10000 Hours Q&A Thread

[spirit of 77]

10000 hours, i have 2 questions.

1 if anyone signs on as a member, falls on hard times and defaults on their £120 pa commitment, will you then call on credit management companies to take action and recover the funds owed?

2 If the model fails to deliver the necessary income required to pay off the loans, then what does "going back to the funders" really mean? Would that be a request for more voluntary contributions or would the members be legally liable for a portion of the debt?

Come to think of it, there is a third question.

3 If public funds are sought then these will be in the gift of governmental and non-governmental organisations, which are usually headed up by former politicians, civil-servants etc. What happens when we default on the payments ? Am i right in thinking that the creditors can then take ownership of the shares and then try to sell them off to recoup their outlay?

[kenbud]

Can I ask a question ......If the 464 members elect a member on to the board and decide they would like to ask for a change of something within the club, and the executive board don’t like the idea can they veto any idea put forward that they feel doesn’t suit them or the club.

From what I remember from RA and the meeting..... The Executive board could only veto budgetary control reasons or legal matters regarding some of the responsibilities of the CiC.

I took that to mean, if the CiC board wanted to reduce season tickets to £100 a seat but couldn’t prove where they would get the short fall from then this would be overruled. On the other hand if the CIC wanted to sack Danny Lennon and could prove that there was enough money to pay off his contract and employ someone else it could and they Executive couldn’t veto it.

The legal aspect I’d imagine would be clauses put in by some of the funders that are being looked at by the CiC.

This is one area that I would like expanded upon and put before us in black and white at the next public meeting.

[spirit of 77]

what percentage of pledges do you expect to be successfully converted into memeberships of th cic? I am assuming that you have conducted some research and identified how many will sign up per hundred pledges

many people seem to assume that everyone who pledges support will automatically become a fully paid-up member, this will not be the case.

[10000hours]

Question:

The CIC intends to use the under-utilised assets of the club to generate extra revenue. Why can't the club do this by itself?

Then more of the money would go directly into the club rather than to pay the debts of the CIC.

Would the CIC be better placed to exploit the under-utilised assets than the club itself?

In theory you are correct, the club could indeed do this itself.

However we believe the CIC is better placed for a few reasons. As an example the cost of fitting out the void will be a 6 figure sum. Now the club could do this but it would need to spend budget that would otherwise be spent on the team to do it, the CIC can do it because via its partners and the creation of a multipurpose space it will be able to get the work done without any cost to the club. In fact the club will then be able to get the benefit of the space for its own larger functions, weddings and christmas parties etc.

However we also believe that becuase of the stucture of the CIC where individuals, communites and businesses gather around the ownership stucture that these groups are more likley to use the facility of the club, and this will benefit the CIC and the club and thus the community that owns the club and the team that is put on the park.

10000hours CIC

[10000hours]

Question:

By recruiting corporate members (and to a certain extent community members) are the not competing with the club for the same pot of money?

In other words, would the businesses that sign up for the CIC not have used the money to directly sponsor the club anyway?

It is of course a danger.

However when we start to tell you about those who are joining as corporate members you will see that all of those so far either have no existing relationship with the club or see this as above and beyond what they already contribute to the club.

10000hours CIC

[Wilbur]

Dear 10,000 hours spokesman,

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere - Wiill the £1.2m (approx) to be borrowed by the CIC be sourced from commercial lenders who would expect their loans to be secured against tangible assets ?

If so, what assets does the CIC own that could be used for this purpose ?

[Drew]

When I last checked the 10000Hours site, the number of individual pledges is looking very healthy. The number of community (21) and corporate organisations (9), however, has remained pretty static for some time now. Is this likely to be an issue as the time approaches where individuals and organisations are being asked to commit financially to the project?

Edited April 25, 2011 by Drew

[Kombi Buddie]

unfortunately, I cannot make the meetings and don't frequent B&W much so apologies of any of my questions have been asked before but the few questions I have are,

Can the CiC Exec board, Veto any decisions made by the elected St Mirren BoD {assuming the CiC is successful in purchasing the 52% majority shareholding}

If in the event of a dividend being paid to CiC members, how does it determined who gets what {working on a basis that folk will subscribe initially but then may cancel their subscription and others may join at a later date}?

If in the event that the CIC subscriptions fall below what is required to repay the loans & the CiC decide to sell it's shareholding, how will that be divied up {considering a similar situation as above}

How many members will make up the CiC Exec Board

Once in control of St Mirren, how many members will make up the Board of St Mirren FC.

many thanks

[10000hours]

I know everyone else on here seems to run a business but I don't and I've been wondering what this means; "Interest rates of 0% to 8% repayable over periods 3 to 10 years across these debts."

I've read it a few times and was thinking about what it means. On the slide there were eight numbers making up the 2,000,000. So it's safe to presume we're taking out around six different loans? Are these all from different lenders or are they all from the same "big company" and we're eligible for lots of different loans rather than getting a one off 1.2 million loan?

There are a number of funds and foundations etc that we are eligible for and that 10000hours is in the process of doing the required due diligence with.

Is each individual loan then associated with its own interest rate and are these flexible depending on how successful we are with the social return from their investment? So if we ticked different criteria for each individual loans and the excel in what they are meant to do is it possible all values of interest will be 0% or are they all fixed at different rates just depending on who we're getting them from?

It is a mixture

And also, "There are some Scottish football clubs which ARE community interest companies, St. Mirren are NOT going to become one."

Which clubs are CIC's already? I was under the impression that we were unique too

We think we will be the first club of its size which while remaining a Ltd company will become majority owned and therefore controlled by a CIC

10000hours CIC

[10000hours]

Another things thats been nagging at me a bit from last night is this, RA said he wanted to do the cic thing while he was still active and could see the results rather than leaving a trust when he was 60 to do something philanthropic. He then said that after St Mirren had settled down and he had done his part, that 10000hours would do similar things with other groups.

From where im looking at it, this then means that 10000hours would have members in it from further afield than just St Mirren. Not a problem in itself, but is there not then a possibility that for talking sake if St Mirren have 300 members and some other group has double that the other group could then use voting power within 10000hours to gain control of the board of the football club?

Is 10000hours purely for the purpose of the aquisition of St Mirren or will it help other groups potentially creating the scenario above?

Also, I wasn't impressed with RA saying he didnt know if the outgoing board listened to him because they believed it or because he "was the only show in town"

10000hours may well go on and do other things, but the St Mirren based members will be the ones in control of the members board there is no dilution risk for the St Mirren/10000hours elected members board because of the involvement of 10000hours in other projects.

Any new projects based around a members concept would have a specific members board related to that project

10000hours CIC

[10000hours]

When I last checked the 10000Hours site, the number of individual pledges is looking very healthy. The number of community (21) and corporate organisations (9), however, has remained pretty static for some time now. Is this likely to be an issue as the time approaches where individuals and organisations are being asked to commit financially to the project?

We have had a few more pledges in the corporate and community categories but we are not putting them online until the organisations/businesses concerned have been spoken to inorder to confirm their understanding of the commitment and decern their expectations of what the groups can expect for the relationship. Understandably the large number of holidays at the moment is slowing this process a bit

10000hours CIC

[Wilbur]

OK, I'll try again.

Dear 10,000 hours spokesman,

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere - Wiill the £1.2m (approx) to be borrowed by the CIC be sourced from commercial lenders who would expect their loans to be secured against tangible assets ?

If so, what assets does the CIC own that could be used for this purpose ?

[10000hours]

Dear 10,000 hours spokesman,

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere - Wiill the £1.2m (approx) to be borrowed by the CIC be sourced from commercial lenders who would expect their loans to be secured against tangible assets ?

If so, what assets does the CIC own that could be used for this purpose ?

None of the lenders would be considered normal commercial lenders.

They exist to fund the sort of Community Interest Company that 10000hours is and the sort of security that commercial lenders normally require is not treated in quite the same way by social lenders. We are dealing with a number of organisations and each is different in how it leaglly relates to the CIC

So unfortunanltly it is not as straight forward a question to answer as you might like.

It is the case that the CIC's main asset (at least to begin with) will be a 52% shareholding in St Mirren FC, so if traditional lenders were involved (WHICH THEY ARE NOT) then this would count as a tangible asset and in theory if it was all not to work out then this could be put on the market and we would just be back exactly where we are today which is that 52% of St Mirren FC is up for sale.

10000hours CIC

[div]

It is the case that the CIC's main asset (at least to begin with) will be a 52% shareholding in St Mirren FC, so if traditional lenders were involved (WHICH THEY ARE NOT) then this would count as a tangible asset and in theory if it was all not to work out then this could be put on the market and we would just be back exactly where we are today which is that 52% of St Mirren FC is up for sale.

10000hours CIC

What would happen in that absolute worst case scenario if a buyer could not be found to buy that 52% shareholding ?

Who would decide who it was sold on to ?

[10000hours]

unfortunately, I cannot make the meetings and don't frequent B&W much so apologies of any of my questions have been asked before but the few questions I have are,

Can the CiC Exec board, Veto any decisions made by the elected St Mirren BoD {assuming the CiC is successful in purchasing the 52% majority shareholding}

If in the event of a dividend being paid to CiC members, how does it determined who gets what {working on a basis that folk will subscribe initially but then may cancel their subscription and others may join at a later date}?

If in the event that the CIC subscriptions fall below what is required to repay the loans & the CiC decide to sell it's shareholding, how will that be divied up {considering a similar situation as above}

How many members will make up the CiC Exec Board

Once in control of St Mirren, how many members will make up the Board of St Mirren FC.

many thanks

We need to clear up some the language you have used first to make sure we distinguish betwen the CIC Exec, the CIC elected and the FC board.

The CIC exec basically only has interest on making sure that the club is run on an at least break even position and on a cash positive operational plan.

The CIC elected controls the voting rights of the 52% and therefore controls the board AGM process for elections to St Mirren FC.

and the Board of Directors of St Mirren FC have a duty of care to St Mirren FC ltd

We would expect that the CIC elected (10 elected) will be chaired by one members from the executive to make up 11, and that a maxiimum of 5 elected members be common to the elected member board and the Ltd company.

This then ensures a resonable flow of the decision making process with basically the Exec doing all the comliance and confirming the budget presented to it by the elected members, the elected members board reflecting the will and desire of the membership and the Ltd Co implementing the will of its main shareholder the CIC while doing all the day to day that needs done within a club.

10000hours

[10000hours]

What would happen in that absolute worst case scenario if a buyer could not be found to buy that 52% shareholding ?

Who would decide who it was sold on to ?

It really does depend on what the circumstance it is that has lead to the 52% being sold.

However the constiution of the club means that the board of St Mirren FC have to approve the selling of shares.

Even today if you want to sell some shares or someone leaves you them in a will it requires a board meeting to authorize the transfer.

[pozbaird]

OK,

Time for me to ask a question, possibly inviting the response "it was answered on Page 12 of that other thread ya daft chubby bearded ginger walloper...." So, that's St Sid's response taken care of in advance, so onto the question...

I understand the role of the board of St Mirren FC under the new structure. I understand the role (and the absolute need for) the CIC executive board. I'm having difficulty getting my head around the precise workings of, and relationship between, the elected CIC board, and the members who elected them. Once candidates have came forward and lobbied for votes, once the elections have come and gone, and the identity of the CIC elected board is known - it's at this point I'm not really getting it. In respect of what decisions the elected CIC board can then actually take, on their own, decided amongst themselves - without consulting the members who voted them in. Does this happen? Does the elected CIC board, having been elected, crack on with taking decisions with no further involvement from the members?

Simply put - once in place, does the elected CIC board then make decisions on matters with:

A. Never having to consult the membership.

B. Always having to consult the membership.

C. Only having to consult the membership on certain matters.

That's my question. Try to resist the obvious response.... Sid. That's you I'm talking to...Ya' dobber.

[St. Sid]

OK,

Time for me to ask a question, possibly inviting the response "it was answered on Page 12 of that other thread ya daft chubby bearded ginger walloper...." So, that's St Sid's response taken care of in advance, so onto the question...

I understand the role of the board of St Mirren FC under the new structure. I understand the role (and the absolute need for) the CIC executive board. I'm having difficulty getting my head around the precise workings of, and relationship between, the elected CIC board, and the members who elected them. Once candidates have came forward and lobbied for votes, once the elections have come and gone, and the identity of the CIC elected board is known - it's at this point I'm not really getting it. In respect of what decisions the elected CIC board can then actually take, on their own, decided amongst themselves - without consulting the members who voted them in. Does this happen? Does the elected CIC board, having been elected, crack on with taking decisions with no further involvement from the members?

Simply put - once in place, does the elected CIC board then make decisions on matters with:

A. Never having to consult the membership.

B. Always having to consult the membership.

C. Only having to consult the membership on certain matters.

That's my question. Try to resist the obvious response.... Sid. That's you I'm talking to...Ya' dobber.

Congratulations on posting your question on the right thread. Lead by example.

[steve_the_saint]

Ok, tried starting a new topic for this but didn't really get the answer I was looking for.....

Will the individual memberships be limited to one per person?

I know there are different types of membership but its a bit of a jump in price from a tenner a month to a eg. one off 3000.

If I felt I could afford 40 or 50 quid a month, could I have 4 or 5 individual memberships and therefore 4 or 5 votes or would I still have one vote and the rest would be considered a donation?

Edited April 27, 2011 by steve_the_saint

[bonzoboys]

10000hours may well go on and do other things, but the St Mirren based members will be the ones in control of the members board there is no dilution risk for the St Mirren/10000hours elected members board because of the involvement of 10000hours in other projects.

Any new projects based around a members concept would have a specific members board related to that project

10000hours CIC

I am slightly confused by the way you talk about 1000 Hours going somewhere. Who owns the whole brand / name "10000hours"? Is 10000hours, name/ brand owned by RA? Is it not simply the company that is buying the 52% St Mirren shares? When you talk of 10000hours going elsewhere do you mean Richard or others going and repeating the process elsewhere, under another name? Sorry to be a bit picky but often the answer is in the detail.

The dilution of the St Mirren membership concerns me should the Executive board, broaden the membership via an expansion in a different direction. (Richard and others sound very positive about the wider Community model expanding) Say we have 400 members buying in thinking it is all about St Mirren purchase and 10000hours expands in other directions within the unmbrella of "10000hours" Wider community users thinking it may be good to go to the bar within the stadioum - wider use, generates more income, so decide on longer opening hours for bar - only side effect non"St Mirren" members. Is there a possibility that a wider membership would have no loyalty to the basic ethos that we all seem to be following at present - an interest in St Mirren.

Thanks.

[spirit of 77]

My questions seem to have been missed in the post bank-holiday rush.

I always aim to be helpful so i've added them once more.

10000 hours, i have 2 questions.

1 if anyone signs on as a member, falls on hard times and defaults on their £120 pa commitment, will you then call on credit management companies to take action and recover the funds owed?

2 If the model fails to deliver the necessary income required to pay off the loans, then what does "going back to the funders" really mean? Would that be a request for more voluntary contributions or would the members be legally liable for a portion of the debt?

Come to think of it, there is a third question.

3 If public funds are sought then these will be in the gift of governmental and non-governmental organisations, which are usually headed up by former politicians, civil-servants etc. What happens when we default on the payments ? Am i right in thinking that the creditors can then take ownership of the shares and then try to sell them off to recoup their outlay?

[Guest somner9]

try asking again

please 10000 hours

if the CiC fails to generate the extra revenue through its extra business activities to meet it's debt repayments and schedule could it (presumably by getting its raft of boards to vote) fill that VOID with existing SMFC revenue streams???

why hasn't the Cic proposal team 10000 hours come out with detailed information telling us the fans of the FOOTBALL club how it will improve the ON-FIELD activity. (please if you can answer then it has to be a costed, specific, timebound response, not a wish list i.e. "maybe in 12 - ???? months, years etc)

if it presents such a unique opportunity to involve a community with a business thats on its doorstep why hasn't RA done it with the Maxi Group???

if in the event it crashes and burns, are RA, KIbbles et al concerned as to the possible reaction to their main businesses?

[10000hours]

My questions seem to have been missed in the post bank-holiday rush.

I always aim to be helpful so i've added them once more.

10000 hours, i have 2 questions.

1 if anyone signs on as a member, falls on hard times and defaults on their £120 pa commitment, will you then call on credit management companies to take action and recover the funds owed?

No

2 If the model fails to deliver the necessary income required to pay off the loans, then what does "going back to the funders" really mean? Would that be a request for more voluntary contributions or would the members be legally liable for a portion of the debt?

The members have no legal liabilty under the CIC model. The funders refered to are not the members but the social investment organisations that put up the capital for the initial purchase.

Come to think of it, there is a third question.

3 If public funds are sought then these will be in the gift of governmental and non-governmental organisations, which are usually headed up by former politicians, civil-servants etc. What happens when we default on the payments ? Am i right in thinking that the creditors can then take ownership of the shares and then try to sell them off to recoup their outlay?

In the absolute worst case senario then should the whole thing fall down, then yes in theory you could just be back at square one with 52% of the shares back up for sale, which is where we are at today.

10000hours

[10000hours]

try asking again

please 10000 hours

if the CiC fails to generate the extra revenue through its extra business activities to meet it's debt repayments and schedule could it (presumably by getting its raft of boards to vote) fill that VOID with existing SMFC revenue streams???

We don't see how St Mirren FC could do this. It is a separate company and the directors have legal responsibilty to that Ltd Company not the CIC, so even if all the boards you refer to wanted to do it we dont see how they could.

why hasn't the Cic proposal team 10000 hours come out with detailed information telling us the fans of the FOOTBALL club how it will improve the ON-FIELD activity. (please if you can answer then it has to be a costed, specific, timebound response, not a wish list i.e. "maybe in 12 - ???? months, years etc)

We believe that we have given in our presentation the facts behind what would need to happen in order for the club player budget to increase by 20%, by the end of the first year of CIC involvement. It is then down to the management team as to how they take this increased budget in order to improve the on field activity.

We are NEVER going to make any unprovable promises, and would far rather that the CIC model under promised but over delivered than the other way around.

Our presentaion and a number of the public and private questions asked there after went into some detail on where this additional money would come from, it was both costed, specific and gave a time scale. If you were not at the meeting please feel free to e-mail at [email protected] and we would be happy to arrange a face to face with you and we can take you through the fine detail of the workings that get us to a 20% increase in our SPL playing budget.

It is up to you if you want to take this offer up.

if it presents such a unique opportunity to involve a community with a business thats on its doorstep why hasn't RA done it with the Maxi Group???

Sorry we dont understand the question

if in the event it crashes and burns, are RA, KIbbles et al concerned as to the possible reaction to their main businesses?

That is why all of those have got to be sure of the model and why we have spent a year in the background checking, re checking and doing the due diligence on this whole proposal, so that it does work and does not "crash and burn"

10000hours

[TsuMirren]

We are NEVER going to make any unprovable promises, and would far rather that the CIC model under promised but over delivered than the other way around.

I know this is meant to be fan question/10000hours answer, but having been there before I can say that the above is exactly how 10000 Hours should be presenting this. It's also good that realism is there and that the business plan isn't built on the back of whataboutery.

Every member who gets involved will need to understand the full picture and sustainability of growth, not just demand 6 figures of investment and expect it to appear.