Guest somner9 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I think you should come along to the meeting next week as you may be pleasantly surprised by the revised proposals... Or not? let's leave it to the people interested in working with/supporting 10000 hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 A real fan-owned/community run club is by definition owned by fans and run by the community, neither of which 10000 hours can lay claim to being. Just my humble opinion That's a point that we have some agreement on and one that wasn't dealt with well enough in the past. 10000hours are going to have to be a lot more specific in their proposals this time around if they are going to convince us that they have a salient plan. If the meeting is going to be more vagueness and badly formed excuses about why they haven't progressed then I don't think they should waste everyones time. If they have a detailed plan rather than a sales pitch then they might have a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 That's a point that we have some agreement on and one that wasn't dealt with well enough in the past. 10000hours are going to have to be a lot more specific in their proposals this time around if they are going to convince us that they have a salient plan. If the meeting is going to be more vagueness and badly formed excuses about why they haven't progressed then I don't think they should waste everyones time. If they have a detailed plan rather than a sales pitch then they might have a chance. If someone hasn't hijacked Sid's computer, is this not a u-turn of monumental proportions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 If someone hasn't hijacked Sid's computer, is this not a u-turn of monumental proportions? Not at all. I have previously raised similar concerns. The CIC is a great idea; however it was short on detail in terms of what was made available through the document released and the presentations at the meetings. 10000hrs were given the benefit of the doubt through the good faith of the support. I don't think the support will be quite so gracious this time around. There are positives just as there are negatives to be taken from the not insignificant set back of the 99% of the way there actually being just two thirds of the way there. The lack of information supplied will have impacted the "faith" of the pledgers. Plan B needs to be belt and braces rather than a hopeful punt. If the plan is detailed and sensible then the support will back it. If it is more powerpoint and sales-y type answers then they might struggle. The current lack of information would suggest that Plan B is still being cobbled together, which doesn't instill much faith. The positive is that REA has shown some resilience. One of the concerns posed was that it was just an "experiment", a plaything for Richie Rich to toy with. He has had a set back but appears to be prepared to battle on to achieve his vision - a vision shared by the support - to realise a safe and prosperous future for the club. The meeting should not be an appeal to the fans to support an idea. It should be a meeting where they are presented with a detailed plan with no smoke and mirrors, and then asked if they still want REA and the 10000hrs team to lead such a bid. That is not a turn around. That is an appeal for detail, which I think we are entitled to at this stage in the game and with all that has gone on in the past with this regarding lack of communication. The vast majority of fans want this to go ahead; however we need to be clear on its chances of success, the details of what is actually being proposed, how the structure is changing, and if it is not how the structure will work......and the information presented with a level of clarity that even Chic Young could understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I wonder how much the McGeoch "bid" is - with the CIC remaining the preferred bid you'd have to assume it's some way short of £2M. Perhaps a cheeky wee offer of the funding the CIC has (£1.3M) plus the first year's subscription's to the CIC around £200k by my reckoning, say £1.5M for a quick sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Mibbae REA can sell the patent on the match day laundrette idea to make up the slack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Not at all. I have previously raised similar concerns. The CIC is a great idea; however it was short on detail in terms of what was made available through the document released and the presentations at the meetings. 10000hrs were given the benefit of the doubt through the good faith of the support. I don't think the support will be quite so gracious this time around. There are positives just as there are negatives to be taken from the not insignificant set back of the 99% of the way there actually being just two thirds of the way there. The lack of information supplied will have impacted the "faith" of the pledgers. Plan B needs to be belt and braces rather than a hopeful punt. If the plan is detailed and sensible then the support will back it. If it is more powerpoint and sales-y type answers then they might struggle. The current lack of information would suggest that Plan B is still being cobbled together, which doesn't instill much faith. The positive is that REA has shown some resilience. One of the concerns posed was that it was just an "experiment", a plaything for Richie Rich to toy with. He has had a set back but appears to be prepared to battle on to achieve his vision - a vision shared by the support - to realise a safe and prosperous future for the club. The meeting should not be an appeal to the fans to support an idea. It should be a meeting where they are presented with a detailed plan with no smoke and mirrors, and then asked if they still want REA and the 10000hrs team to lead such a bid. That is not a turn around. That is an appeal for detail, which I think we are entitled to at this stage in the game and with all that has gone on in the past with this regarding lack of communication. The vast majority of fans want this to go ahead; however we need to be clear on its chances of success, the details of what is actually being proposed, how the structure is changing, and if it is not how the structure will work......and the information presented with a level of clarity that even Chic Young could understand. OK, Sid, I'm willing to accept this post at face value. I keep repeating this ad nauseam but I'm new to this forum and over the last few weeks it has seemed to me that you weren't prepared to brook anything that was even marginally critical of the CIC. Some of what was going on was bordering on personal abuse and I'm not particularly pointing the finger at you. There's little doubt that CIC/Co-Operative type plan of some sort has the support of a lot of Buddies. Getting almost 900 on board was a creditable performance and I get the feeling it may have been higher if things were handled a bit better. I think Richard Atkinson's 'team' are entitled to be heard again. But what they have to say better be good. They won't get another bite of the cherry. So at the moment let's all stop the 'Is The CIC Dead?' stuff and set aside personal animosities. We all want the best for St.Mirren (apart from Stuart Dickson.) Let's keep an open mind for a bit. Sid, how come you're Mr.Nice Guy at times and then five minutes later you're such a bollocks? I suppose it would be less fun right enough if you were more consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 OK, Sid, I'm willing to accept this post at face value. I keep repeating this ad nauseam but I'm new to this forum and over the last few weeks it has seemed to me that you weren't prepared to brook anything that was even marginally critical of the CIC. Some of what was going on was bordering on personal abuse and I'm not particularly pointing the finger at you. There's little doubt that CIC/Co-Operative type plan of some sort has the support of a lot of Buddies. Getting almost 900 on board was a creditable performance and I get the feeling it may have been higher if things were handled a bit better. I think Richard Atkinson's 'team' are entitled to be heard again. But what they have to say better be good. They won't get another bite of the cherry. So at the moment let's all stop the 'Is The CIC Dead?' stuff and set aside personal animosities. We all want the best for St.Mirren (apart from Stuart Dickson.) Let's keep an open mind for a bit. Sid, how come you're Mr.Nice Guy at times and then five minutes later you're such a bollocks? I suppose it would be less fun right enough if you were more consistent. I'm always Mr Nice Guy.......I just like to helpfully point out when folk like you are being fannies. You will find that I have been supportive of both the KMG bid and the CIC bid. That should every open minded Buddies perspective at the moment. Anyone not of that view is clouded by personal issues and do not have the best interest of the club at heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 OK, Sid, I'm willing to accept this post at face value. I keep repeating this ad nauseam but I'm new to this forum and over the last few weeks it has seemed to me that you weren't prepared to brook anything that was even marginally critical of the CIC. Some of what was going on was bordering on personal abuse and I'm not particularly pointing the finger at you. There's little doubt that CIC/Co-Operative type plan of some sort has the support of a lot of Buddies. Getting almost 900 on board was a creditable performance and I get the feeling it may have been higher if things were handled a bit better. I think Richard Atkinson's 'team' are entitled to be heard again. But what they have to say better be good. They won't get another bite of the cherry. So at the moment let's all stop the 'Is The CIC Dead?' stuff and set aside personal animosities. We all want the best for St.Mirren (apart from Stuart Dickson.) Let's keep an open mind for a bit. Sid, how come you're Mr.Nice Guy at times and then five minutes later you're such a bollocks? I suppose it would be less fun right enough if you were more consistent. Surprised you noticed that! (Not).... Some! say it's down to radioactive contamination in the Cart near where Sid has his "Rat's Lair", others subscribe to the theory he's aff he's biscuit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Hopefully this isn't more smoke and mirrors. Funny that, I don't recall struggling to look through the smoke only to see myself staring back at me during any of the meetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Funny that, I don't recall struggling to look through the smoke only to see myself staring back at me during any of the meetings. That may be....however when challanged you couldn't actually explain who the decision making would work once the CIC was in place....so the sleight of hand and suggestive mind tricks appear to have found their mark. I would also like to declare my interest in bid number 3 where I have been helping the interested party put together the fans "package". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 That may be....however when challanged you couldn't actually explain who the decision making would work once the CIC was in place....so the sleight of hand and suggestive mind tricks appear to have found their mark. I would also like to declare my interest in bid number 3 where I have been helping the interested party put together the fans "package". Right, so when challenged I couldn't describe the basics of the constitution I hadn't seen and whether that would be in the constitution or a side process. I've never seen any CIC processes, how could I possibly comment on how things would work? I've commented on how they might work or how I'd like to see them work. Only the other day I made the basic statement of the CIC needing it's own board to look after it's overall interests, one to look after the overall running of the Saint Mirren based activities and another for the club. The club board will be busy enough without worrying about the CIC running a player of the year night for a sports club, for example, or to decide how the CIC's SMFC based activities should be advertised. Likewise, the SMFC club board and CIC SMFC board will be too busy to go look at an outreach centre, sporting organisation or other organisation who may want to go down the CIC route and be tied in alongside 10000 Hours. So many failed to understand that as they can't see the possibilities of prosperity by assocation, they'd rather everyone was Saint Mirren or not...money on the park or nowhere else. With those three groups in place it then needs guidelines on who can do what and how. Pretty simple premise, but it'll obviously need work to put together and in that time you need interim people in place. The best people being those who've worked around it and brought the vehicle to us so we can let down the tyres, piss in the fuel tank and strip out the parts...sorry, I mean all get on board and enjoy the journey. As for your interest in bid number 3, by my reckoning that's one bid for each of your personalities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Right, so when challenged I couldn't describe the basics of the constitution I hadn't seen and whether that would be in the constitution or a side process. I've never seen any CIC processes, how could I possibly comment on how things would work? I've commented on how they might work or how I'd like to see them work. Only the other day I made the basic statement of the CIC needing it's own board to look after it's overall interests, one to look after the overall running of the Saint Mirren based activities and another for the club. The club board will be busy enough without worrying about the CIC running a player of the year night for a sports club, for example, or to decide how the CIC's SMFC based activities should be advertised. Likewise, the SMFC club board and CIC SMFC board will be too busy to go look at an outreach centre, sporting organisation or other organisation who may want to go down the CIC route and be tied in alongside 10000 Hours. So many failed to understand that as they can't see the possibilities of prosperity by assocation, they'd rather everyone was Saint Mirren or not...money on the park or nowhere else. With those three groups in place it then needs guidelines on who can do what and how. Pretty simple premise, but it'll obviously need work to put together and in that time you need interim people in place. The best people being those who've worked around it and brought the vehicle to us so we can let down the tyres, piss in the fuel tank and strip out the parts...sorry, I mean all get on board and enjoy the journey. As for your interest in bid number 3, by my reckoning that's one bid for each of your personalities. On that basis surely there's several more bids in the offing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I wonder how much the McGeoch "bid" is - with the CIC remaining the preferred bid you'd have to assume it's some way short of £2M. Perhaps a cheeky wee offer of the funding the CIC has (£1.3M) plus the first year's subscription's to the CIC around £200k by my reckoning, say £1.5M for a quick sale. This is pure speculation but I think it might be as much to do with where the money will come from, what it will be secured on and how it will be paid back that is the issue with the KMcG bid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) This is pure speculation but I think it might be as much to do with where the money will come from, what it will be secured on and how it will be paid back that is the issue with the KMcG bid... Fair enough, but REA is on the Saints BoD so he'll know how much the rival bid is. Perhaps now that a significant part of the CIC funding has fallen through it should be time to consider whether £2M is the correct price for what's on offer. It's all very well saying that it's the selling consortium's price but as even SG admitted times are hard IIRC it was September 2009 when the consortium announced their desire to sell their shares - who knows what a realistic price is for St. Mirren currently, maybe it's whatever the CIC have in their back pocket. Edited November 22, 2011 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Fair enough, but REA is on the Saints BoD so he'll know how much the rival bid is. Perhaps now that a significant part of the CIC funding has fallen through it should be time to consider whether £2M is the correct price for what's on offer. It's all very well saying that it's the selling consortium's price but as even SG admitted times are hard IIRC it was September 2009 when the consortium announced their desire to sell their shares - who knows what a realistic price is for St. Mirren currently, maybe it's whatever the CIC have in their back pocket. Completely agree with this, in many ways they have picked an unfortunately bad time to try and sell...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Completely agree with this, in many ways they have picked an unfortunately bad time to try and sell...! It's worth what someone/group will pay for it. If that aint £2m they it's not worth it! Simples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Completely agree with this, in many ways they have picked an unfortunately bad time to try and sell...! Cannae' win them all. They won a watch with the timing of the Tesco deal, when a world banking crisis and a double-dip recession were heading our way, but had stopped off at the services for a lavvy break. Result, and ker-ching. Selling the club has happened at a time when funders / lenders are wearing their Shull masks, and when buying a Scottish football club looks about as attractive as a Davie Dodds / Carlos Tevez love child. You win some, you lose some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Is there a good time to try to sell 52% of a provincial Scottish football club for £2M? I'm not convinced that the timing is the issue. It might have been an issue for 10000Hours in terms of trying to secure funding from public resources, but I suspect that the value attached to the shares is the issue, as opposed ot the timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 It's worth what someone/group will pay for it. If that aint £2m they it's not worth it! Simples Couldn't. Agree. More. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Is there a good time to try to sell 52% of a provincial Scottish football club for £2M? I'm not convinced that the timing is the issue. It might have been an issue for 10000Hours in terms of trying to secure funding from public resources, but I suspect that the value attached to the shares is the issue, as opposed ot the timing. Could be Drew. Maybe the truth is that the asking price AND the timing together have created less than stellar interest in the last two years. Having said that, it could work in our favour too, in that with times being tough, some of the Romanovs, Ridsdales, and Mandaric types have steered well clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Could be Drew. Maybe the truth is that the asking price AND the timing together have created less than stellar interest in the last two years. Having said that, it could work in our favour too, in that with times being tough, some of the Romanovs, Ridsdales, and Mandaric types have steered well clear. None of those guys or indeed their like have any interest in a club like st mirren, there's absolutley nowt to be made out of smfc. they cant flog the land/stadium to anyone other than someone wanting to run it as a stadium, and the training facility is on a lease so only worth a premium to someone wanting a training facility, we've paid hee-haw for the squad so the only moguls interested are...............US! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Romanov is said to want £50m to sell Hearts! Maybe £2m for St Mirren isn't as unreasonable after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 None of those guys or indeed their like have any interest in a club like st mirren, there's absolutley nowt to be made out of smfc. they cant flog the land/stadium to anyone other than someone wanting to run it as a stadium, and the training facility is on a lease so only worth a premium to someone wanting a training facility, we've paid hee-haw for the squad so the only moguls interested are...............US! The club DID receive bids from well-dodgy chancers. Maybe the economic climate put a few others off. We'll never know.... unless SG ends up selling to Vlad's wee cousin fae' Vilnius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Or not? let's leave it to the people interested in working with/supporting 10000 hours So why not go along and pick holes in it ? I am still for the CiC in principle but it would be good if someone like you who knows more about them than I do was to ask the awkward questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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