The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[animal]

Ask him yourself, he posts on here.

Since I don't know what name uses that would be difficult. However I am sure we would all be interested in the answer, so why has he not replied to my post yet.

It seems a wee bit of a conflict of interest to be promoting, in your newspaper a financial scheme in which you may end up being a director.

Hope I am wrong.

Edited May 27, 2011 by animal

[animal]

I've asked if we can have a Q&A night at the stadium, the aim will be that on the night people can complete the form there and then.

They should maybe also have a pile of forms at reception in the stadium that folk could drop by and fill in I guess. Only takes 2 mins.

Dear Div,

Any chance you could photocopy all the completed application forms and send them off to the address of my colleague in Nigeria which I will forward to you. I promise not to take any money from the accounts until the CIC scheme is up and running. Please don't worry about the data protection issues and the like. I really am an honest guy.

Edited May 27, 2011 by animal

[TsuMirren]

Dear Div,

Any chance you could photocopy all the completed application forms and send them off to the address of my colleague in Nigeria which I will forward to you. I promise not to take any money from the accounts until the CIC sceme is up and running. Please don't worry about the data protection issues and the like. I really am an honest guy.

You must be near enough at the end of your Issues for Dummies checklist.

[jimdickloyal]

Dear Div,

Any chance you could photocopy all the completed application forms and send them off to the address of my colleague in Nigeria which I will forward to you. I promise not to take any money from the accounts until the CIC sceme is up and running. Please don't worry about the data protection issues and the like. I really am an honest guy.

If your going to be a smartarse then at least try and spell properly.

Away and seek attention elsewhere.

[davidg]

If your going to be a smartarse then at least try and spell properly.

Away and seek attention elsewhere.

Don't you just love the spelling police...................who can't spell

[billyg]

Don't you just love the spelling police

[Guthro]

Your summary of events is correct.

It also means the £100k we were due from Mr Taxman was part of our budget for last year, ergo our budget next year will be £100k lighter as this is a one off rebate.

Of course paying off the old management team was a one off cost too, so perhaps it's swings and roundabouts.

The club run an incredibly tight ship, cashflow problems are common, and the current board have regularly dipped into their own pockets to keep us running smoothly over the last three seasons.

The problem with having no debt is that nobody will lend you any money, so cashflow problems can't be easily overcome.

So here's the obvious question.... Should the CIC go through those same directors who regularly dip into their own pockets will no longer be running the club.

What happens if/when this kind of thing happens again?

What does the CIC do?

[Stuart Dickson]

So here's the obvious question.... Should the CIC go through those same directors who regularly dip into their own pockets will no longer be running the club.

What happens if/when this kind of thing happens again?

What does the CIC do?

It shouldn't be happening is the point. The business of St Mirren Ltd takes in lump sum payments at the start of the season for season ticket sales and the club have unbudgeted for financial boosts in recent years like the CIS Cup Final appearance against r*ngers, and televised cup matches this season. With no real surprise expenses it seems a strange thing to do to factor in a £100000 tax rebate into the annual budget when it's never going to come through before the end of April at the very earliest. That tax rebate should have gone into next years budget, not this years one.

It strikes me as utterly ridiculous that we are talking about a business with a seven figure turnover and yet it's still being run in the same amateurish manner that coaches might run their juvenile clubs.

[TsuMirren]

It shouldn't be happening is the point. The business of St Mirren Ltd takes in lump sum payments at the start of the season for season ticket sales and the club have unbudgeted for financial boosts in recent years like the CIS Cup Final appearance against r*ngers, and televised cup matches this season. With no real surprise expenses it seems a strange thing to do to factor in a £100000 tax rebate into the annual budget when it's never going to come through before the end of April at the very earliest. That tax rebate should have gone into next years budget, not this years one.

It strikes me as utterly ridiculous that we are talking about a business with a seven figure turnover and yet it's still being run in the same amateurish manner that coaches might run their juvenile clubs.

Not entirely fair Stuart.

As you budget things you end up with various spend curves forming the overall spend profile. Likewise, you'll have various income curves forming the overall income profile and it'd be difficult to make sure absolutely every single one goes hand in hand. The fans might also call for a signing or an injury crisis hits, perhaps there needs to be a change in provider or attendances drop off...a Saturday match is moved midweek or we budget pre-fixtures and get a festive away game instead of home. I'm absolutely certain there will be more things there.

To answer Guthro...we'll appreciate just what SG etc have done and then have to deal with it.

[Guthro]

It shouldn't be happening is the point....

No, it shouldn't. But it does. With every business. Budgets change, games get moved or called off, unexpected things happen, players get injured and managers get sacked.

To answer Guthro...we'll appreciate just what SG etc have done and then have to deal with it.

I think most of us do appreciate what the SG and co have done, but what are the CIC going to be able to do about situations like this?

The directors have previously dipped in to their own pockets, are the CIC executive board going to do the same? Or are we going to see more of the same loans being used?

If the CIC does happen, it's decisions like these which will be pivitol in it's success.

Stuff this talk about a fans bar, what happens when decisions like these are needed? What's going to happen then? It's things like this that should be getting debated, instead we're getting dragged down by these petty arguments about nothing.

[TsuMirren]

No, it shouldn't. But it does. With every business. Budgets change, games get moved or called off, unexpected things happen, players get injured and managers get sacked.

I think most of us do appreciate what the SG and co have done, but what are the CIC going to be able to do about situations like this?

The directors have previously dipped in to their own pockets, are the CIC executive board going to do the same? Or are we going to see more of the same loans being used?

If the CIC does happen, it's decisions like these which will be pivitol in it's success.

Stuff this talk about a fans bar, what happens when decisions like these are needed? What's going to happen then? It's things like this that should be getting debated, instead we're getting dragged down by these petty arguments about nothing.

I'm sure they will be debated, though it'd be bad planning to assume anything the size of 100K was coming in or to miss it going out. Could 300 individual members afford to contribute £333 each? I doubt it, but maybe across the board their could be that sort of float provided. Then again, perhaps the group could even sign a player or fund a wage.

What I'd like to see is a channel for the members, or indeed anyone, to contribute totally anonymously...with pledges for through the season...that you could factor in. Members wouldn't make a pledge as they'd understand the consequences, whilst any non-member contribution could be treated as fun to have.

Here's one to chew over though... How do you budget win bonuses?

[Stuart Dickson]

Not entirely fair Stuart.

As you budget things you end up with various spend curves forming the overall spend profile. Likewise, you'll have various income curves forming the overall income profile and it'd be difficult to make sure absolutely every single one goes hand in hand. The fans might also call for a signing or an injury crisis hits, perhaps there needs to be a change in provider or attendances drop off...a Saturday match is moved midweek or we budget pre-fixtures and get a festive away game instead of home. I'm absolutely certain there will be more things there.

Ofcourse - but what do you do when the directors aren't in a financial position to fund short term loans into the club to ease cash flow problems? Most successful businesses have emergency reserves, or at the worst an overdraft facility - St Mirren had neither and the amateurism is put into sharper focus when you understand that a club like St Mirren will take in 20 - 25% of their annual turnover before a season starts, get the welcome boost of a high five figure unbudgeted income from a live TV Cup tie against Aberdeen, and yet still need a six figure payday loan to see them through the last month of the season.

It's not the first time it's happened either. Remember this is the same board that ran out of cash in 2002 six weeks before the end of that season and sent the clubs only full time goalkeeper to one of their rivals on loan whilst trying to fight off relegation to the Scottish Second Division and yet there are still people who would choose the status quo over change

[Stuart Dickson]

Stuff this talk about a fans bar, what happens when decisions like these are needed? What's going to happen then? It's things like this that should be getting debated, instead we're getting dragged down by these petty arguments about nothing.

Totally agree with this part Guthro - what does happen? This has become my main concern with the CIC in recent weeks. It's not Richard Atkinsons fault at all but a look around the prospective electorate and even the prospective candidates sends a bit of a chill down my spine and to be honest that got worse when I started to do a bit more research on the Ebbsfleet model and the forums around it. The club simply has to be run within budget and there is going to be a very definite need to build up some sort of cash reserve that smooths out cash flow problems. That is what the Executive Board is going to be responsible for and any prospective membership is going to have to get their heads around that because any demand for new players is going to have to be funded from an increase in the number of people coming through the turnstyles REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THOSE PEOPLE ARE ST MIRREN FANS OR NOT!

[YulBrynner]

Whoooa pardners, hold them horses - this is a warning.

Hi y’all, Yul here just pulled into town after another week away. Can I just put a coupla cowpokes straight. I am just lil’ ol me - honest injuns. I won’t go into the techie reasons for explaining the way the Magnificent 7 posts are posted. Maybe I don’t know how to use this new fangled elektrikety. But there are reasons.

It’s amazing that when you look back the Magnificent posts and see how many of the questions we raise are answered; the pesky stuff like a top heavy club and no extra dollars for the team. As always the response is limited to attacking me/us rather than a direct answer. Some villagers even have the cheek to claim not to understand them due to my westerneeze. What a load of bunkem. Of course you understand them.

Anyway pardners having returned home to the township I leapt down from the stage to find that ‘The Stranger’, the one who told three meetings that he could go to the bank and just buy OUR CLUB for $2million greenbacks (and that was preferable to spending 5 million of his quaint Scotch poonds after the darned taxman had swiped a share) had arranged to ‘invest’ $100,000 in our club. This does not make the SMISA posse look too darned bright, them having swallowed his tale of INVESTING his OWN cash in SMFC. They believed that because they had put some degree of faith in the Stranger. They were wrong.

Strange from a Stranger that he didn’t arrange to have this cash wired to him from his own account and lend it to the club interest free. Him being dead against putting the club into ‘any kind of debt, so we just thought, let’s have a go’. After all he wants a big fat zero from the club, doesn’t he? Instead he chooses to bring about a loan situation that is, IF he is to be believed, quite unnecessary. He is now the Loan aRanger, which is appropriate as he should be wearing a mask if he pulls off taking over a Premier League Football (remember that?) club in this way.

Then we have not one, but two reports to the Mag7 of seats on the SMFC board being offered as sweeteners to well known supporters, one a pesky reporter who was at the Stranger’s table at the annual Saints shindig last week.

Now I return to find that once gain as a delay is announced - that’s another delay - but the board are being patient. Nope partners, the board are being DESPERATE. Then as if by magic the request for well meaning, villagers who have faith in the Stranger to send in their financial details is also announced, a diversion if ever there was one.

Truly he is a desperado himself. Give the impression of lots happening. Lawdy, the comments on the forums show how this works. Read them back pardners. ‘There’s no going back’,’ it’s happening’, ‘20% more for the team budget, etc. Scarey. The Heraldo newssheet heralds that the deal might go through. There’s lots of mights and maybes in all of this. And guess what, the ‘story’ is written by, ehm, now where did us 7ers see this reporter before? Oh yes at the Stranger’s table at the Shindig. Just co-incidence though?

Fire, smoke… smoke signals, for heaven’s sake (oops sorry a touch of religion crept in there) read them darned puffs.

Next up is the direct debits. Nope wait a cotton pickin minute here. Anyone can see from all of this just how entrenched views are becoming amongst the fans, on forums and in conversation. One forum is even bad mouthing the other now. It’s the human way. Folks around here will just take up tribal sides. The school you went to. The team you support, the street you were brought up in. That’s just a taste of what our Club will become if the CIC was to become a reality. In-fighting, different groupings, no overall agreement, fans who felt they would have a say finding out the world is not flat. Why, as the good book says, there’s none so blind as those who will not see. But it’s worth a punt, for a year, isn’t it? Let’s take a chance. There’s no alternative. Yessiree there damned well is and everyone knows it.

So to Direct debits.

To all who have sent in private financial details to a ‘Stranger’ or his sidekick keep your hand on the trigger. Would you have done so in this way for anyone else? Would you have done so with a company outside of St. Mirren that you don’t know/

Who has access to your personal banking information?

How are they accountable to you?

How secure is your private information?

Where is it being stored?

Has it been requested in accordance with regulatory requirements?

Does 10,000 hours comply with the data protection act?

Were you informed of all of this in advance?

If you cancel what happens to your stored details?

As ever I stand accused alongside my six colleagues of only posing questions. Guilty Sheriff.

If this CIC was about the entire club, not divisive, no prospect of splitting our faithful supporters, no stabbing in the back decent fans both rich and poor who have put in dollars to help the club in the past, would be centred on football (that’s the game we play Stranger) meant real investment to help us compete on the pitch, did not involve a ‘well we’ll see some financial impact in seven to ten years’, maybe, if local heroes were not now concerned for their reputations, if some directors wished they had never gone along with this, if shareholders had been consulted first as they were told they would be by the Stranger himself, if the Stranger knew the first thing about football, ‘I’m a Scotland supporter’, first meeting,’ I don’t know about football’, third meeting, if as he said he had around 400 shares, if he really did have, as he said 400 employees, if he had not chosen to create a debt similar to the type he specifically said he was against, if the Kibble Kids were not showing some signs of cold feet, if he was willing to invest real dollars, if he hadn’t fallen out with SMISA, if he didn’t want to use taxpayers dollars, if he wasn’t asking OUR FANS to sign up to something he wouldn’t, if he would TRANSPARENTLY reveal the investing companies, if he didn’t depend on the confidentiality hoary old chestnut, if……………………. Maybe, I would agree this was the best thing since firewater in the ol saloon.

We’re all on the same side, St. Mirren Football Club Limited. Is he, as you say in ole Scotchland? Aye right.

We may have to call in the Pinkerton, no not Bobby, Agency on this one, only they could get to the bottom of all of this, our fans sure as hell, sorry heaven, haven’t. Now ain’t that the truth.

Be careful Buddies.

Yul and the other Magnificent Buds

[Reynard]

Wherever you have cowboys you have big piles of bullshit.

[Stuart Dickson]

On Pie and Bovril I believe the only comment to that would have been "too long - didn't read"

[TsuMirren]

On Pie and Bovril I believe the only comment to that would have been "too long - didn't read"

I prefer scrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrroll *thud*

[garzo]

Just read the post and accept there are folks that are worried

I am too.

[TsuMirren]

Just read the post and accept there are folks that are worried

I am too.

Yeah, but worried about what though? None of the issues are ever researched, considered or easy to even see what's there. It's like a torrent of waste water flowing in to a treatment works.

[garzo]

Motivation

Sustainability

Priorities

To name 3 major issues and concerns

[ds10]

Be careful Buddies.

Yul and the other Magnificent Buds

Ok. I'm convinced. This CIC is obviously a bad idea.

What's the alternative?

[Drew]

.............

Be careful Buddies.

Yul and the other Magnificent Buds

In amongst this fucking self-indulgent drivel, I suspect you've made at least half a dozen very valid points.

As I say, I suspect this, because I'm unwilling to invest even 5 minutes of my time trawling through your attention-seeking nonsense in order to filter out the salient points.

Drop the pointless alias, and the yee-ha pretentions. Get over your disappointment at being KBd by your local am-dram society for the lead role in Death of a Salesman (his name is Willy, but that doesn't mean you need to behave like a dick) and people might actually take the time to consider your points, many of which might well be worthy of just that.

[TsuMirren]

Motivation

Sustainability

Priorities

To name 3 major issues and concerns

I prefer Manic Street Preachers from those initials, but hey ho!

Motivation for us should be simple, for Richard I suppose it's going to be a lot less obvious to the majority. I can relate to his want to try something, to see a project and believe all the tools are there to do it with. I also understand that, as a model, it could be applied elsewhere and that we could prosper off of the back of that and success will feed success. That's not a reason to get up on RA though, if the model does move elsewhere and RA is driving that then we're here running our own club with members of the community whom I'd hope we'd take on board and trust. Do we doubt ourselves, are we incapable of trust?

Sustainability is, again, very much possible. You can't tell me we need to go in to administration and become a phoenix club in order for our fans to drive this club forward. Are we really so apathetic and stupid that we'd allow that to happen. There's potentially a danger around the corporate side of things, but let's use the space, let's promote the space and give it the same care we would our own front room. If anyone has an idea on what sort of events could go in there...I've got an absolute frigging whopper...then why not put it forward and it'll be taken on. Again, like so many other things, it'll be in our gift. If the corporate members aren't getting what they need, from us, then they'll f**k off. Pretty simple to work out how to stop that.

Priorities is something that will sort iftself out once the CIC members understand what's involved in running a club. That'll take everything from looking at the accounts to reading the minutes for all board meetings through last season. The 3 boards will need to understand their roles, members will need to be realistic and from there everyone can tackle their own preferred route. For me it's about ensuring we stay in the SPL, develop the needs of the corporate members, build the use of the corporate spaces and maximise all other avenues of fundraising...I'm not going to put them in order though.

[uhhu]

Ok. I'm convinced. This CIC is obviously a bad idea.

What's the alternative?

Why do you need an alternative? The club isn't in financial meltdown, we aren't in a position where we need to sell the stadium and move home. We're passed all that.

If you aren't sure about something then don't support it. If the CIC don't get enough support and walk away then we still have a football club to go and support.

I don't understand people wanting to run with this if they aren't 100% fully behind it.

[bud77]

Why do you need an alternative? The club isn't in financial meltdown, we aren't in a position where we need to sell the stadium and move home. We're passed all that.

If you aren't sure about something then don't support it. If the CIC don't get enough support and walk away then we still have a football club to go and support.

I don't understand people wanting to run with this if they aren't 100% fully behind it.

Mmmmmm because the consortium are going to sell their share no matter what and we haven't heard of anyone in Renfrewshire having won the Euromillions.

Unless you happen to have a few milliion in spare change lying around.