The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[animal]

There is 500k coming from the Social Investment Fund, not directly from the government. As you will also see from their website Spartans FC got a 900k grant from the SIF.

Bit of a cop out there to be honest. If you care as passionately as you seem to and you are as clever as you seem to think you are then surely you'd be well placed to discuss it with Richard and then you can dumb it down for mere f**kwits like myself here on the forum ?

I have never said I was clever but I seem to know a wee bit more about this than you.

However I did not know about this 500K 'contribution'.

I have looked on the web site of the SOCIAL INVESTMENT FUND http://www.socialinvestmentscotland.com

It seems to talk only of LOAN FINANCE. Is this 500K a LOAN or a Grant ????

Have I got the right web site ????

Just to be clear the SOCIAL INVESTMENT FUND is not the same as the SCOTTISH INVESTMENT FUND - which is it ? Or is there a contribution from both . Grant from one loan from another ?

Edited February 7, 2011 by animal

[div]

I have never said I was clever but I seem to know a wee bit more about this than you.

Yes you do seem to know more than me which is why I am perplexed as to why it's you that's asking me the questions !

I'm not involved in the sale of the club, you really need to address your questions to those that are.

I'll leave it at that and hope that you engage with Richard and get the answers you are looking for.

[animal]

Yes you do seem to know more than me which is why I am perplexed as to why it's you that's asking me the questions !

I'm not involved in the sale of the club, you really need to address your questions to those that are.

I'll leave it at that and hope that you engage with Richard and get the answers you are looking for.

Well I was hoping to have a discussion about it. Is that not what the the forum is for ?

You were quick enough to try to 'explain' to us all how the deal would work earlier in the thread.

How about you asking Mr. Atkinson to come on here and answer the questions that I have put, or even him posting couple of pages explaining the deal IN DETAIL would not go amiss.

I will leave it here for tonight as well. In contrast to this, I have some real company accounts and sound financial proposals to look over before tomorrow.

Edited February 7, 2011 by animal

[topdog]

animal = Stuart Dickson? Surely not???

[div]

Well I was hoping to have a discussion about it. Is that not what the the forum is for ?

You were quick enough to try to 'explain' to us all how the deal would work earlier in the thread.

How about you asking Mr. Atkinson to come on here and answer the questions that I have put, or even him posting couple of pages explaining the deal IN DETAIL would not go amiss.

I will leave it here for tonight as well. In contrast to this, I have some real company accounts and sound financial proposals to look over before tomorrow.

Ask him yourself. If you can add up some numbers I'm sure you can use a telephone.

[FTOF]

I see you are not denying that I am right and you are wrong !

This is not just about me. It's about this Club. I have no intention of a cosy private conversation - I want Mr. Atkinson to come on here and explain this scheme to us all. Including you DIV it seems.

Please f**k off and give us all peace you attention seeking wanker.

Edited February 7, 2011 by FTOF

[Drew]

To be perfectly honest, I'd have to wonder about the sanity, credibility, and business acumen of any individual who would want to invest his own money in St Mirren or any other football club. Lottery winning cretins and unscrupulous money laundering crooks seem to be the order of the day....at best.

No ta.

[charlie]

I really do hope they have thought this through properly:

Some bits and pieces- Stenhousmeuir is the best run club in the country. ASFAIK, they budget for no income in any season other than season tickets, they then operate within this package. Thats as much as I know about them. Grants and CiICS - Different story.

The Scottish investment fund provides soft loans ( if we're talking about the same thing). the loan woudl never be called in as a bank would, but there are risks, motst notably, personally to the directors.

Grants are fine, but you are highly unlikely to get a 100% grant, no matter how good your business case. you are therefore required to contribute to the cost of the activity, generally in advance. monies are paid in arears. The audit regime is incredbly tight and can be an administrative nightmare. Also any monies for the project - must be spent on the project - not on anything else. Cashflowis a nightmare. There will be no spare money.

If monies are used to develop a player (for example), who is then sold in the future, there is a possiiblty of clawback (and state aid infringements.

It bursts your arse.

It sounds lovely - but be careful

[div]

What concerns me about this is why it is taking so long for basic information on how this model will work for St Mirren FC Ltd, the supporters and the wider community.

I have asked Mr Atkinson on two public occasions (SMiSA members meeting and AGM) to provide a simple document that answers questions that supporters have about how this works. So far I have seen nothing formal which is disappointing given that I would have expected the existing BoD to have been given a pitch before this group became "preferred" bidders.

At the AGM in December Mr Atkinson said that this would be announced to the "community" in the next few weeks. I asked him to be more specific - and he said it would be in January......now I wish I had asked him which year.

I'm not saying I'm against this scheme, but how can any of us start to formulate an opinion on something that we do not know enough about how it will work for our club.

If supporters are going to become members of this St Mirren ("10,000 hours") CIC and paying around £10 a month they want to know what are the benefits and risks associated with this for themselves and the club they support.

I still don't understand why 2 directors who have no Paisley/Renfrewshire background that I am ware of or a history of supporting St Mirren are so keen to initiate this community venture.....which I brought up the first time I met them....."what's in it for you?"

This model may well be the way forward....and I for one will fully support something that ensures that St Mirren FC continue as a full-time club playing in Paisley for many years to come....preferably in the top league.

I really hope that this takes off and is a total success....I just remain to be convinced that the right people are behind this and missing a key deadline that Mr Atkinson committed to at the AGM loses credibility in my eyes.

Not having any information to take-away at two large gatherings of St Mirren supporters also seems like an opportunity missed in my opinion.

So c'mon Mr Atkinson lets hear the vision for the future.

OWTS.

Good post Eric and I'm sure this is how a lot of St.Mirren fans feel.

I think a lot of the financial detail in the proposal is probably quite sensitive and so almost certainly why Richard or whoever can't come on here and just lay it all on the line.

Personally I was wary of the whole thing for many of the reasons you outlined above, and because even though the funding model has been explained to me I still don't fully understand it. I do however have faith that the selling board members have done their homework and wouldn't have got this far without being sure it was a good move for the club.

Richard is very happy to meet and discuss the situation face to face with any supporter and in fact the success of the whole thing depends on the fans really buying in to the concept.

I'll send him your number if you like and ask him to call you to maybe set up a meeting ?

[ktf]

Everything that can be said has been, as far as I can see, from Div and Sid. However, it is probably worth adding that any loans that are taken on (most of the money from the Scottish Investment Fund is loan money as far as I'm aware) are loans to the CiC, not loans to St Mirren and therefore the club would remain debt-free.

The SIF money is 'soft' and can't be recalled if defaulted on, that is partly why it is taking so long, the SIF people need to know that the infrastructure, facilities and plans are all in place to make the investment viable and able to return the loans. It is a good thing it is taking so long as it is evidence that if it goes through it will likely work. However, if it doesn't, the worst case scenario is that the club ends up in the same position that it is now, debt-free with 52% of the shares for sale. The CiC, made up of fans mainly, will own the shares and have the right to say who buys them.

Hope that helps...

Edited February 8, 2011 by ktf

[HSS]

Animal taking a bit of unfair abuse on this topic.

[div]

Animal taking a bit of unfair abuse on this topic.

Only because of the over aggressive tone and approach in the posts.

[scottd]

Animal taking a bit of unfair abuse on this topic.

It wasn't too bad until he was compared to the Law Fud, that was below the belt.

[ktf]

Animal taking a bit of unfair abuse on this topic.

I don't think that he is taking unfair abuse at all.

He clearly has his own agenda. All of his questions and any point he has made has been written in such a way as to influence negatively on the CiC model. Others who have simply stated fact, he has claimed have been in support of the model, even though there was no evidence of this. This is to make people doubt the credibility of posts from the likes of Div and therefore think that there is something sinister afoot. He has a very clear agenda to make fans think that the idea is bad and is doing it quite cleverly. Probably because he knows the whole scheme relies on the fans to make it work.

Also, comments like "I'm away to do my own company accounts" are an attempt to make him look more clued up and worth listening to than he actually is. And, honesty, is just pure bawbaggery.

He isn't taking unfair abuse at all, he has an obvious agenda to see the scheme fail and is trying to infiltrate that agenda to anyone who will listen. If he'd rather the club went to the likes of Brearly, then he obviously isn't a true St Mirren fan and probably shouldn't be listened to.

Edited February 8, 2011 by ktf

[fmckinn]

ma heid is scrambled reading all this , and now i'm no nearer working out if it is a good thing or not

[ktf]

ma heid is scrambled reading all this , and now i'm no nearer working out if it is a good thing or not

I wouldn't stress about it right now. The club should (hopefully) be making an announcement in the next week or two and people should be able to make a more informed decision from there.

[FTOF]

Animal taking a bit of unfair abuse on this topic.

I think not.

If he was as "professional" as he tries to portray himself (frequently), then he would simply phone up Mr.Atkinson and discuss the matter with him in private as opposed to bleating about it on an internet forum.

His demeanour is almost as if he's challenging Mr.Atkinson to a fight in the playground.

This is a complex process and I would reckon unless everything in the proposed set up is acceptable to SG etc., then they won't sanction any deal.FWIW I think there are some gaping holes in the proposed set up, but I'm quite happy to wait and see what transpires, when or if the deal is nearing completion or indeed is rejected.

Edited February 8, 2011 by FTOF

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Thanks for giving this a thread of its own but I see you have not copied over all the comments I made (see the alan Provan thread). I was not the accountant at mentioned as being at the AGM but do remember Stuart Gilmour having to 'rescue' Mr. atkinson from further questioning by taking the mike from him !

I only want to know why I should let Mr. Atkinson run my club.

As a shareholder I already own a wee bit of the club.

The government in some shape or form will hand over millions of pounds to this Comunity Intrest Company and let Mr.Atkinson and and some well meaning so called supporters run our Club. Why ?

I liked the Brearly scheme more as I said before at least he used his own money.

Mr. Atkinson harps on about Stenhousemuir but that’s a true community set up and one of the best. But stenny is hardly the model for a Premier Club with ambition. Atkinsons model will tie the clubs hands financially in the future.

Best prospect - a middle of the road First Division club.

Would he put in cash if we were in trouble? No he’s not putting ONE PENNY in now. Classic case of using other peoples money here!

He is telling anyone who will listen that it wouldn’t matter what league we are in.

Also the CIC system would hand power to his 'members' who would then dictate to shareholders what happens at the club due to his 52 percent holding. What a slap in the face to them. Some of them have put their hands in their pockets to buy shares a number of times to help out the club knowing that they were just giving that money away. There has been no dividend for years.

A faceless high street brand will take the Club (and us) to the cleaners financially and cut all stock lines.

So much for supporting local businesses. Provans treatment has been a disgrace.

I hear that Braehaed - our major spensor are far from happy about the shirts we played in on Saturday - no logo for a televised game.

Perhaps Mr. Atkinson can come on here sometime soon and give us some answers.

Every single St Mirren supporter will want to know first and foremost all money raised at what risk will it be to the club if it can not be paid. After all we are talking 2 million which is more than the 1.8 million that nearly folded the club.

If this is answered in a simple and clear manner it will let Mr.Atkinson get on with running the club.

As I wrote further back I do have faith in Stuart Gilmour handing the club over to the right people.

I would be interested in making a small monthly contribution to the club if I know it is going to make a difference on the park. But not if it is just for paying back money raised to buy the club. This of course raises the question how many will buy into it as our record as supporters putting in a wee bit extra in the clubs hour of need is grim. I'm talking about fans who can afford to help

SMISA could only get a couple of hundred fans to contribute ten pounds a month out of a hard core of 2,500.

The share Issue was also what could be called a failure as us the fans did not buy what was hoped for.

I'm quite happy to bide my time for Mr.Atkinson to go public on his proposals which I hope is before any deal goes through.

[TsuMirren]

Gach, lost my original post...try again.

I was on the board at Ebbsfleet United, a club run something along the lines of the CIC model. I've a number of issues with it and, hopefully, can get a chance to put them to Mr Atkinson. Not convinced it can work though, but it doesn't mean I don't have a few ideas of how it could. The major plus is that, unlike Ebbsfleet, this should be accepted by locals and isn't saddled by pick the team or other gimmicks.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Gach, lost my original post...try again.

I was on the board at Ebbsfleet United, a club run something along the lines of the CIC model. I've a number of issues with it and, hopefully, can get a chance to put them to Mr Atkinson. Not convinced it can work though, but it doesn't mean I don't have a few ideas of how it could. The major plus is that, unlike Ebbsfleet, this should be accepted by locals and isn't saddled by pick the team or other gimmicks.

That is great to hear

[div]

Gach, lost my original post...try again.

I was on the board at Ebbsfleet United, a club run something along the lines of the CIC model. I've a number of issues with it and, hopefully, can get a chance to put them to Mr Atkinson. Not convinced it can work though, but it doesn't mean I don't have a few ideas of how it could. The major plus is that, unlike Ebbsfleet, this should be accepted by locals and isn't saddled by pick the team or other gimmicks.

I'm sure Richard would appreciate your input. PM me your mobile number and I will pass it on to him Kenny.

[band for life]

I am another who thinks that this CiC idea is alright on paper but quite another in practice, but maybe I’m just a cynical bugger. Fact is there is no easy way to run a football club (at any level), nor a formula to be successful and at the same time debt free, and while we can all mump and moan about the current state of affairs on the park, an overview of where we are (new ground, Ralston, still in the SPL & debt free) is testament to the fantastic job that the current board have done (and to be fair the previous management team), given the financial abyss that we faced not so long ago.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to take the club forward, quite the contrary. Good on them if they they can make a go of it and I very much hope they do. As for the people involved, I have never heard of them either, but frankly, that’s no problem to me. Anyone who thinks getting involved in a football club is a short cut to money and fame needs their head examined and I’m sure that these guys are aware of that. They have been referred to as preferred bidders, but the fact is that, so far, they are the only serious bidders. I think that the current board have also done enough for us to trust them as to the legitimacy of the future guardians of our club.

As for the Provan situation, it’s a strange one as it seemed to be a good fit for all concerned. Strips apart, the time taken to source and buy all the other stuff (T-shirts, mugs, pens, glassware, pennants, bedding etc etc) and to retail them, is way beyond the clubs present means and you would have to assume that these items will no longer be available, which would be a shame (for saddos like me anyway). Alan Provan has done a fine job of making SMFC stuff available over a really wide range of merchandise for supporters of all ages and while it might not have made the club a fortune, it still provides a tangible connection for supporters.

[Drew]

What concerns me about this is why it is taking so long for basic information on how this model will work for St Mirren FC Ltd, the supporters and the wider community.

I have asked Mr Atkinson on two public occasions (SMiSA members meeting and AGM) to provide a simple document that answers questions that supporters have about how this works. So far I have seen nothing formal which is disappointing given that I would have expected the existing BoD to have been given a pitch before this group became "preferred" bidders.

At the AGM in December Mr Atkinson said that this would be announced to the "community" in the next few weeks. I asked him to be more specific - and he said it would be in January......now I wish I had asked him which year.

I'm not saying I'm against this scheme, but how can any of us start to formulate an opinion on something that we do not know enough about how it will work for our club.

If supporters are going to become members of this St Mirren ("10,000 hours") CIC and paying around £10 a month they want to know what are the benefits and risks associated with this for themselves and the club they support.

I still don't understand why 2 directors who have no Paisley/Renfrewshire background that I am ware of or a history of supporting St Mirren are so keen to initiate this community venture.....which I brought up the first time I met them....."what's in it for you?"

This model may well be the way forward....and I for one will fully support something that ensures that St Mirren FC continue as a full-time club playing in Paisley for many years to come....preferably in the top league.

I really hope that this takes off and is a total success....I just remain to be convinced that the right people are behind this and missing a key deadline that Mr Atkinson committed to at the AGM loses credibility in my eyes.

Not having any information to take-away at two large gatherings of St Mirren supporters also seems like an opportunity missed in my opinion.

So c'mon Mr Atkinson lets hear the vision for the future.

OWTS.

Really good post, and pretty much mirrors my position.

I don't know anything like enough about this kind of thing to comment much beyond the fact that I keenly await developments, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested to learn a bit more about the technical details.

I understand that Mr Atkinson comes across as a dynamic and enthusiastic character, full of ideas and initiatives as to how to take the club forward, but I can't help wondering (like yourself), what he is looking for in return. Maybe I'm being a bit cynical after all, but without more information and clarity, it is difficult to be anything other than sceptical at least.

There is an element of being once bitten, twice shy in here. When Danny Lennon came to the club, we were regaled with his vision for playing open and attacking football....aim high and all that. Play the youngsters and communicate more effectively with the supporters etc...etc... It all sounded so promising, but the reality has been more than a little less encouraging. I think Lennon was a tad naive and set himself up. I also think he has struggled to adapt to the harsh realities of top flight football in this country.

I genuinely hope that Mr Atkinson and Co aren't going to make similar miscalculations, because the consequences could be more grave in this context than a manager failing to quite make the grade. The entire future of our club is a stake here, and some reassurance as to where these guys want to take it would be more than welcome.

[div]

I am another who thinks that this CiC idea is alright on paper but quite another in practice, but maybe I’m just a cynical bugger. Fact is there is no easy way to run a football club (at any level), nor a formula to be successful and at the same time debt free, and while we can all mump and moan about the current state of affairs on the park, an overview of where we are (new ground, Ralston, still in the SPL & debt free) is testament to the fantastic job that the current board have done (and to be fair the previous management team), given the financial abyss that we faced not so long ago.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to take the club forward, quite the contrary. Good on them if they they can make a go of it and I very much hope they do. As for the people involved, I have never heard of them either, but frankly, that’s no problem to me. Anyone who thinks getting involved in a football club is a short cut to money and fame needs their head examined and I’m sure that these guys are aware of that. They have been referred to as preferred bidders, but the fact is that, so far, they are the only serious bidders. I think that the current board have also done enough for us to trust them as to the legitimacy of the future guardians of our club.

As for the Provan situation, it’s a strange one as it seemed to be a good fit for all concerned. Strips apart, the time taken to source and buy all the other stuff (T-shirts, mugs, pens, glassware, pennants, bedding etc etc) and to retail them, is way beyond the clubs present means and you would have to assume that these items will no longer be available, which would be a shame (for saddos like me anyway). Alan Provan has done a fine job of making SMFC stuff available over a really wide range of merchandise for supporters of all ages and while it might not have made the club a fortune, it still provides a tangible connection for supporters.

Very good post.

I think the plan is to separate the replica strips from the other stuff. The strips themselves will be sold via a high street retailer, and the other stuff will come back under the umbrella of the club itself.

Whether that means the range reduces/stays the same or expands I guess we will have to wait and see but there is no doubt that the job Alan Provan did in that area was fantastic.

The club don't have a good previous record in that area, we can all remember the shambles that was the "club shop" in the bowels of the Caley Stand before Alan got involved and completely transformed it, but like everything else with the club I guess we need to start afresh and think that we won't make the same mistakes again

[div]

Really good post, and pretty much mirrors my position.

I don't know anything like enough about this kind of thing to comment much beyond the fact that I keenly await developments, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested to learn a bit more about the technical details.

I understand that Mr Atkinson comes across as a dynamic and enthusiastic character, full of ideas and initiatives as to how to take the club forward, but I can't help wondering (like yourself), what he is looking for in return. Maybe I'm being a bit cynical after all, but without more information and clarity, it is difficult to be anything other than sceptical at least.

There is an element of being once bitten, twice shy in here. When Danny Lennon came to the club, we were regaled with his vision for playing open and attacking football....aim high and all that. Play the youngsters and communicate more effectively with the supporters etc...etc... It all sounded so promising, but the reality has been more than a little less encouraging. I think Lennon was a tad naive and set himself up. I also think he has struggled to adapt to the harsh realities of top flight football in this country.

I genuinely hope that Mr Atkinson and Co aren't going to make similar miscalculations, because the consequences could be more grave in this context than a manager failing to quite make the grade. The entire future of our club is a stake here, and some reassurance as to where these guys want to take it would be more than welcome.

Agreed. The main problem that any new owner is going to have is managing expectation.

The St.Mirren support are a demanding lot, me included. We want the club to be successful and to be brutally honest if you are totally objective about it we ARE being successful, it just doesn't really feel like it when we seem to have been stuck in a permanent relegation battle for nearly 5 years now !

The cup runs aside, it's been pretty miserable being a Saints fan since we got promoted again, and I think we all hoped that the move to the new stadium, the removal of the debt and the creation of Ralston would signal a new dawn and a move upwards towards at least challenging for the top six every now and again.

That hasn't happened, and we seem to be somewhat stuck in a rut.

The new owners aren't going to come in and start splashing money about, it will be very much the status quo as the club will need to stick to it's budget, no matter how boring and frustrating that may be. That budget is one of the lowest in the SPL.

Of course that in itself doesn't mean we need to be resigned to continually finish in a league position that is on par with our budget, but generally speaking that IS how the league pans out. It's no surprise that Hearts and the Old Firm occupy the top three positions as they have by far and away the biggest of all the budgets in the league.

What we need to do is emulate the likes of Inverness, Kilmarnock and St.Johnstone who are all currently doing much better than we are with similar budgets.