obvious Yul posts and mates of insiders (the cowardly route, if even true) spouting off need taking apart to find anything in there and, SADLY, judged for actual intent. If it includes anything about some mythical other option, that option needs to step up and not by 2 or 3 torch carrying forum members. If the post includes info about supposed unhappy members of the selling consortium then what did they expect, who else could they sell to and maybe they shouldn't have shafted other board members in the process of creating the consortium in the first place.

[TsuMirren]

I would imagine it wouldnt be too hard to get 50 to 100 local companies paying £1000-2000 a year to be part of a group of companies, each with a sole business interest (i.e - one plumbing company, one joinery, one internet company, one computer hardware company, one painter and decorator etc etc) it would allow like minded St Mirren fans to interact with others based on a possible barter/communal interest.

Nothing to stop joint ventures, perhaps it just needs the CIC to actually be reality in order to facilitate that. Plus, the members bar will be invaluable in this regard so join as an individual and then I don't see anyone voting against a programme whereby individuals can join as a business members and transfer their £10 across as part of the 10K or however much fee.

[St. Sid]

The cic could be attracting more local companies, I think the 10k price is putting people off.

There are obvious benefits to joining and I have seriously considered whether 10k would be money well spent from a commercial point of view. I would suggest that a lower level of commerical interest be offered with the following benefits.

I would imagine it wouldnt be too hard to get 50 to 100 local companies paying £1000-2000 a year to be part of a group of companies, each with a sole business interest (i.e - one plumbing company, one joinery, one internet company, one computer hardware company, one painter and decorator etc etc) it would allow like minded St Mirren fans to interact with others based on a possible barter/communal interest.

As a local company, I prefer dealing with local companies, in addition, I prefer to deal with people who have the same interests as me, if this can benefit the club at the same time, then I think it would be money well spent.

Effectively, I think the corporate idea is good, but it hasnt been totally thought out, I know this is all still a work in progress, and Richard has suggested that I could share a membership, but I would like to have my own corporate membership but not at the costs offered at the moment.

I also think as a community interest, its a pretty major aspect that the CIC may have overlooked, or priced themselves out of.

Good post, and one that is full of positive opportunities for the CIC and ultimately the club. Perhaps a second level of corporate membership could be looked at. If there's money available we should find a way of tapping into it and find an appropriate offer that would suit all parties without undermining the £10K corporate members. Pretty sure Richard suggested this would be available with reduced benefits, which could be broken up to allow a number of members to participate. Definitely something we should be working on and perhaps looking at alternative benefits that fit the size / type of company...as in SMEs rather than corporates.

[Stuart Dickson]

The cic could be attracting more local companies, I think the 10k price is putting people off.

There are obvious benefits to joining and I have seriously considered whether 10k would be money well spent from a commercial point of view. I would suggest that a lower level of commerical interest be offered with the following benefits.

I would imagine it wouldnt be too hard to get 50 to 100 local companies paying £1000-2000 a year to be part of a group of companies, each with a sole business interest (i.e - one plumbing company, one joinery, one internet company, one computer hardware company, one painter and decorator etc etc) it would allow like minded St Mirren fans to interact with others based on a possible barter/communal interest.

As a local company, I prefer dealing with local companies, in addition, I prefer to deal with people who have the same interests as me, if this can benefit the club at the same time, then I think it would be money well spent.

Effectively, I think the corporate idea is good, but it hasnt been totally thought out, I know this is all still a work in progress, and Richard has suggested that I could share a membership, but I would like to have my own corporate membership but not at the costs offered at the moment.

I also think as a community interest, its a pretty major aspect that the CIC may have overlooked, or priced themselves out of.

Yeah I thought £10k was pitched too high as well but I presume it must have been pitched at that level because there are businesses there would do £10k + worth of business with St Mirren in a season. I would have thought it would make sense for the likes of JD Sports for example, or for this Orchid Energy Company and then perhaps for the company St Mirren hire their buses from. For the likes of them it wouldn't mean a £10k outlay, more a case of providing services to the club to the value of £10k - which in reality probably costs them around £2.5k to £3k.

I subsequently learned that being involved in a CIC or an SEN could open other doors, perhaps to public sector contracts. There was the example of Spartans who won a dental health contract form Lothian NHS. At our football team we've got a number of sponsors who's major contracts are in the public sector and they've been feeling a squeeze in new bids thanks to increased competition from opening the market. However they told me that one factor in the bidding process that could win them an advantage over more distant rivals would be if they could show that awarding them the contract would offer a significant benefit to the local community. To give an example - if I was a joiner feeling the squeeze I could approach a CIC, ask them to set up a trading arm of the CIC that does joinery work, I could run that subsidiary, submit the quote using my trade qualifications and use the CIC to show community benefit. Then if the CIC win the contract they deduct a management fee and sub the contract out to my company. I probably haven't explained that very well but it's all totally legal and ethical and it's been confirmed that it would give the CIC bid a significant advantage over other bids.

Anyway the point I'm getting at is that perhaps to the right kind of company £10k might be about right but it really limits the scope and range of the businesses you can attract and certainly at this stage in the process it would represent a massive punt for any company getting involved.

[Stuart Dickson]

Great post Stuart.

Basically it sums up why I didn't think the CIC was for Saint Mirren.

Saint Mirren, as a club, are the perfect club to run a CIC around. We have a new ground, training facility, no debt, run a tight ship and are in the SPL. I've been there before with Ebbsfleet United and can see that a lot of the problems there will not exist here. Sadly, for every issue that is removed there seems to be one that raises it's head here. Nobody has even touched on how we'd all communicate, but it would have to include an element of forum discussion and the forums around the SMFC have always pointed at that being a nightmare. Every little thing on here or the official forum gets pulled to bits, you have users stating that they have inside info (btw, insiders with info should put up or shut up) and I'm already sick of St Sid constantly winding people up on here...mainly as it's highly likely it turns off more people than the anti-CIC posts or posters he goes off on one about. It doesn't matter who takes over as they'll get it, I've been there before so know it's coming but the potential is there to lose good people because they don't see why they should spend weeks explaining the budget. You'll have people who'll create no win situations, such as "I don't wany to see the budgets, you'll only doctor them" when going over their view of the budget.

I really can't be bothered going over scenarion after scenario of how this could all blow up, plenty of time for that should it go through. The positives to take are that with Saint Mirren we can easily make it work, we have good people involved both in the CIC orithin the Saint Mirren fanbase and that we're in a better position than any other group who've tried this. Red herrings about the laundry or coffee afternoons should be ignored as EVERY little will help. Plus, the obvious Yul posts and mates of insiders (the cowardly route, if even true) spouting off need taking apart to find anything in there and, SADLY, judged for actual intent. If it includes anything about some mythical other option, that option needs to step up and not by 2 or 3 torch carrying forum members. If the post includes info about supposed unhappy members of the selling consortium then what did they expect, who else could they sell to and maybe they shouldn't have shafted other board members in the process of creating the consortium in the first place.

Aye - can you imagine on a Saturday going to a football match with your kids and having people stop you every few yards asking you why the CIC isn't doing this, or hasn't done that, or worse telling you to sack the manager when you are elected to CIC board and not the St Mirren board?

I'm sure there will be plenty of people switched off from standing for election just on those grounds alone, never mind the fact that they have to travel to meetings, and sit listening to the mundane articles of running a football club.

I'd hope that the format would be that representatives would be elected and just left to get on with it for a year - and they can then be judged on the basis of what progress the CIC has made rather than being asked to justify why the centre half runs as though he's wearing concrete boots, or where the goalkeeper hides his fangs since he's scared of crosses. I also hope they get the right people in, people who understand the CIC concept, who will put in the work to make it grow and who will stay focused on the target no matter what abuse they are taking.

[pod]

Mr.Resident Motherwell Fan.

Are you buying into this CIC.

If not,why are you so concerned.

If you are,why are you attempting to put so much doubt into peoples mind.

Curious about your agenda.

[slapsalmon]

The merchandise and laundry etc aren't reasons I don't think it will work, but I do think the laundry is a shite idea and I do think its stupid that no merchandise is available. How does st sid know who on the board made that decision? He doesn't. From where I'm looking at it aikinson is the marketing guy and the board have taken a back seat on things due to the takeover, so what's to say they havn't with that?

Aside from the small stuff, the main reason I don't think it will work is that any time I've dealt with a committee its been a nightmare. Things take an age to get done and this is essentially 3 committees trying to work together which for me means it'll take 3 times as long as any other committee to come to a decision. I reckon that will get boring for your average member.

Another thing which is a touch worrying is that cashflow in football clubs is notoriously shite. Moneys there when its there. I don't doubt for a second that the current board have sorted that from time to time the way maxi group did earlier this year. Who will do this when we don't have a conventional board?

As for alternatives, I don't have one. Which is why I've said I hope it works. I've never said I don't want it to happen, only that imho I don't think it'll work in the long run.

I do wish though that anybody against the idea was allowed to be, because all the sniping about the "anti cic brigade" etc is in no way better than the people who are sniping against the cic. It's all a bit tedious and I have to agree with tsu that it is offputting to read.

[Gruffalo]

Stu the problem for me is that Yul may have some valid posts but they are all dressed up in the ridiculous presentation . It is obvious that a lot of thought has been put in to the presentation but because of they manner they are presented you cannot take them serious.

You are also right that there are pro-CiC who don’t take questions or criticism of the current process too well. These are the people who were taken under the wing early doors to sell the CiC to the rest of the punters. (not a bad thing and actually a very good marketing strategy)

But on the other hand there are anti-CiC posters such as Animal/Yul who have an Agenda. Rather than come on with valid questions or concerns they turn every aspect of the CiC process in to a perceived problem.

Take for example the laundry thing its being mocked as getting your smalls washed, If the CiC announced that they had signed all the hotels and restaurants up on a term contract to clean their laundry at a anticipated profit of £XXX would it still be mocked.

We have posters on this forum who are still too thick to understand that the CiC and the Club exist as two completely separate entities. For example the fact you can’t buy a scarf at the moment is an issue with the club not the CiC. The fact that the CiC is not completed is due to third party funding that has still to be approved. The timeline from my experience is a moving target. Certain milestones to even get to be considered for funding had to be met. (The fan/business/ community bit) So again to critical of individuals for that is harsh.

My concerns with the CiC are as follows.

I get that if I contribute to the CiC that my money goes towards the financial package to take control of the club and its facilities. But ultimately my money is going to a business that is looking to reinvest resources back in to the community. I also get that the Club stands to benefit from the potential of the community input. The principals of the CiC are fantastic and should be exactly what a club like St Mirren is all about.

My concern is that REA will use the club and its facilities for his own charitable ends. (That he has more interest in the success of the CiC than the success of the club). In the short term the CiC relies on the Club and its fans. However if the CiC becomes successful then there is a potential that the need of the club and the fans becomes diminished. In my opinion REA has selected St Mirren for the CiC not because it is St Mirren but because of its facilities and their availability at £2m.

[bud77]

One of my big concerns has never been addressed and I've laid it out as clearly as I can. I've e-mailed Richard Atkinson and I've posted to death on here. Perhaps I'm guilty of not posting it as a question, rather choosing to make it a statement, but I've said repeatedly that I think the main weakness in the whole plan is the involvement of St Mirren supporters. No-one has allayed that concern, no-one has really addressed that concern and watching the debate develop I think my concern has become more and more justified as time goes on. Quite simply St Mirren fans are not intelligent enough to understand the way this needs to work, they aren't open minded enough to grasp that business concepts that getting the stadium to operate seven days a week doesn't necessarily involve them, and they aren't generous enough to understand that having the club allocate a proportion of it's annual budget on community members projects could reap massive returns, without ever seeing an increase in gate figures. And if they aren't capable of grasping the basic concept of a Community Interest Company it's actually quite chilling that they will be involved in the process that sees members elected to the relevant boards. Indeed if they are looking for a potential money spinning use of the old club shop I reckon they should turn it into a sex shop selling mainly masturbation aids - because there's so many wankers in the St Mirren support it can't fail to make profit.

However having said that I don't think it will fail at all. Rather I think it won't develop to be as successful for St Mirren FC as it should be. A lot of people have been asked to take a punt on this and for community groups and corporate groups it's going to represent a significant gamble. If the elected boards can't deliver enough of a benefit to them those bodies certainly won't be there in year 2 or 3 - or indeed perhaps ever again. Add to that the fact that many other organisations will have been approached and whilst they may have rejected the initial approach they are likely to be stood on the sidelines watching to see if the successes are great enough for them to take their punt in year 2. Those businesses and community groups are fundamental to the application for funding and for future income.

Predicting the demise of the project on the basis that you can't buy a new scarf it just ridiculous.

I won't make any comment on you calling all saints fans wankers - you've obviously got a lot more experience at that than we have.

As for us being thick, I know saints fans who are teachers, lawyers, run their own businesses etc but quite simply until we know all the organizations that are getting involved how can we suggest what can be done for them ? Yes, we all know you have your agenda for your football club but there are other organisations that have already signed up that should have priority on the use of the facilities before we can see what can be done to attract more community and business interests. I certainly don't expect to be using the facilities 7 days a week myself but there might be organisations involved that I will support, whether that's attending a charity function or a few quid in a collection can, until I know who is invoilved I can;t say for definite.

You also seem to be making the mistake, again, that that the club is becoming a cic, it's not it will still be a commercial business and have to budget within it's means. It's the cic board that will have to look at how much of their budget can go towards community charities and how much towards paying the debt. The club board could encourage players, coaching staff etc to attend events but I wouldn't think employment law will allow them to compel anyone to attend.

[FTOF]

Well obviously not....can you enlighten me?

Try reading more carefully then.

Edited July 13, 2011 by FTOF

[Stuart Dickson]

Mr.Resident Motherwell Fan.

Are you buying into this CIC.

If not,why are you so concerned.

If you are,why are you attempting to put so much doubt into peoples mind.

Curious about your agenda.

What is it with St Mirren fans and their inability to follow a thread....

Pod, to fill you in

1. I am a signed up Individual Member - number 18 I believe.

2. I am sold on the CIC indeed I'm so sold on it I tried to get the juvenile football club I am on the committee of to join as a Community Member. The committee didn't follow my lead which was hardly surprising since it was impossible to get confirmation of what the return would be without the CIC and Football Club board being elected. However I am a staunch believer in CIC's and SEN's - I attended a recent SEN conference at Stirling University where I saw practical examples of what was being done and I've been completely inspired by that.

3. I am no more a Motherwell fan than I am a St Mirren one. Div put the "Resident Motherwell Fan" tag on my account and I'm happy to play up to that.They are my local club - I do watch them more than St Mirren these days but if I am a supporter of any football club at all it would be Sunderland where I have a strong emotional attachment from my past.

4. I don't see how you come to the conclusion that I am attempting to put doubt in peoples minds? As I've said all throughout I've been one of the biggest supporters of 10000hours on this forum. However I am honest enough to see a problem and far from trying to put a gloss on it I've expressed that concern several times in several different ways. I'm not really looking for an answer - I just genuinely believe St Mirren fans aren't capable of grasping the concept at all and I think that there is a real danger that the CIC won't achieve it's potential at St Mirren because of it.

5. An agenda? Maybe subconsciously I want to see it succeed so I can tell my fellow committee members they should have listened to me but apart from that I don't think I have one. I've already declared I have no interest in seeking election and the members bar isn't going to be any use to me because even if I do decide to visit St Mirren Park the last thing I'd want to do is sit with St Mirren fans in a bar.

Hope that helps....

[Stuart Dickson]

The merchandise and laundry etc aren't reasons I don't think it will work, but I do think the laundry is a shite idea and I do think its stupid that no merchandise is available. How does st sid know who on the board made that decision? He doesn't. From where I'm looking at it aikinson is the marketing guy and the board have taken a back seat on things due to the takeover, so what's to say they havn't with that?

Aside from the small stuff, the main reason I don't think it will work is that any time I've dealt with a committee its been a nightmare. Things take an age to get done and this is essentially 3 committees trying to work together which for me means it'll take 3 times as long as any other committee to come to a decision. I reckon that will get boring for your average member.

Another thing which is a touch worrying is that cashflow in football clubs is notoriously shite. Moneys there when its there. I don't doubt for a second that the current board have sorted that from time to time the way maxi group did earlier this year. Who will do this when we don't have a conventional board?

As for alternatives, I don't have one. Which is why I've said I hope it works. I've never said I don't want it to happen, only that imho I don't think it'll work in the long run.

I do wish though that anybody against the idea was allowed to be, because all the sniping about the "anti cic brigade" etc is in no way better than the people who are sniping against the cic. It's all a bit tedious and I have to agree with tsu that it is offputting to read.

Slapsalmon, having spent years on various committee's I agree with you. They are often incredibly frustrating, especially when they don't move as quickly as you want them to, or when elected members refuse point blank to use technology that is available to them to take decisions that matter promptly and before the next scheduled meeting. Hopefully under the CIC model each member will be allocated a task and be left to get on with it, feeding back their progress on a monthly basis. That is the model that is working best for us at our juvenile club at the moment and although things can still be frustratingly slow everything in the club is moving with a fair bit of momentum now.

As for cash flow - under the CIC model I don't see it being a problem. To give a genuine example from the conference - there was a charity in Greenock that used to get government grants and they would spend the money on veg to give to the poor. It worked ok but they would spend their grant allocation and then wouldn't be able to supply the veg again until their next grant was released. The government pulled the grants a couple of years back and rather than just fold the charity decided to become an SEN and opened a coffee shop in Oak Mall. According to the conference this is in profit to the tune of around £300 per day. Sometimes it's up, sometimes it's down, but the people running it know that every day they have roughly £300 they can use to purchase fruit and veg to distribute. They've eliminated their cash flow problem, and a CIC at St Mirren Park would do much the same by ensuring that the facilities were bringing in cash every day over the summer and over periods in the winter when matches are being postponed.

[Stuart Dickson]

The merchandise and laundry etc aren't reasons I don't think it will work, but I do think the laundry is a shite idea and I do think its stupid that no merchandise is available. How does st sid know who on the board made that decision? He doesn't. From where I'm looking at it aikinson is the marketing guy and the board have taken a back seat on things due to the takeover, so what's to say they havn't with that?

Aside from the small stuff, the main reason I don't think it will work is that any time I've dealt with a committee its been a nightmare. Things take an age to get done and this is essentially 3 committees trying to work together which for me means it'll take 3 times as long as any other committee to come to a decision. I reckon that will get boring for your average member.

Another thing which is a touch worrying is that cashflow in football clubs is notoriously shite. Moneys there when its there. I don't doubt for a second that the current board have sorted that from time to time the way maxi group did earlier this year. Who will do this when we don't have a conventional board?

As for alternatives, I don't have one. Which is why I've said I hope it works. I've never said I don't want it to happen, only that imho I don't think it'll work in the long run.

I do wish though that anybody against the idea was allowed to be, because all the sniping about the "anti cic brigade" etc is in no way better than the people who are sniping against the cic. It's all a bit tedious and I have to agree with tsu that it is offputting to read.

Slapsalmon, having spent years on various committee's I agree with you. They are often incredibly frustrating, especially when they don't move as quickly as you want them to, or when elected members refuse point blank to use technology that is available to them to take decisions that matter promptly and before the next scheduled meeting. Hopefully under the CIC model each member will be allocated a task and be left to get on with it, feeding back their progress on a monthly basis. That is the model that is working best for us at our juvenile club at the moment and although things can still be frustratingly slow everything in the club is moving with a fair bit of momentum now.

As for cash flow - under the CIC model I don't see it being a problem. To give a genuine example from the conference - there was a charity in Greenock that used to get government grants and they would spend the money on veg to give to the poor. It worked ok but they would spend their grant allocation and then wouldn't be able to supply the veg again until their next grant was released. The government pulled the grants a couple of years back and rather than just fold the charity decided to become an SEN and opened a coffee shop in Oak Mall. According to the conference this is in profit to the tune of around £300 per day. Sometimes it's up, sometimes it's down, but the people running it know that every day they have roughly £300 they can use to purchase fruit and veg to distribute. They've eliminated their cash flow problem, and a CIC at St Mirren Park would do much the same by ensuring that the facilities were bringing in cash every day over the summer and over periods in the winter when matches are being postponed.

[Stuart Dickson]

Stu the problem for me is that Yul may have some valid posts but they are all dressed up in the ridiculous presentation . It is obvious that a lot of thought has been put in to the presentation but because of they manner they are presented you cannot take them serious.

You are also right that there are pro-CiC who don’t take questions or criticism of the current process too well. These are the people who were taken under the wing early doors to sell the CiC to the rest of the punters. (not a bad thing and actually a very good marketing strategy)

But on the other hand there are anti-CiC posters such as Animal/Yul who have an Agenda. Rather than come on with valid questions or concerns they turn every aspect of the CiC process in to a perceived problem.

Take for example the laundry thing its being mocked as getting your smalls washed, If the CiC announced that they had signed all the hotels and restaurants up on a term contract to clean their laundry at a anticipated profit of £XXX would it still be mocked.

We have posters on this forum who are still too thick to understand that the CiC and the Club exist as two completely separate entities. For example the fact you can’t buy a scarf at the moment is an issue with the club not the CiC. The fact that the CiC is not completed is due to third party funding that has still to be approved. The timeline from my experience is a moving target. Certain milestones to even get to be considered for funding had to be met. (The fan/business/ community bit) So again to critical of individuals for that is harsh.

My concerns with the CiC are as follows.

I get that if I contribute to the CiC that my money goes towards the financial package to take control of the club and its facilities. But ultimately my money is going to a business that is looking to reinvest resources back in to the community. I also get that the Club stands to benefit from the potential of the community input. The principals of the CiC are fantastic and should be exactly what a club like St Mirren is all about.

My concern is that REA will use the club and its facilities for his own charitable ends. (That he has more interest in the success of the CiC than the success of the club). In the short term the CiC relies on the Club and its fans. However if the CiC becomes successful then there is a potential that the need of the club and the fans becomes diminished. In my opinion REA has selected St Mirren for the CiC not because it is St Mirren but because of its facilities and their availability at £2m.

I agree with this bit completely - however I don't see it as a concern. I believe totally that 10000hours will expand right across the country. I think they'll do it with or without St Mirren and I believe that St Mirren will simply become one of it's trading arms. However this has benefits. For example cash flow problems will be eliminated. The club should have facilities they can train on in Lanarkshire, West Lothian, Ayrshire, Clackmannanshire, in fact wherever the weather is favourable if it's not at Ralston. It also allows for greater volume purchasing discounts, and perhaps the ability to bring all the covered groups together to bring mutual benefits all round.

I gave a footballing example months back that I've repeated a few times where you could be expanding the scouting network available to St Mirren FC all for free. It's completely and utterly viable.....if the people who are elected can recognise the opportunity.

[Stuart Dickson]

I won't make any comment on you calling all saints fans wankers - you've obviously got a lot more experience at that than we have.

As for us being thick, I know saints fans who are teachers, lawyers, run their own businesses etc but quite simply until we know all the organizations that are getting involved how can we suggest what can be done for them ? Yes, we all know you have your agenda for your football club but there are other organisations that have already signed up that should have priority on the use of the facilities before we can see what can be done to attract more community and business interests. I certainly don't expect to be using the facilities 7 days a week myself but there might be organisations involved that I will support, whether that's attending a charity function or a few quid in a collection can, until I know who is invoilved I can;t say for definite.

You also seem to be making the mistake, again, that that the club is becoming a cic, it's not it will still be a commercial business and have to budget within it's means. It's the cic board that will have to look at how much of their budget can go towards community charities and how much towards paying the debt. The club board could encourage players, coaching staff etc to attend events but I wouldn't think employment law will allow them to compel anyone to attend.

Thanks for proving my point....

[St. Sid]

The merchandise and laundry etc aren't reasons I don't think it will work, but I do think the laundry is a shite idea and I do think its stupid that no merchandise is available. How does st sid know who on the board made that decision? He doesn't. From where I'm looking at it aikinson is the marketing guy and the board have taken a back seat on things due to the takeover, so what's to say they havn't with that?

Aside from the small stuff, the main reason I don't think it will work is that any time I've dealt with a committee its been a nightmare. Things take an age to get done and this is essentially 3 committees trying to work together which for me means it'll take 3 times as long as any other committee to come to a decision. I reckon that will get boring for your average member.

Another thing which is a touch worrying is that cashflow in football clubs is notoriously shite. Moneys there when its there. I don't doubt for a second that the current board have sorted that from time to time the way maxi group did earlier this year. Who will do this when we don't have a conventional board?

As for alternatives, I don't have one. Which is why I've said I hope it works. I've never said I don't want it to happen, only that imho I don't think it'll work in the long run.

I do wish though that anybody against the idea was allowed to be, because all the sniping about the "anti cic brigade" etc is in no way better than the people who are sniping against the cic. It's all a bit tedious and I have to agree with tsu that it is offputting to read.

Another good post. You lay out your concerns clearly, openly and honestly. It would be useful if everyone would do that rather than throwing around very speculative accusations. I thin k your first point is borderline though. The BoD make the decisions as a Board, although there will be instances where an individual will have some responsibilities delegated to them. Suggesting that REA decided to terminate Provans contract without having to get the full suppot of the BoD doesn't add up.

I am not a fan of committees either especially tin pot ones with small budgets where some bawbag has a gavel. I reckon the most boring of all the committees will be the SMFC BoD. The bigger questions of interest to the likes of us will be taking place at CIC member BoD level. However, the idea that the Boards will be constructed in a way that would restrict the flow of the business is again a poor one. The members operating across all three BoDs will also ensure swift resolution of issues and a flow of consensus in strategic decision making.

Not too concerned about this either. This is the baby of Richie Rich. As you state we have already seen financial intervention in a cashflow issue before the CIC has even kicked off. We will also have some very wealthy corporations on board as CIC Corporate Members. This will make us stronger from a cashflow prespective than we have been for years. The CIC will also lead to cross feeding of projects that will provide more flexibility in funding. However, it should be noted that the CIC Members BoD will be allocated a set budget. There is the option to put forward a business case for additional funding from the 10,000 hrs BoD if required. Like I say this model provides far more financing options for the club than a traditional model, where it is traditional loans or nae luck!

Sniping begets sniping. Good well constructed concerns develop reasoned discussion and debate, which was what this part of the forum was set up for. We would all be happier if we got good, well constructed and honest concerns like the post you have put forward as they can be addressed. You might still disagree, but it is at least informative. Spurious allegations and speculative unfounded rants from posters clearly operating under their own personal agenda has certainly set a negative tone in the boards and that is disappointing - but sadly not unexpected.

[St. Sid]

I agree with this bit completely - however I don't see it as a concern. I believe totally that 10000hours will expand right across the country. I think they'll do it with or without St Mirren and I believe that St Mirren will simply become one of it's trading arms. However this has benefits. For example cash flow problems will be eliminated. The club should have facilities they can train on in Lanarkshire, West Lothian, Ayrshire, Clackmannanshire, in fact wherever the weather is favourable if it's not at Ralston. It also allows for greater volume purchasing discounts, and perhaps the ability to bring all the covered groups together to bring mutual benefits all round.

I gave a footballing example months back that I've repeated a few times where you could be expanding the scouting network available to St Mirren FC all for free. It's completely and utterly viable.....if the people who are elected can recognise the opportunity.

Shame you hide your decent points in amongst contentious mince.

[bud77]

Thanks for proving my point....

Since you're the forum expert on CiC's and SEN's why don't you enlighten us all as to how you would keep the community and charitable organizations that have already signed up happy if you were elected to the CiC board - bearing in mind that we don't know the names of most of those organisations or what size of budget will be available or what the club board and to a certain extent the executive board will or won't agree to.

[Stuart Dickson]

Since you're the forum expert on CiC's and SEN's why don't you enlighten us all as to how you would keep the community and charitable organizations that have already signed up happy if you were elected to the CiC board - bearing in mind that we don't know the names of most of those organisations or what size of budget will be available or what the club board and to a certain extent the executive board will or won't agree to.

....tap....tap...tap....nope nothing there....

Yeah, if you could read you'll see that I have said.....

1. I am not interested in a place on the board.

2. That the criticism around the SEN conference was that 10000hours had to do this deal back to front and that they shouldn't have been looking for members until the club had been taken over. Cart before horse as I've posted on here, and explained to Richard over the phone - a point which he agreed with. Unfortunately it was the nature of the deal that had to be done - commitment from members had to be sought to show the funding bodies the size of the community that this was affecting however from a community or corporate point of view it meant a large leap of faith. I've repeated that many, many times over.

3. You are going to have to keep all those members happy by ensuring they get a greater return than their investment. I've said this several times too. It doesn't matter who they are or what they do if the football board and the CIC board is unwilling to ensure that they get more money back than they committed the community or corporate group is unlikely to be there next year....and they are the most vital element of a CIC.

Now if you want to continue to prove my point that St Mirren fans aren't intellegent enough to cope with this please continue to make a fool of yourself...