10000 Hours Q&A Thread

[Vambo57]

I posted the questions below 3 or 4 days ago on the Official site, but now realise it would be better asked here:

Can someone from 10000hours please clarify the points below?

As I understand it, any cash coming in from CIC membership goes to paying off the CIC debt? So any money given by the

fans (either £10pm x 300, or £5pm x 600, or £15 extra on the ST) is our annual debt contribution.

Any cash given over and above that amount will not be going to SMFC, but to pay off the CIC's debt. So, as long as SMFC contribute £36K pa till the debt is paid off, our side of the deal is being honoured.

Surely it should be easy for the club when sending out their yearly reminder to ST holders to include a poll with the various options before deciding on what route to take?

To allow the General Paisley Public to join the CIC, then you must allow them to buy a monthly membership, rather than buy an ST. Maybe both can be offered? and maybe there is the opportunity for SMFC to get more ST holders here...

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but I only see that we - as SMFC - only need contribute £36k pa, so the cheaper the fans contribution the better in my eyes. Or is it in our interest to pay off the CIC's debt ASAP? Am I missing something?

[Vambo57]

It really does depend on what the circumstance it is that has lead to the 52% being sold.

However the constiution of the club means that the board of St Mirren FC have to approve the selling of shares.

Even today if you want to sell some shares or someone leaves you them in a will it requires a board meeting to authorize the transfer.

Wait a minute... I am sure that 10000hours have stated - on more than one occasion, that the controlling shares in SMFC CANNOT BE SOLD WITHOUT THE MAJORITY OF CIC MEMBERS voting for it.

You now seem to be saying that the SMFC BOD will be the sole decision makers in that scenario. Which statement is correct? Or is this the type of thing that can be changed in the constitution at the first members meeting?

Edited May 2, 2011 by Vambo57

[Wilbur]

Does the CIC have to purchase the entire 52% that the selling consortium have put up for sale ? Why not negotiate to buy only 51% or 50.1% ? Taking 50.1% would surely still constitute a controlling interest, ought to reduce the sum borrowed by approx £40k, and would leave the selling consortium with a 1.9% shareholding that would at least add some degree of legitimacy should any of them remain on the SMFC board after the sale has gone through.

[Kombi Buddie]

Dear 10000 hours,

Much focus has been put on the supporters bar that will be developed in the dead space of St Mirren Park and it is well documented as being for CiC members & their guests only.

Has it been considered? and if not, would it not be considered prudent to allow existing shareholders access to the bar too.

thanks for your consideration.

[10000hours]

Wait a minute... I am sure that 10000hours have stated - on more than one occasion, that the controlling shares in SMFC CANNOT BE SOLD WITHOUT THE MAJORITY OF CIC MEMBERS voting for it.

You now seem to be saying that the SMFC BOD will be the sole decision makers in that scenario. Which statement is correct? Or is this the type of thing that can be changed in the constitution at the first members meeting?

Sorry about this but both are actually true.

10000hours could not sell the 52% shares (should it end up owning them) without the permission of the members (the constitiion as you say will specifiy the detail) but also the board of SMFC has to approve the selling of any shares als.

At the moment every board meeting has a section where the company secretary deals with any share transfers, this is just the way that companies work.

10000hours CIC

[Vambo57]

Sorry about this but both are actually true.

10000hours could not sell the 52% shares (should it end up owning them) without the permission of the members (the constitiion as you say will specifiy the detail) but also the board of SMFC has to approve the selling of any shares als.

At the moment every board meeting has a section where the company secretary deals with any share transfers, this is just the way that companies work.

10000hours CIC

Sorry but I am still a bit confused, by the bold bit above, do you mean 'by the permission of the majority of the CIC membership' or do you mean by the majority of the CIC Board members?

Also can you please answer these questions which I already posted:

Quote

As I understand it, any cash coming in from CIC membership goes to paying off the CIC debt? So any money given by the

fans (either £10pm x 300, or £5pm x 600, or £15 extra on the ST) is our annual debt contribution.

Any cash given over and above that amount will not be going to SMFC, but to pay off the CIC's debt. So, as long as SMFC contribute £36K pa till the debt is paid off, our side of the deal is being honoured.

Surely it should be easy for the club when sending out their yearly reminder to ST holders to include a poll with the various options before deciding on what route to take?

To allow the General Paisley Public to join the CIC, then you must allow them to buy a monthly membership, rather than buy an ST. Maybe both can be offered? and maybe there is the opportunity for SMFC to get more ST holders here...

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but I only see that we - as SMFC - only need contribute £36k pa, so the cheaper the fans contribution the better in my eyes. Or is it in our interest to pay off the CIC's debt ASAP? Am I missing something?

[div]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but I only see that we - as SMFC - only need contribute £36k pa, so the cheaper the fans contribution the better in my eyes. Or is it in our interest to pay off the CIC's debt ASAP? Am I missing something?

The CIC "is" the fans. It is effectively the fans who are buying the majority shareholding of the club, the CIC is merely the vehicle they are using to do it with.

"SMFC" won't contribute anything to servicing the CIC debt, the CIC will repay that entirely by itself. It may use St.Mirren assets to help do that (eg using a void space in the main stand as a members bar and function area) but the club doesn't lose revenue from that, and of course stands to gain from it as it will also be able to make use of that area.

Of course the quicker the CIC debt is paid off the better. There is no penalty for paying it off quicker, so the earlier the CIC becomes debt free the less interest it pays on it's borrowing and the more money it will have to invest in and around the football club (if it's members elected board decide that is what they want to do of course )

[ds10]

I have another few questions for you

Q. I work for a large national charity organisation, how might such an organisation benefit from joining the CIC?

Q. Other than pledging support on the website and spreading the word, is there anything else that fans can do to help?

Q. Now that the CIC has managed to recruit sufficient pledges from prospective members, is there anything else that could stop the deal going ahead?

[saintargyll]

could the pitch be utilised in the summer for say bowling.you could have loads of rinks on the pitch which wouldnt damage the soil or the grass thus using an asset to generate money over the summer?

[davidg]

could the pitch be utilised in the summer for say bowling.you could have loads of rinks on the pitch which wouldnt damage the soil or the grass thus using an asset to generate money over the summer?

This would have terrible consequences to the playing surface.

The summer is for recovery, loads of coring, vertidraining and top dressing. The pitch would be in terrible condition come the winter if this work wasn't done.

Bowls are shite anyway

Edited May 7, 2011 by davidg

[spirit of 77]

The CIC "is" the fans. It is effectively the fans who are buying the majority shareholding of the club, the CIC is merely the vehicle they are using to do it with.

"SMFC" won't contribute anything to servicing the CIC debt, the CIC will repay that entirely by itself. It may use St.Mirren assets to help do that (eg using a void space in the main stand as a members bar and function area) but the club doesn't lose revenue from that, and of course stands to gain from it as it will also be able to make use of that area.

Of course the quicker the CIC debt is paid off the better. There is no penalty for paying it off quicker, so the earlier the CIC becomes debt free the less interest it pays on it's borrowing and the more money it will have to invest in and around the football club (if it's members elected board decide that is what they want to do of course )

You are missing a serious point, quite conveniently for the 10000 hours people. That is the fact that any commercial enquiries to the club can, and in my opinion will, be redirected to the CIC by whatever person the majority shareholder puts in charge of day-to-day running of the club. The CIC can then decide how much it diverts to the debt, how much goes into the community projects and how much it returns to the club coffers .

I have a modest budget for events, training, etc of around £100000 per year. I am actively looking at spending as much as possible of that at SMFC by renting the function suite as a venue, however i wont go through with it if i feel any of the surplus is diverted to paying off 10000 hours debt.

Edited May 8, 2011 by spirit of 77

[St. Sid]

You are missing a serious point, quite conveniently for the 10000 hours people. That is the fact that any commercial enquiries to the club can, and in my opinion will, be redirected to the CIC by whatever person the majority shareholder puts in charge of day-to-day running of the club. The CIC can then decide how much it diverts to the debt, how much goes into the community projects and how much it returns to the club coffers .

I have a modest budget for events, training, etc of around £100000 per year. I am actively looking at spending as much as possible of that at SMFC by renting the function suite as a venue, however i wont go through with it if i feel any of the surplus is diverted to paying off 10000 hours debt.

Best to restructure your malconent ramblings into a question in the Q&A thread otherwise it just reads like malcontent ramblings.

[spirit of 77]

Best to restructure your malconent ramblings into a question in the Q&A thread otherwise it just reads like malcontent ramblings.

best to mop up your incontinent dribblings and check which thread you are replying in.

[St. Sid]

best to mop up your incontinent dribblings and check which thread you are replying in.

Its the 10,000 hours Q&A Thread.

[10000hours]

I have another few questions for you

Q. I work for a large national charity organisation, how might such an organisation benefit from joining the CIC?

Each Community members has its own MOU with 10000hours and so each organisation involved has different priorities that it feels can be engaged with by 10000hours. So it really depends on the charity. however as we have over 20 organisations already pledeged i hope you can see that once the organisations have had the conversation with us that they are seeing clear opportunities. So please e-mail your details to [email protected] and we can have a chat

Q. Other than pledging support on the website and spreading the word, is there anything else that fans can do to help?

CIC's are all about enhancing the otherwise untapped skills of the CIC members for the benefit of all concerned. So other than spreading the word, if you feel you have some time and a particular skill of contact base that may be useful at this point or in the future then please get in touch.

Q. Now that the CIC has managed to recruit sufficient pledges from prospective members, is there anything else that could stop the deal going ahead?

Yes. We are basically working on three strands. One is raising the pledges and then converting these into memberships. The second is negotiating with the funders and going through the due diligence processes with them and the third is continuing to work with the consortium during this long process. Any three of thos areas have parts that could fail and make the deal harder.

10000hours CIC

[10000hours]

could the pitch be utilised in the summer for say bowling.you could have loads of rinks on the pitch which wouldnt damage the soil or the grass thus using an asset to generate money over the summer?

First thing on Monday the 16th the summer maintennace routine will start at SMP this involves a Fraise cut of the the picth which means it is not possible to use it until the start of next season for anything.

[10000hours]

You are missing a serious point, quite conveniently for the 10000 hours people. That is the fact that any commercial enquiries to the club can, and in my opinion will, be redirected to the CIC by whatever person the majority shareholder puts in charge of day-to-day running of the club. The CIC can then decide how much it diverts to the debt, how much goes into the community projects and how much it returns to the club coffers .

I have a modest budget for events, training, etc of around £100000 per year. I am actively looking at spending as much as possible of that at SMFC by renting the function suite as a venue, however i wont go through with it if i feel any of the surplus is diverted to paying off 10000 hours debt.

We can garantee you that any money you spend with the club will stay with the club. It would be illegal to move money around from the Ltd Co of the Club to the CIC in the manner you suggest.

We would suggest that you try boooking one of your proposed events at SMP and then you can see exactly what happens, and if it does not ring true then you can come on line and tell everyone about it from the working knowledge of what actually happened.

10000hours CIC

[Stu]

We can garantee you that any money you spend with the club will stay with the club. It would be illegal to move money around from the Ltd Co of the Club to the CIC in the manner you suggest.

We would suggest that you try boooking one of your proposed events at SMP and then you can see exactly what happens, and if it does not ring true then you can come on line and tell everyone about it from the working knowledge of what actually happened.

10000hours CIC

So why is the possibility of a CIC levy on season ticket prices being considered - surely season ticket money is money being spent on a club product and therefore shouldn't leave the club?

[BLF]

So why is the possibility of a CIC levy on season ticket prices being considered - surely season ticket money is money being spent on a club product and therefore shouldn't leave the club?

I think you've misunderstood how it would work.

Effectively it would be an opt in (similar to gift aid) so the ST price remains at the level the club set it at and all of that money goes to the club. However the STH would have the opportunity to tick a box at this point, pay an extra £15/£20 and become a member of the CIC.

[10000hours]

So why is the possibility of a CIC levy on season ticket prices being considered - surely season ticket money is money being spent on a club product and therefore shouldn't leave the club?

The answer BLF gives above is a good answer.

10000hours have never mentioned any "levy" on season ticket prices.

We did not in the original info document some revenue comparisions, but this was noted firstly as an optional and up to the members. It was used mearly to demonsate a potential route to getting more than 300 members at GBP 10 per month but still rasing the same revenue.

Apologies for any confusion the language we used in the document may have caused.

10000hours CIC

[pozbaird]

I think you've misunderstood how it would work.

Effectively it would be an opt in (similar to gift aid) so the ST price remains at the level the club set it at and all of that money goes to the club. However the STH would have the opportunity to tick a box at this point, pay an extra £15/£20 and become a member of the CIC.

I'm feeling already that the Individual - £10pm, Community - £500pa, and Corporate - £10,000pa structure is in danger of becoming diluted and fragmented, before the thing even gets off the ground. It seems that these figures are a bit too fluid for my liking - correct me if I'm wrong (I usually am!), but aside from these three figures, I've also seen bandied around corporate services in lieu of payment. Maybe pay part of the ten grand, and the rest in services... also split memberships at 5 grand each, family memberships, under 16 memberships, possibly a £15 / £20 ST 'top up'.... any others I've missed?

It's maybe just me, but I reckon once you add in the 87 Club option to all the others - it's heading towards the stage where there is no clear membership fee criteria? Almost a case of 'give us what you can?'.

As I say, maybe it's just my imagination.

Edit: Oops. Just realised this is the Q&A thread, and I've gossiped, and not actually asked a question. Hmm.... a bit of body swerving and digging myself out of a hole required methinks....

Q: Is there a danger of the membership fee criteria becoming somewhat fragmented?

Nice one PB, no-one noticed that whataboutery.

Edited May 9, 2011 by pozbaird

[St. Sid]

Q: Is there a danger of the membership fee criteria becoming somewhat fragmented?

Naw.

[alanmurray24]

One bit I dont understand is this Season ticket top -up...........is this a one off £20 fee added on to your season ticket price?

[St. Sid]

One bit I dont understand is this Season ticket top -up...........is this a one off £20 fee added on to your season ticket price?

I think the top up amount would depend on the volume of supporters. The idea being that if all season ticket holders paid a top up fee the cost could be reduced - from memory, cannae be @rsed checking as it is old news.

[bluto]

I think the top up amount would depend on the volume of supporters. The idea being that if all season ticket holders paid a top up fee the cost could be reduced - from memory, cannae be @rsed checking as it is old f**kin unsubstantiated speculation on pie in the sky.

Fixed it for you.