Combined Notes From Both Public Meetings

[TsuMirren]

I took notes at both meetings for a mate who couldn't attend, thought I'd place them up here. They use the slide pack for reference and I've not counted the front page in the numbering. I hope this help for people who don't want to trawl through numerous threads.

(Quick edit made to remove a comment that relates to a discussion with my mate, makes no sense to a wider audience)

Very good discussion with Stewart Gilmour about the reconstruction vote, doesn't think it'll go through.

He said the club can't survive on a 16 team league, I asked whether indoor winter football has a price from TV and it didn't look like they'd really examined that too much...or that they intend to.

The 14 league is really being scuppered by Aberdeen, Hibs & Hearts...worried about the 6/8 split. Currently the 12th in the SPL gets 720K, 1st in SFL gets 54K. The intention for SPL Championship is for 500K down to 225K with any side relegated topped up to 700K.

r*ngers and c*ltic not against the 14 team league, but the 11-1 voting dictated by them will destroy things. "Removing the OF" would cause it's own issues.

CIC - He also stated the CIC is the best option they've seen. A number of other offers would have used the stadium with the banks, the Italian consortium is indeed the Massone one.

Slide 1:

CIC's have only been around since 2005, Limited company behaviour, Charity Aims & Objectives and can only apply for money the qualify for.

Slide 2:

The circling numbers are the 8 funding figures applied for.

The Club currently breaks even, any regular buyer would either have to pay hefty tax or put a loan against the club. 800K - 1.2 million will be in the form of loans, but it's not from banks and not from organisations who'd look to foreclose. Indeed, Social Returns could see the loans drop to grants proportionately. A Social Return would be proof the CIC have assisted 60 drug addicts for example or 60 jobless..that sort of thing. Part of the funding provision is dependant on the CIC providing X amount of hours of various social assistance ventures. Interest varies from 0 - 8% over 3 - 10 years.

As SMFC are not a PLC there's no need to offer for other shares or even offer the 48% anything, the constitution of the club has always been there for all to see.

Letters for all funding are in place, the security is the 52% shareholding. Worst Case Scenario, real armageddon plague and locusts stuff, is in 3 years the club is up for 800 - 900K. No social lender has ever liquidated a company.

No bank will touch Saints to give them even a 100K overdraft. That's the bit that I think a lot of people just don't get.

Social Return On Investment was also very well explained and sounds very interesting. As an example, Kibble will run the space for the Erskine event and that will see Kibble people given jobs (return 1), the CIC providing a location for this (return 2) and Erskine having somewhere to potentially bring in more funding etc (return 3). All SROI can help with drawing eliminating some loans, so although it's in a debt cycle it's also in a discount cycle.

Slide 4:

2500 Season Ticket Holders

900 Shareholders

300 individual members for a minimum of 1 year, paying 10 a month 12 corporate members for the mimimum of 1 year, paying 10K a year 24 community members for the minimum of 1 year, paying 500 a year

The 10000 Hours site says 21 Community and 9 Corporate, we've actually outdone that although the numbers won't be amended until the due dilligence is complete on each pledgee. For Individuals it's at around 525 just now, no real major international push or TV coverage.

There may be family packages, yet another thing to consider at the first members meeting.

Slide 6:

The roof on the current corporate area is around floor level of the proposed community floor in the newly developed second space...basically same size as corporate and across the landing. This area will also be the Members and guest social bar open pre and post match.

The new area will cost 100K to fit out, the building warrant has already gone in and Kibble have been very "take a punt" over it already. The club will have use for it's own functions, whilst the Members Bar takings will go to the CIC until such time as the costs are amortised. Likewise should the CIC use it for a function then they get the takings.

Slide 7:

As we go on revenue will be brought in without the usually associated overhead. For example, members will naturally use the space instead of Campbell or new staff chasing bookings. Kelburne, Accord, a church and Erskine spring as immediate users for their own and extra activities.

Slide 8:

Some people surprised there's an Executive Board. The 10000hours CIC is where the debt sits, the elected Members Board will still need sign-off on Budgets and significant contracts...no different to how professional adults usually operate. The elected members board can also make up the club board, but not fill, and the 48% will be represented on the club board.

Slide 9:

Wage budget of 1.3 million

52 Events a year would add 7.5%

500 more people per game would add 8% 4000 additional purchases and transactions brings 4.5%

So, they feel 20% could be added to the playing budget...equivalent to about 5 good players or 5 better players.

Extra Notes:

The bar would cost a 6 figure sum, the CIC will trade it until that's amortised. All debts should be paid by 10 years, but again the club is NOT in debt. Additionality effect, you add a company on board they see the facilities and use them. Any problems with debt the CIC renegotiates, won't affect the club ("Eh, I still don't get it blah blah") 1st division drop is in business plan, naturally enough and good. No increase in fees, overhead would have to be shaved. It's hoped the 20% would be reality after year 1.

None of the Community or Corporate pledgees have stated that paying these fees will remove cash that would otherwise have gone to the club. So, in other words, it doesn't look like ad boards or hospitality will suffer.

The funding is staggered, in May we could see a Consortium sign in to go to some sort of shadowing deal whereby the CIC takes over. It has a do by date of August, at which time the board will go and get more than the 2 mill...probably less than they could have...by going back to the other interested parties. At that points Saints fans won't be able to complain or blame anyone except themselves.

There will be a shareholders meeting, then the next public meeting is intended to be a members meeting with early voting.

Edited April 29, 2011 by TsuMirren

[FTOF]

I took notes at both meetings for a mate who couldn't attend, thought I'd place them up here. They use the slide pack for reference and I've not counted the front page in the numbering. I hope this help for people who don't want to trawl through numerous threads.

Very good discussion with Stewart Gilmour about the reconstruction vote, doesn't think it'll go through.

He said the club can't survive on a 16 team league, I asked whether indoor winter football has a price from TV and it didn't look like they'd really examined that too much...or that they intend to.

The 14 league is really being scuppered by Aberdeen, Hibs & Hearts...worried about the 6/8 split. Currently the 12th in the SPL gets 720K, 1st in SFL gets 54K. The intention for SPL Championship is for 500K down to 225K with any side relegated topped up to 700K.

r*ngers and c*ltic not against the 14 team league, but the 11-1 voting dictated by them will destroy things. "Removing the OF" would cause it's own issues.

CIC - He also stated the CIC is the best option they've seen. A number of other offers would have used the stadium with the banks, the Italian consortium is indeed the Massone one.

Slide 1:

CIC's have only been around since 2005, Limited company behaviour, Charity Aims & Objectives and can only apply for money the qualify for.

Slide 2:

The circling numbers are the 8 funding figures applied for.

The Club currently breaks even, any regular buyer would either have to pay hefty tax or put a loan against the club. 800K - 1.2 million will be in the form of loans, but it's not from banks and not from organisations who'd look to foreclose. Indeed, Social Returns could see the loans drop to grants proportionately. A Social Return would be proof the CIC have assisted 60 drug addicts for example or 60 jobless..that sort of thing. Part of the funding provision is dependant on the CIC providing X amount of hours of various social assistance ventures. Interest varies from 0 - 8% over 3 - 10 years.

As SMFC are not a PLC there's no need to offer for other shares or even offer the 48% anything, the constitution of the club has always been there for all to see.

Letters for all funding are in place, the security is the 52% shareholding. Worst Case Scenario, real armageddon plague and locusts stuff, is in 3 years the club is up for 800 - 900K. No social lender has ever liquidated a company.

No bank will touch Saints to give them even a 100K overdraft. That's the bit that I think a lot of people just don't get.

Social Return On Investment was also very well explained and sounds very interesting. As an example, Kibble will run the space for the Erskine event and that will see Kibble people given jobs (return 1), the CIC providing a location for this (return 2) and Erskine having somewhere to potentially bring in more funding etc (return 3). All SROI can help with drawing eliminating some loans, so although it's in a debt cycle it's also in a discount cycle.

Slide 4:

2500 Season Ticket Holders

900 Shareholders

300 individual members for a minimum of 1 year, paying 10 a month 12 corporate members for the mimimum of 1 year, paying 10K a year 24 community members for the minimum of 1 year, paying 500 a year

The 10000 Hours site says 21 Community and 9 Corporate, we've actually outdone that although the numbers won't be amended until the due dilligence is complete on each pledgee. For Individuals it's at around 525 just now, no real major international push or TV coverage.

There may be family packages, yet another thing to consider at the first members meeting.

Slide 6:

The roof on the current corporate area is around floor level of the proposed community floor in the newly developed second space...basically same size as corporate and across the landing. This area will also be the Members and guest social bar open pre and post match.

The new area will cost 100K to fit out, the building warrant has already gone in and Kibble have been very "take a punt" over it already. The club will have use for it's own functions, whilst the Members Bar takings will go to the CIC until such time as the costs are amortised. Likewise should the CIC use it for a function then they get the takings.

Slide 7:

As we go on revenue will be brought in without the usually associated overhead. For example, members will naturally use the space instead of Campbell or new staff chasing bookings. Kelburne, Accord, a church and Erskine spring as immediate users for their own and extra activities.

Slide 8:

Some people surprised there's an Executive Board. The 10000hours CIC is where the debt sits, the elected Members Board will still need sign-off on Budgets and significant contracts...no different to how professional adults usually operate. The elected members board can also make up the club board, but not fill, and the 48% will be represented on the club board.

Slide 9:

Wage budget of 1.3 million

52 Events a year would add 7.5%

500 more people per game would add 8% (thus proving my point about losing OF games, but being able to shave that out across the full calendar) 4000 additional purchases and transactions brings 4.5%

So, they feel 20% could be added to the playing budget...equivalent to about 5 good players or 5 better players.

Extra Notes:

The bar would cost a 6 figure sum, the CIC will trade it until that's amortised. All debts should be paid by 10 years, but again the club is NOT in debt. Additionality effect, you add a company on board they see the facilities and use them. Any problems with debt the CIC renegotiates, won't affect the club ("Eh, I still don't get it blah blah") 1st division drop is in business plan, naturally enough and good. No increase in fees, overhead would have to be shaved. It's hoped the 20% would be reality after year 1.

None of the Community or Corporate pledgees have stated that paying these fees will remove cash that would otherwise have gone to the club. So, in other words, it doesn't look like ad boards or hospitality will suffer.

The funding is staggered, in May we could see a Consortium sign in to go to some sort of shadowing deal whereby the CIC takes over. It has a do by date of August, at which time the board will go and get more than the 2 mill...probably less than they could have...by going back to the other interested parties. At that points Saints fans won't be able to complain or blame anyone except themselves.

There will be a shareholders meeting, then the next public meeting is intended to be a members meeting with early voting.

Cheers for that Tsu.

[TsuMirren]

Cheers for that Tsu.

What, no dot?

[div]

Well done Kenny.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

SG also said that Sky were part of the stumbling block to SPL reconstruction along the lines of a 14, 16 or 18 team set up, and said when it was suggested that the other 10 teams could vote en masse to stand up and oppose the OF that he reckoned Sky have the power to force the EPL to admit the OF to their ranks against their will because the EPL clubs are so heavily in debt that they were dependent on Sky money to service their debts. He also said the game would be a bogey for the rest of scottish football if the OF were ever able to negotiate their own TV deals apart from the other SPL clubs.

[JM1]

Tsumirren, if you don't mind me asking, have you got any interest in campaigning for election to the CIC board should the deal go through?

Just seems to me that you would probably be quite suited to such a role as you both seem to know what you're talking about and what would be required (and what not to do with regards to Ebbsfleet and myfc!) from both individuals and board members alike.

[Sergie's no1 fan]

SG also said that Sky were part of the stumbling block to SPL reconstruction along the lines of a 14, 16 or 18 team set up, and said when it was suggested that the other 10 teams could vote en masse to stand up and oppose the OF that he reckoned Sky have the power to force the EPL to admit the OF to their ranks against their will because the EPL clubs are so heavily in debt that they were dependent on Sky money to service their debts. He also said the game would be a bogey for the rest of scottish football if the OF were ever able to negotiate their own TV deals apart from the other SPL clubs.

Surley if the OF negotiate their own TV deals the other 10 clubs can tell them to fck off? They need us more then we need them.

The games a bogey for the OF when they would have to play each other 38 times a season

[TsuMirren]

Tsumirren, if you don't mind me asking, have you got any interest in campaigning for election to the CIC board should the deal go through?

Just seems to me that you would probably be quite suited to such a role as you both seem to know what you're talking about and what would be required (and what not to do with regards to Ebbsfleet and myfc!) from both individuals and board members alike.

Thank you and yes.

[pozbaird]

Thank you and yes.

Need a graphic designer for your election leaflet design?

Just think of it as networking, and keeping your business in the CIC community.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Surley if the OF negotiate their own TV deals the other 10 clubs can tell them to fck off? They need us more then we need them.

The games a bogey for the OF when they would have to play each other 38 times a season

That suggestion was actually made from the floor last night and got a big reception from most of us here. SG replied in response to the suggestion that while the smaller clubs in the SPL make money out of OF crowds and a bigger TV deal due to the OF being part of the deal, that, as you say, the OF also need the other 8, 10, 12 teams in the SPL to have a league to play in... In his reply SG reckoned that if the other clubs tried booting the OF out the SPL the OF would appeal to UEFA to play in England and that Sky would welcome the prospect of the OF playing in the Championship or EPL and Sky might threaten to pull their TV deal with the EPL and Champions League etc unless UEFA and EPL allowed the OF in. SG also spoke about how Sky have too much power because no one else is putting in anything close to the amount of money Sky invest in EPL and said Sky basically hold all the cards. I think the feeling last night about SG's section was that people were amazed at how bleak things look for the SPL clubs being able to agree any positive changes for the benefit of the top clubs in Scottish football, but nonetheless SG had given the fans a candid flavour of what the negotiations are like and what a lot of the issues and stumbling blocks are... i.e as well as the OF wanting to cream off as much money for themselves and design a league that suits them best you have clubs like Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United not liking the idea of a 14 team league and a split structure which could see them playing in the bottom 8 if they don't do well in the first bit of the season and how their fans wouldn't be happy being seen as a bottom 8 club rather than one of the teams challenging the OF.

[Sergie's no1 fan]

That suggestion was actually made from the floor last night and got a big reception from most of us here. SG replied in response to the suggestion that while the smaller clubs in the SPL make money out of OF crowds and a bigger TV deal due to the OF being part of the deal, that, as you say, the OF also need the other 8, 10, 12 teams in the SPL to have a league to play in... In his reply SG reckoned that if the other clubs tried booting the OF out the SPL the OF would appeal to UEFA to play in England and that Sky would welcome the prospect of the OF playing in the Championship or EPL and Sky might threaten to pull their TV deal with the EPL and Champions League etc unless UEFA and EPL allowed the OF in. SG also spoke about how Sky have too much power because no one else is putting in anything close to the amount of money Sky invest in EPL and said Sky basically hold all the cards. I think the feeling last night about SG's section was that people were amazed at how bleak things look for the SPL clubs being able to agree any positive changes for the benefit of the top clubs in Scottish football, but nonetheless SG had given the fans a candid flavour of what the negotiations are like and what a lot of the issues and stumbling blocks are... i.e as well as the OF wanting to cream off as much money for themselves and design a league that suits them best you have clubs like Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United not liking the idea of a 14 team league and a split structure which could see them playing in the bottom 8 if they don't do well in the first bit of the season and how their fans wouldn't be happy being seen as a bottom 8 club rather than one of the teams challenging the OF.

Cheers for that appreciate it

Theres alot of assumptions being made.Would The OF just walk into the Premiership or Championship that easily? I cant see League One & Two teams being chuffed at that.Also both clubs have caused bother down south in the last few years with frendlies & that cup final.I dont know if they'd be welcomed as much as some of their fans make out.

I reckon it would take 1 or 2 clubs up here to stand up to them and the rest would follow.Sadly we need the likes of Hearts,Aberdeen and United on side but they seem a bit spineless and self indulged.

[Guthro]

Cheers for that appreciate it

Theres alot of assumptions being made.Would The OF just walk into the Premiership or Championship that easily? I cant see League One & Two teams being chuffed at that.Also both clubs have caused bother down south in the last few years with frendlies & that cup final.I dont know if they'd be welcomed as much as some of their fans make out.

If Sky wanted it, the lower league clubs would have to suck it up. The power Sky have, and with the number of lower league clubs in serious money trouble, i reckon Sky would have no problem getting their way. Sky would just need to threaten to pull the plug and all the clubs would bow down

I don't think it will happen any time soon, but i don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility.

[Sergie's no1 fan]

If Sky wanted it, the lower league clubs would have to suck it up. The power Sky have, and with the number of lower league clubs in serious money trouble, i reckon Sky would have no problem getting their way. Sky would just need to threaten to pull the plug and all the clubs would bow down

I don't think it will happen any time soon, but i don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility.

Your right bud .Thats what happens when you suck on the power teet!

[Drew]

Good man Kenny - have a dot

[Kemp]

deleted due to double post.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Kemp

[Kemp]

In his reply SG reckoned that if the other clubs tried booting the OF out the SPL the OF would appeal to UEFA to play in England and that Sky would welcome the prospect of the OF playing in the Championship or EPL and Sky might threaten to pull their TV deal with the EPL and Champions League etc unless UEFA and EPL allowed the OF in.

Unlikely.

EPL and Champions League games are on in every sports bar and hotel and millions of living rooms around the world every week, in Ghana, in Peru, in China, Japan, USA, Mongolia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia....I don't think I've been to any country in the world where people are not glued to Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool etc games.

Anywhere further south than Carlisle and nobody would open their curtains if the bigots were playing in the back garden.

Nobody in England wants them, nobody in Scotland wants them, few outside of the British Isles have even heard of them and I doubt Sky particularly care about them. Hopefully the new chairman of St Mirren will not have this ridiculous and self defeating fear of the bigot brothers.

[Kemp]

deleted due to double post.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Kemp

[Dibbles old paperboy]

SG didn't say he agreed with Sky's position he just said that his guess was that if the other SPL clubs forced the OF out of Scotland they would end up with less TV money than they get now with the OF involved and that Sky would help facilitate the OF entering the EPL by threatening to pull the plug on their deal with the EPL unless they let the OF in.

SG said something like most people at the meeting including himself had Sky Sports subscriptions and were feeding the beast while also complaining Sky had too much say in football and when games were played etc.

It seemed to be his opinion based on his experience of negotiating with the SPL clubs and TV broadcasters that it wouldn't simply be a case of everyone else telling the OF to stop trying to bully them and saying the OF need a league to play in and the Of would suddenly cave in because they were threatened with being turfed out the SPL.

[ds10]

Thanks. Nice summary.

I got the impression that SG said that he thought the indoor winter football wasn't a viable option as there simply weren't enough suitable facilities round the country.

[TsuMirren]

Div,

Can this get pinned?