Fraser G Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 I don't think anyone has a genuine problem with punters deciding that the CiC is not for them. That's fine and it's up to them. I just think the bulk of people find it a bit tedious to hear the same posters regurgitating the same lines over and over again. They have asked their question, been given an answer, and all they do is then ask the exact same question worded marginally differently. Possibly because they don't believe the answer actually answers the question asked? It's tiresome and frankly you can't really blame some folk from getting tense. Not everyone suffers fools gladly. Debate is tiresome? This isn't North Korea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTOF Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Possibly because they don't believe the answer actually answers the question asked? So they ask the same question again? Are they expecting a different answer? They simply come across as attention seeking oafs. They've probably done the CiC more good than bad with their constant whining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Possibly because they don't believe the answer actually answers the question asked? Debate is tiresome? This isn't North Korea! So do you carry on asking the same question ad nauseum until you get an answer you like? This isn't the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 So do you carry on asking the same question ad nauseum until you get an answer you like? This isn't the EU. If you think that's bad now, wait till the clubs being run by committee in consultation with the fans..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingboy Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Do you know what? This is often the problem with the online St Mirren community and I know it only too well from experience. The reality is that some people will never be convinced for whatever reason. They may have a valid concern. They may understand something about the club that others aren't privy to. They must just be ill informed. Or they might just be daft cunts trying to get an argument going. But whatever they are it is good to have an alternative opinion on line, to have the debate, and to not try to bloody hard to shut up the opposition or to force a complete consensus. JM1 you aren't the only one, Bingboy on this thread said much the same thing, but it would be far healthier if you could also respect the opinions of people who are not behind Richard Atkinson and it would be healthier if you could understand that for someone visiting the forum for information it is much, much better if they see the debate, get a proper rounded picture of what is happening and then make up their own minds. It's certainly better than have them visit and see thread after thread of propaganda stating that everyone thinks it's a brilliant idea and us all gushing about Mr Atkinson. FWIW, again, I want to see 10000hours succeed, and I want to see the CIC come to fruition. I've stated my reservation and I've accepted the answer that I didn't want to hear. But it is good to see the alternative opinion and although Somner 9 is guilty of repetition, so are the many posts who back the bid. Stewart I'll respect anyone's opinion as long as they get their facts correct. What we are talking about here is people misrepresenting the situation. You can't have a healthy debate based on inaccurate statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Stewart I'll respect anyone's opinion as long as they get their facts correct. What we are talking about here is people misrepresenting the situation. You can't have a healthy debate based on inaccurate statements. See now if I was being petty I would say I'd respect yours if you could spell my name correctly...but I won't If someone's making inaccurate statements correct them by all means. That's not what I have a problem with....what I don't like is this persistent attempt to either browbeat someone to comply with the majority view or to try and get them to shut up and go away. Only 300 of the St Mirren support are needed to carry this CIC through. There's scope for 4,300 (according to the database figures quoted) to completely disagree, to be ignorant or misinformed and for you still to get your way. There is no need for everyone to toe a party line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingboy Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) See now if I was being petty I would say I'd respect yours if you could spell my name correctly...but I won't If someone's making inaccurate statements correct them by all means. That's not what I have a problem with....what I don't like is this persistent attempt to either browbeat someone to comply with the majority view or to try and get them to shut up and go away. Only 300 of the St Mirren support are needed to carry this CIC through. There's scope for 4,300 (according to the database figures quoted) to completely disagree, to be ignorant or misinformed and for you still to get your way. There is no need for everyone to toe a party line. Stuart This isn't about anyone getting their way. There are probably going to be enough members without winning over the dissenters or the unconvinced for the CIC to go ahead. There is no party line that I know of anyway - I haven't spoken to anyone from 10000 hours on an individual basis, just read the literature, attended a public meeting, and liked what I saw and heard. I have no vested interest in the CIC going ahead, I just believe it is the right option at this point in time for St Mirren FC. The point is some posters are making repeated posts misrepresenting the facts and possibly discouraging others from getting involved. Then there are other people, like spiritof77, who are asking perfectly valid questions, taking heed of the replies and coming up with follow up questions as a result. That's how it should work, not people coming on here asking the same question day after day and refusing to accept the perfectly reasonable responses. That is a long way past tiresome and is in danger of detracting form the real debate that should be taking place, which should be based on the facts that have been presented by the 10000 Hours team. Edited April 30, 2011 by bingboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 I understand the bit about the CIC making money from currently under utilised assets at St. Mirren Park in order to repay the debt. The ground has assets that the club currently doesn't use and without the CIC they probably never would. Atkinson & Co have ideas to generate money and the CIC will be able to raise capital that the club can't. All seems reasonable. The bit that I haven't seen answered yet is what the priority of the people running the club and the CIC (ie the same people, Atkinson & Co) will be? There is surely some conflict of interest here? If someone contacts Atkinson in order to see if the club can host a large money spinning conference for example, which way will it go? Will Atkinson & co decide to put it through the CIC as their firts priority is to repay Gilmour & Co or do they put it through the club? Also, the other thing I don't understand is, what is in it for Mr Atkinson & Co? It seems like a choice between the CIC or the status quo and the status quo is heading nowhere IMO. But these questions still interest me. The board of St Mirren Football Club will have to act in the best interests ofSt Mirren Football Club and th eboard of 10000 hours will have to act in the best interests of 10000 hours. The executive board will oversee the actions of the club and 1000 hours boards, sign of budgets, check any contracts that may have legal implications and complete reports for the funders. I would hope if any members of the executive board were directly approached the response would be along the line sof, there are 2 ways you can do it, you can contact the club directly and they will arrange it and keep all the profit or you can contact 10000 hours and they will arrange it and the profit will go to 1000 hours with a proportion to the club for use of the facilites then it would be up to the people running the conference to state their preference. What's in it for RA, I think he simply wants to prove that CICs can be successful on this sort of scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 If someone contacts Atkinson in order to see if the club can host a large money spinning conference for example, which way will it go? Will Atkinson & co decide to put it through the CIC as their firts priority is to repay Gilmour & Co or do they put it through the club? I see it as working like follows... If a CIC member company, corporate or community, wants to use the space then it would be something of a split with the club getting the rental and the CIC getting bar proceeds. Club events would occur just as before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Stuart This isn't about anyone getting their way. There are probably going to be enough members without winning over the dissenters or the unconvinced for the CIC to go ahead. Yeah I know - I said that. There is no party line that I know of anyway - I haven't spoken to anyone from 10000 hours on an individual basis, just read the literature, attended a public meeting, and liked what I saw and heard. I have no vested interest in the CIC going ahead, I just believe it is the right option at this point in time for St Mirren FC Same here and I'm backing the bid. However there is a party line being formed online and it's quite clear that those who are negative about the deal in anyway are either being ridiculed, mocked or brow beaten by the pack. It's not an uncommon feature of St Mirren forums but it's not a particularly helpful feature either. Debate is healthy. To have both sides aired will allow interested people to see what the perceived pros and cons are and they'll form their own opinion. I don't think I'd be breaking any confidences if I said that Richard Atkinson told me in my phone conversation with him that if the whole thing didn't proceed because of a post on the forum then it probably wasn't a very good idea in the first place. The point is some posters are making repeated posts misrepresenting the facts and possibly discouraging others from getting involved. Yep, possibly. Then again perhaps you and I are being sold one spin on the facts, and they've chosen not to buy the spin. Over the years I'm sure I've been accused by many St Mirren supporters of misrepresenting the facts and of doing damage to St Mirren FC's reputation, however I firmly believe that in many instances I've been proved correct - one in particular that springs to mind was the singing of the line "so f**k the pope and f**k the queen". I posted that I found it even more offensive than some of the sectarian songs emanating from Ibrox and Parkhead. I was ridiculed, rubbished - someone even got a guy from Nil By Mouth to say it wasn't a bigoted song even if it was ill advised. The Official website even banned me from their forum for my views. Yet on the few occasions I've visited St Mirren matches since then I haven't heard the song sung again and I'm told there has been a behavioural change. What's the point I'm making? Well sometimes the maverick in the crowd has a point that should be listened to. Maybe animal or Somner9 will uncover the flaw in the deal that perhaps even Richard Atkinson is missing. Perhaps they won't but there's no harm in tolerating their posts and their comments. Then there are other people, like spiritof77, who are asking perfectly valid questions, taking heed of the replies and coming up with follow up questions as a result. That's how it should work, not people coming on here asking the same question day after day and refusing to accept the perfectly reasonable responses. That is a long way past tiresome and is in danger of detracting form the real debate that should be taking place, which should be based on the facts that have been presented by the 10000 Hours team. Yeah, some people are nice and non confrontational. Big Fras posted in a very eloquent manner about how he showed the plans to some stranger who was sitting at a table in a kids club type place and he'd come back believing the CIC wasn't a sound idea. I'd have liked to have read why he felt that - but Big Fras has gone 9 rounds with Sid by then and it appears he was all punched out and we never got to read what the concern was. Perhaps it was answered as he's been turned around again by a bit of charm from Richard Atkinson in a post on the forum. But it's this clamour to shut down the dissenters that could mean St Mirren proceed into something having ignored an element of danger that someone had spotted but didn't want to say incase he got too many red dots.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 those who are negative about the deal in anyway are either being ridiculed, mocked or brow beaten by the pack. I can see how it seems like that. That said, how would you react to a person who walked out in to the daylight and asked if it was day or not then did the same thing day in and day out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 I can see how it seems like that. That said, how would you react to a person who walked out in to the daylight and asked if it was day or not then did the same thing day in and day out? Personally I'd tell them to get back into the reconstruction talks meeting room with Neil Doncaster and the other 11 SPL Chairmen. I think that for every over-enthusiastic CIC supporter who gets down on any anti-CIC post, there's an anti-CIC poster who really puts the boot in, and seems argumentative for the sake of it. It's even-stevens in my book and is doing the real debate no favours. Incidentally, I think Stuart Dickson had made some excellent posts tonight, never thought I'd hear myself say that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) I can see how it seems like that. That said, how would you react to a person who walked out in to the daylight and asked if it was day or not then did the same thing day in and day out? I'd tell him it's daytime and move on. I suspect we all would if it was a question someone asked us to our face in the street. I would have thought that would be the more likely response than to launch into a tirade at them. Apart from anything else it's less time consuming... Edited April 30, 2011 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingboy Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 What's the point I'm making? Well sometimes the maverick in the crowd has a point that should be listened to. Maybe animal or Somner9 will uncover the flaw in the deal that perhaps even Richard Atkinson is missing. Perhaps they won't but there's no harm in tolerating their posts and their comments. Maybe they will but they haven't as yet and they've had plenty of tries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Fras Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Yeah, some people are nice and non confrontational. Big Fras posted in a very eloquent manner about how he showed the plans to some stranger who was sitting at a table in a kids club type place and he'd come back believing the CIC wasn't a sound idea. I'd have liked to have read why he felt that - but Big Fras has gone 9 rounds with Sid by then and it appears he was all punched out and we never got to read what the concern was. Perhaps it was answered as he's been turned around again by a bit of charm from Richard Atkinson in a post on the forum. Pretty well summarised Stuart. Following a pledge of another kind (to try and keep out of Sid's way), I didn't go into much detail. Some other posters subsequently asked questions about some of the areas of concern, and they were answered well by the TTH folks on the Q&A. My only remaining grumble was about why/how the deal would be pushed through with "the backing of the fans"....yet the target represented about 10% of those who went to games these days. Hardly a working mandate, but I was satisfied by the talk and action of the TTH people that my final concerns were answered. (My thread on this issue was derided as "Pompous & self-important" by Sid....but thankfully the TTH people saw what I was trying to raise as an issue, and answered it well. 'nuff said) My main hope now is that we get as close to 1000 as possible, not at discounted structure. This would be a great achievment, but also give the members a serious voice if things were going awry. The extra funds would come in handy as well. This forum has done a good job in opening up a debate amongst Saints fans for what is a critical decision for the club, and with the exception of the fanatical CIC funa-mental-ists, and the Yul Bryner fruitcakes, the toing/froing of comments has been a healthy and informative debate. Introducing the Q&A section was excellent, especially for the FFFs who cannot attend meetings at SMP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 I think that for every over-enthusiastic CIC supporter who gets down on any anti-CIC post, there's an anti-CIC poster who really puts the boot in, and seems argumentative for the sake of it. It's even-stevens in my book and is doing the real debate no favours. Very well said! I think some of the debate seems to me to be missing the point. Richard Atkinson is NOT telling us how he or the CIC will run St. Mirren. What he is saying is 'Here's a chance for YOU guys to run St. Mirren and here's some ideas on how you can do it' However it's only going to work if we're prepared to seize the opportunity. The CIC idea is a work in progress, it's up to us all to make the most of this chance. If you don't like something about it, then get involved and try and change it. The more people that take the time to contribute the more of a success this is likely to be. This debate is not really about Richard Atkinson and 10000Hours CIC - it's about us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 and what they refuse to answer at 10000 hours is " what happens if your money spinning bar doesn't generate enough to pay the debt"? The "money spinning bar" is not designed to be the sole means of repaying the debt! The debt would be repaid over 10 years through the 4 different types of membership subscriptions and through increased use of facilities at St Mirren Park throughout the week. If the club facilities begin to get used more often for conferences, weddings, funerals, birthday parties, Christmas parties / works Christmas nights out etc then the "money spinning bar" would be open for most of those functions and the CIC team seem confident that they can attract at least 50 such functions a year where the bar would be used and where individuals and companies and community organisations would be hiring hall space at the ground, or even hiring the car park to hold car boot sales, jumble sales etc. This weekend the boat jumble sale are paying over £1k to use he empty club car park for a day... if we got that type of booking once a month for the next ten years at only £1k a time then that repays one tenth of the debt before anyone has bought a drink in the new bar or paid to have a birthday party in the corporate suite. How do St Mirren FC begin making money from the CIC venture? If the CIC are successful in attracting businesses to the ground to use facilities for conferences, or if community groups are around the ground for birthday parties etc there is a decent chance that some of businesses and visitors may think about attending a game or booking corporate matchday packages etc if their initial contact via the CIC is positive. Lets say RA meets the target of the CIC hosting one function (wedding, birthday party, conference) etc a week on top of having community groups like local churches using the facilities every week and over the course of a year around 5000 people visit St Mirren Park on CIC business, is there not a decent chance that a 250-500 of those visitors might decide to come to a game or buy a corporate package or sponsor St Mirren in some way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_the_saint Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Very well said! I think some of the debate seems to me to be missing the point. Richard Atkinson is NOT telling us how he or the CIC will run St. Mirren. What he is saying is 'Here's a chance for YOU guys to run St. Mirren and here's some ideas on how you can do it' However it's only going to work if we're prepared to seize the opportunity. The CIC idea is a work in progress, it's up to us all to make the most of this chance. If you don't like something about it, then get involved and try and change it. The more people that take the time to contribute the more of a success this is likely to be. This debate is not really about Richard Atkinson and 10000Hours CIC - it's about us. It reminds of some trade union mass meetings that ive been to, where people get up to make what they think are valid points that are supported by the rest of the union members - the union are hopeless, good guys have been let go without help from the union, the union are the company's lapdogs etc - only to be shot down by the shop stewards that WE are the union, WE ultimately decide what we accept or don't accept, WE elect the shop stewards - if WE don't like what they're doing then why don't we nominate ourselves and do better job? RA is not the cic - WE are! And we can only make a difference if WE want it to work. And I think the majority of us do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTOF Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) Yep, possibly. Then again perhaps you and I are being sold one spin on the facts, and they've chosen not to buy the spin. Over the years I'm sure I've been accused by many St Mirren supporters of misrepresenting the facts and of doing damage to St Mirren FC's reputation, however I firmly believe that in many instances I've been proved correct - one in particular that springs to mind was the singing of the line "so f**k the pope and f**k the queen". I posted that I found it even more offensive than some of the sectarian songs emanating from Ibrox and Parkhead. I was ridiculed, rubbished - someone even got a guy from Nil By Mouth to say it wasn't a bigoted song even if it was ill advised. The Official website even banned me from their forum for my views. Yet on the few occasions I've visited St Mirren matches since then I haven't heard the song sung again and I'm told there has been a behavioural change. What's the point I'm making? Well sometimes the maverick in the crowd has a point that should be listened to. Maybe animal or Somner9 will uncover the flaw in the deal that perhaps even Richard Atkinson is missing. Perhaps they won't but there's no harm in tolerating their posts and their comments. You were doing so well until you started reminiscing about your paranoid delusions.You behaved like a cock and deserved all you got. That reminds me,isn't it about time you started boasting about.............. Probably best not to go there. Edited May 1, 2011 by FTOF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) The "money spinning bar" is not designed to be the sole means of repaying the debt! The debt would be repaid over 10 years through the 4 different types of membership subscriptions and through increased use of facilities at St Mirren Park throughout the week. If the club facilities begin to get used more often for conferences, weddings, funerals, birthday parties, Christmas parties / works Christmas nights out etc then the "money spinning bar" would be open for most of those functions and the CIC team seem confident that they can attract at least 50 such functions a year where the bar would be used and where individuals and companies and community organisations would be hiring hall space at the ground, or even hiring the car park to hold car boot sales, jumble sales etc. This weekend the boat jumble sale are paying over £1k to use he empty club car park for a day... if we got that type of booking once a month for the next ten years at only £1k a time then that repays one tenth of the debt before anyone has bought a drink in the new bar or paid to have a birthday party in the corporate suite. How do St Mirren FC begin making money from the CIC venture? If the CIC are successful in attracting businesses to the ground to use facilities for conferences, or if community groups are around the ground for birthday parties etc there is a decent chance that some of businesses and visitors may think about attending a game or booking corporate matchday packages etc if their initial contact via the CIC is positive. Lets say RA meets the target of the CIC hosting one function (wedding, birthday party, conference) etc a week on top of having community groups like local churches using the facilities every week and over the course of a year around 5000 people visit St Mirren Park on CIC business, is there not a decent chance that a 250-500 of those visitors might decide to come to a game or buy a corporate package or sponsor St Mirren in some way? appreciate your response, gives a bit of heart that at least some st mirren fans can debate the very existence of the club without the "wee boy" namecalling tactics you can read on this thread. lets let them listen to the sound of their own voice. on subject: i get theres a time frame to repay the debt, and a hope to generate new business other than the bar, however my biggest concern is if at the end of next season there isn't one team more crap than we've been then we go down, and so will gate receipts, attendances, STH, advertising, hospitaltlity, sponsorship, playing squad, backroom team, club employees, TV money and general interest in SMFC etc, (except for us) in that (lets be honest) very likely scenario how will the CiC maintain its debt repayment schedule? because the debt is the only thing that won't drop should we be relegated, say as seems certain a healthy amount sign up to pay their £120 pa, we get relegated and a percentage of the membership drop out (for whatever reason) or don't renew their membershi,p then the remaining members will be in a very difficult position, they will potentially be making decisions about redundancies (peoples livelyhoods) and also decisions about how to keep the debt payments on track with a smaller membership and revenue stream. will you get the same corporate members weighing in £10k when we're off to Kirkcaldy, Dumfries and Dingwall? the community members i would suggest will be in it for the long haul, but given that the club (SMFC) will still be generating money do you think that they would vote to increase their subs when the debt payments fall off? or perhaps agree to a motion that the CiC (52% majority shareholding) suggest to plug the potential shortfall in debt repayment? in that scenario do you think that all the individual members would vote to UP their payments to £240, £500pa???? thats one of my biggest concerns, there is next to no detail available that actually pinpoints the turnover that will be generated by each revenue stream based on a benchmark of the current market place. the figures for new revenue to be generated are as far as i can see are based on "We Could"! that is "We Could get 52 weddings a year, We Could get a couple of hundred pensioners in a week, we could sell more beer than any pub in paisley on match days (around 29 pa) we could......" its aspirational, not factual. an example would be that the current BoD or caterer can make a very good prediction how many pies are needed for the Hamilton game based on STH, online ticket sales and special interest. when we look at what 10000 hours have suggested its not as far as we can see based on any market research. its a laudable hope, bit theres beggar all science behind it. now if you sign your direct debit and at the start of season 2013-13 it is apparent that there was little chance of ever generating the required revunue to service the debt if we dropped down a division, how would you then view the information that was available to you when you had to make your decision to sign up? it is an irresistible opportunity for the ordinary fan to have (lets be honest here too given the three board set up) "a bit of a say" in how the club is run. my other main concern, which again has only been quietly mentioned is "What will this proposal do to improve/maintain/support DL and his team in producing a good product on the park?" i know it ruffles 10000 hours feathers whenever i bring this up but isn't that the bottom line for the overwhelming majority of Saints fans? so far all that has been "Suggested" is that if the bar and other (as yet to be identified, set up, marketed etc) ideas operate at full capacity then it "Might" generate the funds to increase the playing budget by UP to 20%. so if it was actually 20% made available to DL close season, I would be the first in line stuffing my DD down the pants of RA as he gyrated around the lap dancing pole. but its not next season, and perhaps not even for the start of 2012-13. in fact it is purely based on the groundless (We Could make) figures so far made available. as an example if company "A" was considering opening a new local convience store in paisley in the near future. speaking from a position of knowledge on at least that subject, if the director of store ops ran into the project meeting and said "We Could make" £xxxxxx per week if we were as busy as we could be. then even the tea person would prick their ears up and wait for the details of the market research, the store type, the product range, the competition and how we can win their customers over etc etc.... now can anyone say they've had that kind of detail to help them decide if the financial side of this proposal stacks up? has anyone seen or been given a figure of what 10000 hours expect to turnover from Week 1 thru to 52? if not how will the bar etc ever know if its on target, at break even, exceeding target or operating at a loss? i can tell you all the ones without that type of basic business and opertions plan make a loss. i've been involved with the aspirational projects, the ones that your told are "Just the right thing to do" because it's agreat opportunity, and it'll involve so many. and i can tell you very very rarely do they make profit. so how will our club fare if theres no one as bad as Hamilton next season? forgive me for my view, but I enjoy the tickertape, the brass band and schoolchoir opening with the mayor cutting the ribbon as much as anyone, however i look at each week of year one for the actual performance to track the trends, and to see if the gains suggested that marketing, advertising etc "COULD" bring are actually achieved. in a business like football where we all know how perilous our spl existence has been its needs to be "tin tight & packet perfect" every freakin week! the "hope" is usually what we,ve got five minutes from time. sorry just to add re your point on selling the use of the "Club's" assets to generate money for the CiC that may find it way back to the club. in business "Consultants" are often rightly given pelters for that type of scheme, that is: "They borrow your watch, then charge you each time you want to know the time" Edited May 1, 2011 by somner9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraser G Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 So they ask the same question again? Are they expecting a different answer? Well I've asked the same questions a few times now and I have only read one answer - ffrom someone not party to the CIC and whose "answer" didn't actually answer my question! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 appreciate your response, gives a bit of heart that at least some st mirren fans can debate the very existence of the club without the "wee boy" namecalling tactics you can read on this thread. lets let them listen to the sound of their own voice. on subject: i get theres a time frame to repay the debt, and a hope to generate new business other than the bar, however my biggest concern is if at the end of next season there isn't one team more crap than we've been then we go down, and so will gate receipts, attendances, STH, advertising, hospitaltlity, sponsorship, playing squad, backroom team, club employees, TV money and general interest in SMFC etc, (except for us) in that (lets be honest) very likely scenario how will the CiC maintain its debt repayment schedule? because the debt is the only thing that won't drop should we be relegated, say as seems certain a healthy amount sign up to pay their £120 pa, we get relegated and a percentage of the membership drop out (for whatever reason) or don't renew their membershi,p then the remaining members will be in a very difficult position, they will potentially be making decisions about redundancies (peoples livelyhoods) and also decisions about how to keep the debt payments on track with a smaller membership and revenue stream. will you get the same corporate members weighing in £10k when we're off to Kirkcaldy, Dumfries and Dingwall? the community members i would suggest will be in it for the long haul, but given that the club (SMFC) will still be generating money do you think that they would vote to increase their subs when the debt payments fall off? or perhaps agree to a motion that the CiC (52% majority shareholding) suggest to plug the potential shortfall in debt repayment? in that scenario do you think that all the individual members would vote to UP their payments to £240, £500pa???? thats one of my biggest concerns, there is next to no detail available that actually pinpoints the turnover that will be generated by each revenue stream based on a benchmark of the current market place. the figures for new revenue to be generated are as far as i can see are based on "We Could"! that is "We Could get 52 weddings a year, We Could get a couple of hundred pensioners in a week, we could sell more beer than any pub in paisley on match days (around 29 pa) we could......" its aspirational, not factual. an example would be that the current BoD or caterer can make a very good prediction how many pies are needed for the Hamilton game based on STH, online ticket sales and special interest. when we look at what 10000 hours have suggested its not as far as we can see based on any market research. its a laudable hope, bit theres beggar all science behind it. now if you sign your direct debit and at the start of season 2013-13 it is apparent that there was little chance of ever generating the required revunue to service the debt if we dropped down a division, how would you then view the information that was available to you when you had to make your decision to sign up? it is an irresistible opportunity for the ordinary fan to have (lets be honest here too given the three board set up) "a bit of a say" in how the club is run. my other main concern, which again has only been quietly mentioned is "What will this proposal do to improve/maintain/support DL and his team in producing a good product on the park?" i know it ruffles 10000 hours feathers whenever i bring this up but isn't that the bottom line for the overwhelming majority of Saints fans? so far all that has been "Suggested" is that if the bar and other (as yet to be identified, set up, marketed etc) ideas operate at full capacity then it "Might" generate the funds to increase the playing budget by UP to 20%. so if it was actually 20% made available to DL close season, I would be the first in line stuffing my DD down the pants of RA as he gyrated around the lap dancing pole. but its not next season, and perhaps not even for the start of 2012-13. in fact it is purely based on the groundless (We Could make) figures so far made available. as an example if company "A" was considering opening a new local convience store in paisley in the near future. speaking from a position of knowledge on at least that subject, if the director of store ops ran into the project meeting and said "We Could make" £xxxxxx per week if we were as busy as we could be. then even the tea person would prick their ears up and wait for the details of the market research, the store type, the product range, the competition and how we can win their customers over etc etc.... now can anyone say they've had that kind of detail to help them decide if the financial side of this proposal stacks up? has anyone seen or been given a figure of what 10000 hours expect to turnover from Week 1 thru to 52? if not how will the bar etc ever know if its on target, at break even, exceeding target or operating at a loss? i can tell you all the ones without that type of basic business and opertions plan make a loss. i've been involved with the aspirational projects, the ones that your told are "Just the right thing to do" because it's agreat opportunity, and it'll involve so many. and i can tell you very very rarely do they make profit. so how will our club fare if theres no one as bad as Hamilton next season? forgive me for my view, but I enjoy the tickertape, the brass band and schoolchoir opening with the mayor cutting the ribbon as much as anyone, however i look at each week of year one for the actual performance to track the trends, and to see if the gains suggested that marketing, advertising etc "COULD" bring are actually achieved. in a business like football where we all know how perilous our spl existence has been its needs to be "tin tight & packet perfect" every freakin week! the "hope" is usually what we,ve got five minutes from time. sorry just to add re your point on selling the use of the "Club's" assets to generate money for the CiC that may find it way back to the club. in business "Consultants" are often rightly given pelters for that type of scheme, that is: "They borrow your watch, then charge you each time you want to know the time" Richard Atkinson did say if anyone wants to see the business plan then all they have to do is contact him, so why not drop him an e-mail and ask for a copy ? 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Guthro Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 on subject: i get theres a time frame to repay the debt, and a hope to generate new business other than the bar, however my biggest concern is if at the end of next season there isn't one team more crap than we've been then we go down, and so will gate receipts, attendances, STH, advertising, hospitaltlity, sponsorship, playing squad, backroom team, club employees, TV money and general interest in SMFC etc, (except for us)in that (lets be honest) very likely scenario how will the CiC maintain its debt repayment schedule?......... One of your best posts Somner, there are some very good points in there. I'm for the CIC, but you ask very valid questions. Unfortunately some of the CIC is a lot of What if's, both in a positive and negative sense. Personally i don't think a huge number of fans would leave the CIC, but if we drop out of the SPL, i guess there could be some Corporate memberships that may wish to leave the CIC, if the exposure is not as big. And you're right, i haven't seen any Plan B's if that happens. The 20% increase has been explained, again yes, it is What If's, but i don't think it is an unreasonable target. And it won't be for the start of next season, it will take a season or two to get the increase in budget for the manager. Like i say, couple of good questions. Stick them up in the Q&A thread and lets see what response we get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) One of your best posts Somner, there are some very good points in there. I'm for the CIC, but you ask very valid questions. Unfortunately some of the CIC is a lot of What if's, both in a positive and negative sense. Personally i don't think a huge number of fans would leave the CIC, but if we drop out of the SPL, i guess there could be some Corporate memberships that may wish to leave the CIC, if the exposure is not as big. And you're right, i haven't seen any Plan B's if that happens. The 20% increase has been explained, again yes, it is What If's, but i don't think it is an unreasonable target. And it won't be for the start of next season, it will take a season or two to get the increase in budget for the manager. Like i say, couple of good questions. Stick them up in the Q&A thread and lets see what response we get. The reason I feel the CiC is a good thing is because it isn't reliant on our football income. It has very little to do with that side of things and everything to do with utilising the stadium and its facilities. The businesses that decide to go for it won't necessarily be interested in the teams fortunes, they aren't sponsoring the team after all, they are interested in getting something tangible for themselves back. It is all over and above what the football club is doing. Relegation will mean a drop in our football income inevitably. It doesn't necessarily mean that the CiC can't trade successfully and still provide revenue for the club, the ground and facilities will still be there after all. Edited May 1, 2011 by Reynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTOF Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 appreciate your response, gives a bit of heart that at least some st mirren fans can debate the very existence of the club without the "wee boy" namecalling tactics you can read on this thread. lets let them listen to the sound of their own voice. See that's your problem. There's plenty of debate,but if you don't like what you see you ignore it and prefer, it would appear to "listen to the sound of your own voice". Keep it up though, it only does the opposite of what your trying to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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