Guest somner9 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 So, you're stating funds should be directed away from the club. Good luck with that one! can't believe i get to say "check the structure how a co-operative runs" before casting stones but to paraphrase, a co-op retuns benefit to its members as well as re-investing in its core activity/activities (i.e. Playing staff budget) as an example the co-operative group turned over £13.7 billion last year, it is set to return £150.2 million to its members!!! ok you wont get rich on that investment, but if its with "SMFC 2011" you will be investing in the football club, not paying direct debits to meet the loan payments on SG's new Jag, or Hyundai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 So, you're stating funds should be directed away from the club. Good luck with that one! plus your football teams would be an integral part of the club, as would all associated community groups, but obviously from the core activity perspective a proper affilitaion scheme would be set up to put the club at the heart of youth football across scotland, with many further opportunities for expanding the network of contacts across the uk and europe. imagine instead of fighting to get the slightest bit of recognition for the work voluntarily undertaken by you and countless others, you really had a say in how it would all be set up the club as the hub, and yes ok with a pub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Somner. I'm asking out of ignorance and interest but would you co-op plan protect you from having to make a bid for all of the shares in the football club, and would the same grants definitely be available given you are talking about a community of just 2000 people (the St Mirren support) And what management structure would you have? I recently watched a tv programme about a chef who set up a community supermarket on a similar basis to what you propose here however in that project - which failed I think - you had to have leaders who would ensure there was stock, that negotiated with suppliers etc and then you had members who were happy just to sweep the floor or man the checkout. If you aren't going to have three boards what kind of structure would you propose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 (edited) Somner. I'm asking out of ignorance and interest but would you co-op plan protect you from having to make a bid for all of the shares in the football club, and would the same grants definitely be available given you are talking about a community of just 2000 people (the St Mirren support) And what management structure would you have? I recently watched a tv programme about a chef who set up a community supermarket on a similar basis to what you propose here however in that project - which failed I think - you had to have leaders who would ensure there was stock, that negotiated with suppliers etc and then you had members who were happy just to sweep the floor or man the checkout. If you aren't going to have three boards what kind of structure would you propose? the plan to take it forward would be agreed by the members, they would have to agree if they bid for all the shares or not? but since many of the shareholders could well want to take up the option of actually having a vote they could elect to leave their shares in the club, and transfer them to shares in the co-operative, they would as i said above have an investment, that could for example be cashed in after year 8 say by which time the membership should be several thousand and able to accomodate without affecting the core activity budget. the members elect the board, the board delegate the mangement to run the club. like any co-op store they are paid employees who can also be members there by investing and sharing to their mutual benefit. so you pay striker "A" £2k a week, but he's also a member so he's investing some of that back you pay sweeper upper £200 a week and he/she can have as much say in the running of the club as stiker "A" or manager "A" etc etc the structure, one board, and the appropriate operational team "chief exec, secretary, commercial manager etc as is really the members decide if any thing is needed between them and the board, the board are volunteers but must have the skill set to function effectively. their is a whole host of training and education availble for people who wish to stand for election to the board of a co-operative. and its for anyone sorry realised didnt ask your question on grants. if you and I wanted to set up a youth football development co-operative that highlighted it would promote itself as all inclusive and offer education on tolerance and inclusion, if you took just the one source! of the scottish parliament they would be more than happy to give you a grant, and want to be seen in as many freakin pphotos and interviews beside you. a co-op starts with one or more Edited April 28, 2011 by somner9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 well at least i had one! over to RA now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 So how many co-ops run football clubs in the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) I really feel for Somner. He's either (a) not all there, (B ) doesn't understand what is going on, (c ) has some sort of agenda, or finally (d) combination of (a), (B ) and (c ). I genuinely do feel sorry for him. Anyone who pretends to have grave concerns about an issue yet does nothing pro-active to ascertain the facts, despite having the direct contact details of ALL individuals involved has to be pitied. Edited May 1, 2011 by civilsaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Repoman Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Can this thread be renamed 'Internet Lawyers R Us'...................? It's quite amazing that people are getting excited about a proposed future for St Mirren FC based on more money coming out their own pockets running alongside grant handouts and loopholes in company law...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) Can this thread be renamed 'Internet Lawyers R Us'...................? It's quite amazing that people are getting excited about a proposed future for St Mirren FC based on more money coming out their own pockets running alongside grant handouts and loopholes in company law...................... Edited June 11, 2011 by reborn saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Well. Well seems that 10000 hors may at last have come to their senses (Having crashed and burned) and are now considering surprise, surprise Good ol' Somner9;s proposal of an IPS (Co-Op) I would be well up for this, firstly it gives everyone who invests a proper say (One Board) and what perhaps 10000 hours haven't yet realised they could be kicked into touch with a show of hands of members of the IPS (well a vote really). There is no protection/luxury of an Executive Board allowed in the constitution. Only problem is with 10000 hours announcing it... well they haven't got much of a track record when it comes to getting a social/community entrrprise off the ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Shameless Bump))) this is the thread all energies should now be concentrated on. or indeed a completely new topic in "General St Mirren" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Somner, obviously I'm not a supporter of the club but I had signed up to 10000hours CIC proposal. The reason was that I was interested in the community element. I want to see senior football clubs in Scotland go down the route of genuinely partnering, sharing, and co-operating with community groups rather than doing what they have to do to tick a box on a McDonalds or Lloyds TSB community sponsorship programme in a bid to pocket money that would be better directed at those who really do have the grassroots of the game at heart. I also think it's the only real business model that can allow a modern day Scottish Club to grow it's attendances and it's public appeal in a sustainable manner over the long term. The CIC programme meant that the community involvement would be protected as they had to be a part of the programme. Having listened to the Well Society proposal and having followed the online information surrounding it, it strikes me that although community involvement is a stated aim there is no protection at all to ensure community involvement. It's simply something for future elected members to consider - which is a bit shite iMO so I would need to see how much protection was offered in a St Mirren proposal to go down a similar road before deciding whether I'd be interested in being a member or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Somner, obviously I'm not a supporter of the club but I had signed up to 10000hours CIC proposal. The reason was that I was interested in the community element. I want to see senior football clubs in Scotland go down the route of genuinely partnering, sharing, and co-operating with community groups rather than doing what they have to do to tick a box on a McDonalds or Lloyds TSB community sponsorship programme in a bid to pocket money that would be better directed at those who really do have the grassroots of the game at heart. I also think it's the only real business model that can allow a modern day Scottish Club to grow it's attendances and it's public appeal in a sustainable manner over the long term. The CIC programme meant that the community involvement would be protected as they had to be a part of the programme. Having listened to the Well Society proposal and having followed the online information surrounding it, it strikes me that although community involvement is a stated aim there is no protection at all to ensure community involvement. It's simply something for future elected members to consider - which is a bit shite iMO so I would need to see how much protection was offered in a St Mirren proposal to go down a similar road before deciding whether I'd be interested in being a member or not. Assuming we would have you! The Well society is only one scenario, FCUM (I know I don't think the abbreviation is unitentional) would be much more the type of thing I would advocate and it would have the community at it's heart, and reason for coming into being. Lots of suggestions and ideas thrown around during the Cic debate would/could become part of SMFC 1877 (St mirren Fans Co-operative). Big point is enshrining it into the constitution, and setting out how community groups gain membership, and gain benefit from being onboard. It's all there to be discussed, and if constituted correctly is alot more protected than the Cic. Also the ability with one member one vote to ensure balance and corrective action is stronger, than an exec board fudging, among three boards where it will take forever to decide what broon sauce we are going with on the pie stalls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Assuming we would have you! The Well society is only one scenario, FCUM (I know I don't think the abbreviation is unitentional) would be much more the type of thing I would advocate and it would have the community at it's heart, and reason for coming into being. Lots of suggestions and ideas thrown around during the Cic debate would/could become part of SMFC 1877 (St mirren Fans Co-operative). Big point is enshrining it into the constitution, and setting out how community groups gain membership, and gain benefit from being onboard. It's all there to be discussed, and if constituted correctly is alot more protected than the Cic. Also the ability with one member one vote to ensure balance and corrective action is stronger, than an exec board fudging, among three boards where it will take forever to decide what broon sauce we are going with on the pie stalls Sounds like you know your stuff in this area so why would you not get involved in trying to make the above happen ? Give Richard a phone, maybe there is something you could bring to the 10000Hours version 2.0 model ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Sounds like you know your stuff in this area so why would you not get involved in trying to make the above happen ? Give Richard a phone, maybe there is something you could bring to the 10000Hours version 2.0 model ? a taxi for 10000 hours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 If you can come up with a better model and make it happen then why not go for it ? No point in sitting on the sidelines telling everyone where they are going wrong if you have the answers that will benefit the club for generations to come ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottd Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Sounds like you know your stuff in this area so why would you not get involved in trying to make the above happen ? Give Richard a phone, maybe there is something you could bring to the 10000Hours version 2.0 model ? The 10000 Hours 'brand' is damaged, possibly beyond repair. Any future CIC style plan should avoid using that name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 The 10000 Hours 'brand' is damaged, possibly beyond repair. Any future CIC style plan should avoid using that name. With £1.3m in approved funding sitting there ready to be drawn down I don't think it's damaged at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottd Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 With £1.3m in approved funding sitting there ready to be drawn down I don't think it's damaged at all. It hasn't delivered what it set out to though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Fras Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 To have got £1.3m lined up in these economic times of Aberdonian borrowing by banks and public bodies...that is not to be sniffed at. The "10,000 Hours" tag was a bad PR move, immediately lining themselves up for a fall, but stripping away all the BS (and there's been plenty), the idea of a ownership scheme that "locks" the main club assets away from predators (unless the board voted against it) is a very, very sensible thing in 2011. The supporter involvement/ownership is also a huge plus, although the "voice" did seem to be a bit diluted on a 3-tier board. Again this is an opportunity to look at restructuring that model, and giving 1,000+ "club members" a genuine "block vote" -type vote in key matters of the club. I'd also like to see kids/family/OAP memberships actively promoted through print/TV/online media over a period of 12-18 months. eg. Got an ageing relative who is a Saints fan ? Right, now he can be a "member" for £5/month. gets everyone involved - what's wrong with that ? As long as the fans do get a good say in how things are run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 It hasn't delivered what it set out to though. Too many people have put too much work into 10000Hours to just throw it all away. The general concept of fan ownership and asset locking the stadium couldn't be better for a club of our size in our priviledged position at the moment of having no real debt and some spanking new assets in the ground and the training HQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottd Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Too many people have put too much work into 10000Hours to just throw it all away. The general concept of fan ownership and asset locking the stadium couldn't be better for a club of our size in our priviledged position at the moment of having no real debt and some spanking new assets in the ground and the training HQ. I fully accept that, no problem at all. Just saying that 10000 Hours will be associated with ultimately failing. In this process 99% was never going to be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 One issue going forward will be 10000 hours involvement in any new/amended scheme they are promoting. Personally it doesn't sit well with me that they (RA etc) see it as their right to sit on the (Any) BoD and assume the role of chief executive/chairman etc etc... That said if they have funding which is still able to be drawn on then probably we should see what they come out with next. A real fan-owned/community run club is by definition owned by fans and run by the community, neither of which 10000 hours can lay claim to being. Just my humble opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 One issue going forward will be 10000 hours involvement in any new/amended scheme they are promoting. Personally it doesn't sit well with me that they (RA etc) see it as their right to sit on the (Any) BoD and assume the role of chief executive/chairman etc etc... That said if they have funding which is still able to be drawn on then probably we should see what they come out with next. A real fan-owned/community run club is by definition owned by fans and run by the community, neither of which 10000 hours can lay claim to being. Just my humble opinion I think you should come along to the meeting next week as you may be pleasantly surprised by the revised proposals... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottd Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I think you should come along to the meeting next week as you may be pleasantly surprised by the revised proposals... Hopefully this isn't more smoke and mirrors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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