div Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Indeed, and that is why football clubs need to do more to persuade people that their product is better than Xscape / rugby / basketball / skiing / go ape..... I'm not convinced. But for what it's worth, I see very motivated individuals, such as RA, in the CIC who are trying to do this. I suppose it's a chicken and egg situation. It doesn't help when significant sections of the support have a stereotype of the ideal St Mirren fan and don't easily accept or respect those who don't conform. There's a lot of work still to be done. I don't think there is a sterotype football fan at any club let alone St.Mirren. The only thing we all have in common is a passion for the football team and a desire for it to be successful. Fans come from every social background, every religion, every age group, every race and both sexes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 I don't think there is a sterotype football fan at any club let alone St.Mirren. The only thing we all have in common is a passion for the football team and a desire for it to be successful. Fans come from every social background, every religion, every age group, every race and both sexes. Unfortunately those who should be encouraged to spend their money on SMFC don't feel the same. Hence part of the reason for such small crowds. Let's hope the CIC does what it is intended to do, but some fans' attitudes may have to change to allow this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I don't understand why you can't see the possibility of a relegation collapse pissing people off to the extent that they adopt a 'Fcuk it and fcuk £10 a month' attitude. I honestly cannot fathom why you seem reluctant to accept the danger of it happening. I'm not suggesting all 590 or so pledges will disappear into the night. I agree with your argument here. If it had been going for a year or two I could see the argument that it may not make much difference. However if we get relegated at the exact moment that people are supposed to sign up to start the CIC, I think it may well put a lot of people off. As mentioned above probably won't be everybody , but may well be enough to have a big effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I agree with your argument here. If it had been going for a year or two I could see the argument that it may not make much difference. However if we get relegated at the exact moment that people are supposed to sign up to start the CIC, I think it may well put a lot of people off. As mentioned above probably won't be everybody , but may well be enough to have a big effect. Or you join the CIC and put forward a good argument about what went wrong and what changes are needed at SMFC for future success. I prefer to look at the CIC as a model where I can have a say aboout what happens at the club. Whether my season ticket will be renewed or not is an entirely different matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guthro Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 (edited) Or you join the CIC and put forward a good argument about what went wrong and what changes are needed at SMFC for future success. I prefer to look at the CIC as a model where I can have a say aboout what happens at the club. Whether my season ticket will be renewed or not is an entirely different matter. Yeah. Like sacking the manager.... How's that for a selling point for the CIC Edited May 8, 2011 by Guthro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I agree with your argument here. If it had been going for a year or two I could see the argument that it may not make much difference. However if we get relegated at the exact moment that people are supposed to sign up to start the CIC, I think it may well put a lot of people off. As mentioned above probably won't be everybody , but may well be enough to have a big effect. You've grasped exactly what I was trying to say. The only disagreement I have with Div is where he said in an earlier post that he cannot see what any huge on-field collapse has to do with the ownership of the club. I find that quite astounding. Div won't chuck it, I won't chuck it, many others won't chuck it. Still, sorry Div mate, we'll just need to agree to disagree on how any on-field catastrophic collapse could affect the attitude of many fans in regard to parting with their hard-earned cash for CIC purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 (edited) Just have a read at the latest posts on the feeshal' forum 10000hours discussion thread. I don't think it's unreasonable to sum up the mood of a lot of people by using the phrase 'If we go down, they can shove their CIC'. If we DO manage an on-field fcuk up of such massive proportions, that sentiment will surely (sadly) spread like wildfire. OF COURSE it has something to do with the ownership issue - IMHO obviously. Edited May 8, 2011 by pozbaird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmurray24 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Some of these companies might not be too keen on putting 10 grand into a first division outfit...................just as some fans. Myself, at the moment I will not pledge money if we were to go into 1st, however that may just because of the mood I am in after yesterday. So if this does happen I can see lots of problems for the CiC Surly the 2 million pound cost of the club is for a SPL club, if we are buying out shares of a 1st Division club it will be less????......... I am sure if Mr Loadsamoney was buying the club in 1st it would be less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 If we DO manage an on-field fcuk up of such massive proportions, that sentiment will surely (sadly) spread like wildfire. OF COURSE it has something to do with the ownership issue - IMHO obviously. Without a doubt, Paul. If we get relegated, then those who are interested in the CIC because they have an interest in football, and SMFC more specifically, will be feeling utterly sickened, gutted, devastated etc...etc..., just like everyone else associated with the club. This WILL have an impact upon the plans of the CIC. The timing could not be worse from the perspective of the CIC. It is impossible to be rational, and level-headed in the face of such an eventuality. I felt sick listening to the radio yesterday....physically sick. I cannot begin to imagine how I will feel at 5pm next Saturday if the worst case scenario materialises. I only have how I felt after the Cup Final last season go on, but I reckon this would top that given the broader ramifications. The very last thing I would be thinking about would be the CIC, I'm afraid. Indeed, thinking about it would be likely to leave a bad taste in my mouth. Of course, this would ease somewhat over time, but it must be remembered that a good many people are already massively disaffected with all things Scottish football, so relegation could not simply be taken in isolation (albeit this would be the biggest kick in the nuts imaginable). Cards on the table, I currently have no interest whatsoever in hearing about the CIC. I only care about the next two matches, and the fate of my team. Short-sighted? Very probably, but, for me, football isn't a head business, it's a heart business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit of 77 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Some of these companies might not be too keen on putting 10 grand into a first division outfit...................just as some fans. Myself, at the moment I will not pledge money if we were to go into 1st, however that may just because of the mood I am in after yesterday. So if this does happen I can see lots of problems for the CiC Surly the 2 million pound cost of the club is for a SPL club, if we are buying out shares of a 1st Division club it will be less????......... I am sure if Mr Loadsamoney was buying the club in 1st it would be less. I'm not saying that you personally are guilty of this, but people have to be aware that they are supporting a company that owns shares in a football club when they sign to the CIC and will not be directly supporting the club itself, they will have no direct influence over the business of the club and any indirect influence will be tempered by the views of the exec committee. None of the money gifted to the CIC (I wont say invested since that implies the possibility of a return) will find it's way into the club's coffers. It will go towards what is a pretty massive debt for a company whose only asset will be 52% of a club with no notable assets. If there is a surplus then they have to set some aside for community projects so that they can meet the legislative or regulatory requirements, they will also have to set some aside as a contingency against the possibility of diminishing membership payments. The CIC directors have a principal legal duty, to act in the best interests of the CIC. If that means deciding to divert funds away from SMFC so that they can service the debt becasue of a dip in membership monies then they will do that or must find a way of justifying an alternative decision. The CIC represents a good idea in theory, however the debt it will incur as it takes 52% of shares is massive in comparison to the club's income. Maybe a better solution would be for the CIC to offer to buy 50% of the consortium holding and strike a collective deal with the other shareholders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit of 77 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Some of these companies might not be too keen on putting 10 grand into a first division outfit...................just as some fans. Myself, at the moment I will not pledge money if we were to go into 1st, however that may just because of the mood I am in after yesterday. So if this does happen I can see lots of problems for the CiC Surly the 2 million pound cost of the club is for a SPL club, if we are buying out shares of a 1st Division club it will be less????......... I am sure if Mr Loadsamoney was buying the club in 1st it would be less. I'm not saying that you personally are guilty of this, but people have to be aware that they are supporting a company that owns shares in a football club when they sign to the CIC and will not be directly supporting the club itself, they will have no direct influence over the business of the club and any indirect influence will be tempered by the views of the exec committee. None of the money gifted to the CIC (I wont say invested since that implies the possibility of a return) will find it's way into the club's coffers. It will go towards what is a pretty massive debt for a company whose only asset will be 52% of a club with no notable assets. If there is a surplus then they have to set some aside for community projects so that they can meet the legislative or regulatory requirements, they will also have to set some aside as a contingency against the possibility of diminishing membership payments. The CIC directors have a principal legal duty, to act in the best interests of the CIC. If that means deciding to divert funds away from SMFC so that they can service the debt becasue of a dip in membership monies then they will do that or must find a way of justifying an alternative decision. The CIC represents a good idea in theory, however the debt it will incur as it takes 52% of shares is massive in comparison to the club's income. Maybe a better solution would be for the CIC to offer to buy 50% of the consortium holding and strike a collective deal with the other shareholders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit of 77 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Some of these companies might not be too keen on putting 10 grand into a first division outfit...................just as some fans. Myself, at the moment I will not pledge money if we were to go into 1st, however that may just because of the mood I am in after yesterday. So if this does happen I can see lots of problems for the CiC Surly the 2 million pound cost of the club is for a SPL club, if we are buying out shares of a 1st Division club it will be less????......... I am sure if Mr Loadsamoney was buying the club in 1st it would be less. I'm not saying that you personally are guilty of this, but people have to be aware that they are supporting a company that owns shares in a football club when they sign to the CIC and will not be directly supporting the club itself, they will have no direct influence over the business of the club and any indirect influence will be tempered by the views of the exec committee. None of the money gifted to the CIC (I wont say invested since that implies the possibility of a return) will find it's way into the club's coffers. It will go towards what is a pretty massive debt for a company whose only asset will be 52% of a club with no notable assets. If there is a surplus then they have to set some aside for community projects so that they can meet the legislative or regulatory requirements, they will also have to set some aside as a contingency against the possibility of diminishing membership payments. The CIC directors have a principal legal duty, to act in the best interests of the CIC. If that means deciding to divert funds away from SMFC so that they can service the debt becasue of a dip in membership monies then they will do that or must find a way of justifying an alternative decision. The CIC represents a good idea in theory, however the debt it will incur as it takes 52% of shares is massive in comparison to the club's income. Maybe a better solution would be for the CIC to offer to buy 50% of the consortium holding and strike a collective deal with the other shareholders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I'm not saying that you personally are guilty of this, but people have to be aware that they are supporting a company that owns shares in a football club when they sign to the CIC and will not be directly supporting the club itself, they will have no direct influence over the business of the club and any indirect influence will be tempered by the views of the exec committee. None of the money gifted to the CIC (I wont say invested since that implies the possibility of a return) will find it's way into the club's coffers. It will go towards what is a pretty massive debt for a company whose only asset will be 52% of a club with no notable assets. If there is a surplus then they have to set some aside for community projects so that they can meet the legislative or regulatory requirements, they will also have to set some aside as a contingency against the possibility of diminishing membership payments. The CIC directors have a principal legal duty, to act in the best interests of the CIC. If that means deciding to divert funds away from SMFC so that they can service the debt becasue of a dip in membership monies then they will do that or must find a way of justifying an alternative decision. The CIC represents a good idea in theory, however the debt it will incur as it takes 52% of shares is massive in comparison to the club's income. Maybe a better solution would be for the CIC to offer to buy 50% of the consortium holding and strike a collective deal with the other shareholders. ....remarkable that you still don't understand the CIC model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit of 77 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 ....remarkable that you still don't understand the CIC model. I havent researched it and wouldnt pretend to, however i do understand a little (only a little) about company law and director's responsibilities. You need to work on your dickophile tendencies, they are dominating your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I havent researched it and wouldnt pretend to, however i do understand a little (only a little) about company law and director's responsibilities. You need to work on your dickophile tendencies, they are dominating your life. St Mirren certainly plays a significant part in my life as it does my children's. Quite proud of that actually. RA has proposed something very special for our club and a lot of other clubs are looking on very jealous of the position we are in and the direction we are taking. RA has already brought new sponsors into the club - for that alone he merits some level of respect from supporters. I do think that a lot of St Mirren's boardroom sausage roll thief higners on's noses are a bit out of joint at the moment. Those will be the jokers that sit in hospitality for f"k aw or get free tickets in their role as c"ntcillors. f"k the lot of them, they should be paying like the rest of us. I'm a rank and file supporter. I look forward to the impending day when bus conveners, SMiSA, Supras, etc can go to the board members that they elect and get listened to...or even better when one or more of those fellow fans are on the Board. St Mirren has been the toy of a small closed committee for far too long and supporting the club has been a blind leap of faith for the majority of supporters. We have the chance to change that. One thing I would like to see is the membership made more inclusive. Even though it is just £10 a month, there will be some supporters that won't be able to chip in and get their vote. I think SMiSA dealt with that issue and once we are established we should work to get all fans a say in the running of the club. I am 100% certain that there will be mechanism in place to ensure as much information is disseminated and more importantly that feedback is sought and acted upon. Already we have seen more information and consultation that any rank and file shareholders have been presented. And yet despite being presented with all of this information and the opportunity to attend umpteen meetings or have one to one meetings with the proposers malcontents like you are still trying to pedal your dissenting ill-informed bile. That being said I am 100% certain that you will sign up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit of 77 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 St Mirren certainly plays a significant part in my life as it does my children's. Quite proud of that actually. RA has proposed something very special for our club and a lot of other clubs are looking on very jealous of the position we are in and the direction we are taking. RA has already brought new sponsors into the club - for that alone he merits some level of respect from supporters. I do think that a lot of St Mirren's boardroom sausage roll thief higners on's noses are a bit out of joint at the moment. Those will be the jokers that sit in hospitality for f"k aw or get free tickets in their role as c"ntcillors. f"k the lot of them, they should be paying like the rest of us. I'm a rank and file supporter. I look forward to the impending day when bus conveners, SMiSA, Supras, etc can go to the board members that they elect and get listened to...or even better when one or more of those fellow fans are on the Board. St Mirren has been the toy of a small closed committee for far too long and supporting the club has been a blind leap of faith for the majority of supporters. We have the chance to change that. One thing I would like to see is the membership made more inclusive. Even though it is just £10 a month, there will be some supporters that won't be able to chip in and get their vote. I think SMiSA dealt with that issue and once we are established we should work to get all fans a say in the running of the club. I am 100% certain that there will be mechanism in place to ensure as much information is disseminated and more importantly that feedback is sought and acted upon. Already we have seen more information and consultation that any rank and file shareholders have been presented. And yet despite being presented with all of this information and the opportunity to attend umpteen meetings or have one to one meetings with the proposers malcontents like you are still trying to pedal your dissenting ill-informed bile. That being said I am 100% certain that you will sign up. Umpteen meetings? and you call me ill-informed. i would have thought that your wealth of business acumen would have left you in the position to be able to commit £10000, combined with your love of St Mirren and your enthusiasm for the 10000 hours then you are surely one of the corporate members? Then again, there will probably be a requirement for corpies to only enter into the online debate under the 10000 hours banner. So we've ruled out that option. this leaves us the option that you are simply an online fantasist who is on a quest to build your own lunchtime legend by being controversial in a way that you would never dare in real life Stand up and be counted, Stuart Dickson. nah, come to think of it, you cant be him. He makes more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Umpteen meetings? and you call me ill-informed. i would have thought that your wealth of business acumen would have left you in the position to be able to commit £10000, combined with your love of St Mirren and your enthusiasm for the 10000 hours then you are surely one of the corporate members? Then again, there will probably be a requirement for corpies to only enter into the online debate under the 10000 hours banner. So we've ruled out that option. this leaves us the option that you are simply an online fantasist who is on a quest to build your own lunchtime legend by being controversial in a way that you would never dare in real life Stand up and be counted, Stuart Dickson. nah, come to think of it, you cant be him. He makes more sense. Aw diddums....at least I have enough acumen to know what thread I am posting on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Fair enough. We all make life choices. If we get relegated and every supporter took the same view as the above however there would be no need for a CIC anyway, as there would be no club for it to own. This is nonsense. We have been relegated before and came back up. With the CIC scheme most of any available money will be used to pay the LOANS not improve the team so we will be stuck in the 1st (or 2nd) division. If we are relegated the £10 a month payments will reduce. It is very foolish to ignore this fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 This is nonsense. We have been relegated before and came back up. With the CIC scheme most of any available money will be used to pay the LOANS not improve the team so we will be stuck in the 1st (or 2nd) division. If we are relegated the £10 a month payments will reduce. It is very foolish to ignore this fact. Nonsense ? You clearly didn't bother to read the post I was replying to, which was nothing to do with the CIC. The poster I replied to said if we got relegated he wouldn't bother renewing his season ticket and wouldn't bother going to any games. My point was that if everyone took that view then we'd have no club left. CIC or no CIC. It's spoilt brat old firm like behaviour that says we must be successful at all times or else I'll take my ball and go home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Nonsense ? You clearly didn't bother to read the post I was replying to, which was nothing to do with the CIC. The poster I replied to said if we got relegated he wouldn't bother renewing his season ticket and wouldn't bother going to any games. My point was that if everyone took that view then we'd have no club left. CIC or no CIC. It's spoilt brat old firm like behaviour that says we must be successful at all times or else I'll take my ball and go home. Animal doesn't know what day of the week it is, just ignore him. Regarding the bits in bold, I don't think I ever said I wouldn't attend any games, I only said I wouldn't renew my season ticket. If you think either situation is "spoilt brat" behaviour then that is just another example of what I was talking about last night, potential customers not being accepted by sections of the support. You should never burn bridges in business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Animal doesn't know what day of the week it is, just ignore him. Regarding the bits in bold, I don't think I ever said I wouldn't attend any games, I only said I wouldn't renew my season ticket. If you think either situation is "spoilt brat" behaviour then that is just another example of what I was talking about last night, potential customers not being accepted by sections of the support. You should never burn bridges in business. Why would you buy a season ticket to watch St.Mirren in the SPL but not in the first division ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Why would you buy a season ticket to watch St.Mirren in the SPL but not in the first division ? Because I have no desire to watch 18 games of 1st division football. It doesn't make me any less of a potential customer though. Like you said previously, "everyone makes life choices." But for sections of the support to then insult people who make such choices is not conducive to increasing long term fan base. Every paying customer should be welcome, in the hope that they decide to return on a more regular basis. The club relies on an awful lot more people than just the "die hard" fans, it's time people realised that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Because I have no desire to watch 18 games of 1st division football. It doesn't make me any less of a potential customer though. Like you said previously, "everyone makes life choices." But for sections of the support to then insult people who make such choices is not conducive to increasing long term fan base. Every paying customer should be welcome, in the hope that they decide to return on a more regular basis. The club relies on an awful lot more people than just the "die hard" fans, it's time people realised that. Fair enough, that is indeed your choice. The club does rely on a lot more people than just the die-hards, that is true, however it is equally true to say that without the die-hards there wouldn't be a club for the floating fans to support whenever the mood takes them. Supporting a club is about doing just that, not walking away when things get tough. You sound like you want a medal and a big hug before you'll consider buying a season ticket. I've no intention of giving you either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 In any other business context having a season ticket would be seen as making you a mug rather than some kind of "superfan". Think about it, pre payment meter customers are massively over charged for the energy they use. Pre Payment mobile phones will always give you fewer phone calls, text messages or data downloads than those on a contract. In a business context why would a company feel the need to keep you happy when they already have your money? In a business context are they more likely to spend money attracting new customers, or on keeping their existing customers happy? Being a season ticket holder isn't a badge of honour. It just means you're a more naive and gullible consumer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 You sound like you want a medal and a big hug before you'll consider buying a season ticket. I've no intention of giving you either Uh, go on. Anyway your services won't be required becuause we'll still be in the SPL next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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