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I would doubt very much if £500 gave unlimited use of facilities - if it did we would be overrun with organisations signing up. I run a group and we pay £20 a night for 2.5 hrs use of a small hall. That is cheap. However over the year that equates to 50 weeks times £20 = £1,000 for my group. I have sometimes wanted to book a Saturday or Sunday during the day for an event but simply cannot afford the huge increase in day costs. I doubt the Church will be getting full use for £500 per annum. I would guess it provides a discount on rental and preference for bookings. If it does give unlimited access then I will transfer my group from Ayrshire to Paisley!

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I would doubt very much if £500 gave unlimited use of facilities - if it did we would be overrun with organisations signing up. I run a group and we pay £20 a night for 2.5 hrs use of a small hall. That is cheap. However over the year that equates to 50 weeks times £20 = £1,000 for my group. I have sometimes wanted to book a Saturday or Sunday during the day for an event but simply cannot afford the huge increase in day costs. I doubt the Church will be getting full use for £500 per annum. I would guess it provides a discount on rental and preference for bookings. If it does give unlimited access then I will transfer my group from Ayrshire to Paisley!

Sonny, we're £8 for 2 hours in the evening for a large gym hall in a Secondary School in North Lanarkshire for our football training. That would equate to £400 over the course of year if we used it like the church group plan to use Greenhill Road. I suppose it depends what the going rates would be in the Paisley area, however I would say again I don't think it would be that unusual for a bar or a club to offer free use of their facilities on the condition that they supply the catering or the refreshments. I know that as a club we can book and do book our local chapel hall for fund raising nights and for committee meetings on exactly that basis. After all selling 80 pints of lager is worth more than what they could get from hall rental.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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I would doubt very much if £500 gave unlimited use of facilities - if it did we would be overrun with organisations signing up. I run a group and we pay £20 a night for 2.5 hrs use of a small hall. That is cheap. However over the year that equates to 50 weeks times £20 = £1,000 for my group. I have sometimes wanted to book a Saturday or Sunday during the day for an event but simply cannot afford the huge increase in day costs. I doubt the Church will be getting full use for £500 per annum. I would guess it provides a discount on rental and preference for bookings. If it does give unlimited access then I will transfer my group from Ayrshire to Paisley!

It was confirmed that the church is paying a rental at the public meeting from memory....the minister was at the meeting. I guess the advantage for the CIC community members is similar to the deal for season ticket holders.....wee discount and the chance to secure your preferred seat / facility booking. The MoU is for both parties. The Community Member commits to delivering x to the club and the CIC commits to delivering y to the community member. lawfud is full of imagination as usual.....there was a brief period of positive imagination, which has sadly descended into the usual mince. :wink:

Onto lawfuds point about building bridges....eh, of course that is required. St Mirren has been in the financial shitter for the period that you are talking about, and is still far from cash rich. If anyone is under the impression that SMFC is going to become a free for all for every dafty sausage roll thief freeloader then they are sorely mistaken. Community is about mutual benefit, not about raping the club for everything you can get from it.

This idea that the club should owe youth football clubs freebies because they have provided players on trial is a very stoopid one. Providing services for youths should be about the youths and not the organisations. The clubs should feel rewarded enough that they have helped develop a young player. :)

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It was confirmed that the church is paying a rental at the public meeting from memory....the minister was at the meeting. I guess the advantage for the CIC community members is similar to the deal for season ticket holders.....wee discount and the chance to secure your preferred seat / facility booking. The MoU is for both parties. The Community Member commits to delivering x to the club and the CIC commits to delivering y to the community member. lawfud is full of imagination as usual.....there was a brief period of positive imagination, which has sadly descended into the usual mince. :wink:

Onto lawfuds point about building bridges....eh, of course that is required. St Mirren has been in the financial shitter for the period that you are talking about, and is still far from cash rich. If anyone is under the impression that SMFC is going to become a free for all for every dafty sausage roll thief freeloader then they are sorely mistaken. Community is about mutual benefit, not about raping the club for everything you can get from it.

This idea that the club should owe youth football clubs freebies because they have provided players on trial is a very stoopid one. Providing services for youths should be about the youths and not the organisations. The clubs should feel rewarded enough that they have helped develop a young player. :)

Ach bollocks Sid - sure we all want players to develop but if senior clubs just want to rape and pillage and don't give anything back it won't be long before their supply runs out simply because the Juvenile club being run by volunteers won't be able to survive financially. :rolleyes:

It used to be the case that senior clubs recognised their responsibility. Under the old S'form system I was targeted by an English club and my Sunday league team was paid £1000 compensation - just for me to go on trial. Another player left the club I was at and the team were supplied with a battered old second hand minibus. Since the development of Pro Youth though nothing comes back - and instead all that happens is that the Senior clubs make a greedy grab for any sponsorship money being paid in for grassroots football to the SFA.

I'm watching on with interest to see just how quickly the senior clubs will suddenly develop links into schools football since Lloyds TSB have pushed cash in through that direction. Could Marc McAuslands visit to a school suddenly be something to do with that :rolleyes:

As for your "positive imagination" to "mince" comment I hope that doesn't sum up the attitude of the general St Mirren support. After all there is a regulated requirement to help the community when you are in a CIC. If what I am suggesting is negative imagination I pity the community members who signed up..... :rolleyes:

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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Sonny, we're £8 for 2 hours in the evening for a large gym hall in a Secondary School in North Lanarkshire for our football training. That would equate to £400 over the course of year if we used it like the church group plan to use Greenhill Road. I suppose it depends what the going rates would be in the Paisley area, however I would say again I don't think it would be that unusual for a bar or a club to offer free use of their facilities on the condition that they supply the catering or the refreshments. I know that as a club we can book and do book our local chapel hall for fund raising nights and for committee meetings on exactly that basis. After all selling 80 pints of lager is worth more than what they could get from hall rental.

Fair enough and well done for getting a hall so cheap. The Community Centre that I currently use is closing down in 12 months and I am searching for a new venue and do not expect to be paying less than the £20 that I have been quoted so far for the use of Council facilities. I take the point about providing free rooms if facilities are used but I doubt if the Church will be using the bar or looking for refreshments but I may be wrong. Two years ago I had one group in a licensed Club in Kilmarnock and they charged £20 for the evening with the Lounge Bar through the wall from my booked room. No discount there!

I would imagine that a Church would also have various other interest groups requiring separate accommodation or using other times outwith Church services to host sub-groups like youth clubs, womens guild, etc etc. As I say £500 per annum would seem incredibly cheap and great value but maybe its just Ayrshire that is expensive!

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Fair enough and well done for getting a hall so cheap. The Community Centre that I currently use is closing down in 12 months and I am searching for a new venue and do not expect to be paying less than the £20 that I have been quoted so far for the use of Council facilities. I take the point about providing free rooms if facilities are used but I doubt if the Church will be using the bar or looking for refreshments but I may be wrong. Two years ago I had one group in a licensed Club in Kilmarnock and they charged £20 for the evening with the Lounge Bar through the wall from my booked room. No discount there!

I would imagine that a Church would also have various other interest groups requiring separate accommodation or using other times outwith Church services to host sub-groups like youth clubs, womens guild, etc etc. As I say £500 per annum would seem incredibly cheap and great value but maybe its just Ayrshire that is expensive!

Sonny, I've got no way of knowing what the deal is with the church but the business case for giving them it for the £500 Community Membership fee seems reasonable to me. RA has stated the spin off benefits from weddings, wakes and parties from the church group and whilst they may not be the kind of group that drink alcohol there is nothing to say the club couldn't open an area to sell cups of tea and coffee before and after the service.

The other element perhaps to take into account is that the church will want the facility every Sunday morning. That's fair enough, except that they may be chased away early if there is a televised SPL match - especially since the opening matches in this seasons campaigns are 12.30pm kick offs.

Sonny, I don't know what kind of group you are but if it helps the free venues we use are the

Large Assembly Hall at St Aidans High School x 1 per annum for Prize Giving.

Church Hall at St Thomas' x 13 per annum for Coaches Meetings plus 1 per annum for club AGM plus individual team fund-raisers like race nights etc..

Cleland Miners Club x 1 for the Sportsman's Dinner (although we had to purchase catering for the 270 dinners direct from them)

St Brides Hall, Motherwell x 1 for the Athletics Club Prize Giving and main fundraising nights.

On the downside we pay out nearly £15,000 per year on pitch lets so it's not all positive but we're hoping to do something about that.

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Sonny, I've got no way of knowing what the deal is with the church but the business case for giving them it for the £500 Community Membership fee seems reasonable to me. RA has stated the spin off benefits from weddings, wakes and parties from the church group and whilst they may not be the kind of group that drink alcohol there is nothing to say the club couldn't open an area to sell cups of tea and coffee before and after the service.

The other element perhaps to take into account is that the church will want the facility every Sunday morning. That's fair enough, except that they may be chased away early if there is a televised SPL match - especially since the opening matches in this seasons campaigns are 12.30pm kick offs.

Sonny, I don't know what kind of group you are but if it helps the free venues we use are the

Large Assembly Hall at St Aidans High School x 1 per annum for Prize Giving.

Church Hall at St Thomas' x 13 per annum for Coaches Meetings plus 1 per annum for club AGM plus individual team fund-raisers like race nights etc..

Cleland Miners Club x 1 for the Sportsman's Dinner (although we had to purchase catering for the 270 dinners direct from them)

St Brides Hall, Motherwell x 1 for the Athletics Club Prize Giving and main fundraising nights.

On the downside we pay out nearly £15,000 per year on pitch lets so it's not all positive but we're hoping to do something about that.

For what you are paying Stuart the deals you are getting are very much cheaper than the norm. As you seem to have acheived a link up with churches ( fair to say they want to help the community and are not for profit). A miners club that hopefully generates a good profit and is keen to help the local community and a school which is obviously not an Amey construction and is subsidising your payments through the local council, the reality is not the same elswhere. I have had recent experience of a "happy clappy" church wishing to use premises in a school and being quoted £500 per week. The point I want to make is the church using St Mirren Park will be doing so in their own best interests. The £500 per annum commitment will be to secure the so called MOU and they will pay a rent to the club. This will not make the club rich and will also not bankrupt the church. I wonder what their costs would have been to stay at Stock St or to find an alternative arrangement?. It all has to be win/win or there would be no deal. ......That reminds me I owe someone on here £30 and can't be ars*d searching through the many forums.....can you tell me who it is?

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Here's what you can buy for £30.......A loud Hailer for Sid to shout at the far away Saint , 10%

towards the individual annual payment of Motherwells overdraft for Stuart Dickson , a 10% deposit

on shoes for Tracy barlow, 10 warm beers from Campbell Kennedy or a player for Mort*n

Edited by reborn saint
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For what you are paying Stuart the deals you are getting are very much cheaper than the norm. As you seem to have acheived a link up with churches ( fair to say they want to help the community and are not for profit). A miners club that hopefully generates a good profit and is keen to help the local community and a school which is obviously not an Amey construction and is subsidising your payments through the local council, the reality is not the same elswhere. I have had recent experience of a "happy clappy" church wishing to use premises in a school and being quoted £500 per week. The point I want to make is the church using St Mirren Park will be doing so in their own best interests. The £500 per annum commitment will be to secure the so called MOU and they will pay a rent to the club. This will not make the club rich and will also not bankrupt the church. I wonder what their costs would have been to stay at Stock St or to find an alternative arrangement?. It all has to be win/win or there would be no deal. ......That reminds me I owe someone on here £30 and can't be ars*d searching through the many forums.....can you tell me who it is?

Yeah Reborn Saint, but incase you've missed it 10000hours is a not for profit company and as a CIC they have to help the community, it also has a bar/refreshment/catering facility that will hopefully generate good profit and as part of the CIC will be keen to help the local community, and it's a building that isn't part of a PFI contract. Is that not the reality at Greenhill Road?

I'll defer to your superior knowledge on what churches usually have to pay for a two hour serial let - I just hope North Lanarkshire Leisure don't see your post and realise they missed a trick. After all f**k having a football club pay £56.50 for a match on a Sunday when they could be raking in over £26,500 per annum per church from letting out their indoor hall at Ravenscraig. Maybe at those kind of prices they can install stained glass windows instead of the clear glass in the viewing gallery at Starbucks.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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Yeah Reborn Saint, but incase you've missed it 10000hours is a not for profit company and as a CIC they have to help the community, it also has a bar/refreshment/catering facility that will hopefully generate good profit and as part of the CIC will be keen to help the local community, and it's a building that isn't part of a PFI contract. Is that not the reality at Greenhill Road?

I'll defer to your superior knowledge on what churches usually have to pay for a two hour serial let - I just hope North Lanarkshire Leisure don't see your post and realise they missed a trick. After all f**k having a football club pay £56.50 for a match on a Sunday when they could be raking in over £26,500 per annum per church from letting out their indoor hall at Ravenscraig. Maybe at those kind of prices they can install stained glass windows instead of the clear glass in the viewing gallery at Starbucks.

St Mirren Football Club will remain a for profit organization and the hospitality suite is owned by SMFC not 10000 hours.

Have a look at some of the award winning community projects Saint Mirren are currently involved with, the CIC should see these extended Community

£56.50 a match is less than half the cost to Renfrewshire youth teams and the council say these prices are subsidised by 60%, it looks like Lanarkshire council heavily subsidise youth football so the true could be more like £300 for 90 minutes on an outdoor pitch, I'd expect indoors to be even more expensive. Also there's a big dfference between renting out a basic gym hall and a fully equipped function suite.

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Sonny, I've got no way of knowing what the deal is with the church but the business case for giving them it for the £500 Community Membership fee seems reasonable to me.......

Hi Stuart. In North Ayrshire my cost of £20 is set by the Council for use in all its premises (£8 per hr) for the kind of group I operate (non-profitmaking spiritual/personal development). Other kinds of groups can pay more. I currently use a Community Centre (about to close down) run by a Committee and they can set their own rate and these Centre rates can vary from venue to venue however there appear to be few lets available due to demand.

In East Ayrshire the situation is different. I did have the use of one NHS/Council venue for free (as other parts of the building are open 14 hrs a day) however it is a bit small for my needs and very, very heavily booked. Another Council run venue now want £10 per hour however that went up to £35 per hour at weekends. I did use this for a while (not weekends) but got fed up with them changing rooms, cancelling at short notice etc.

Over the last 12 months in North Ayrshire there has been an uproar about the price of hall lets as the Council wanted to raise them to such a high level that most small organisations would fold (£20 per hr). The Council argument of course is heating, lighting and minimum pay for a caretaker cost more than they charge for use of the hall which is understandable in this economic climate. These current levels are being held at the moment but we expect an increase although hopefully not as much as what they tried to impose last October when all hell broke loose.

I do not know about Paisley but you seem fortunate in Lanarkshire to be able to get free or good rates (except pitches).

My Group is about helping people and no profits are made and I would love to have unlimited or substantial use of a venue for only £500 per annum. If the CiC are offering this deal then I may seriously think about starting a Group at Greenhill Rd.

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Stu, I just checked with a business contact how much he pays NLC for his full size grass pitch.....£37.90. Looks like you're getting ripped off. :lol: The charge is standard across the entire area.

Thats outdoor. Look for the price of the indoor full size 3G pitch at Ravenscraig and come back and say sorry :rolleyes:

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Hi Stuart. In North Ayrshire my cost of £20 is set by the Council for use in all its premises (£8 per hr) for the kind of group I operate (non-profitmaking spiritual/personal development). Other kinds of groups can pay more. I currently use a Community Centre (about to close down) run by a Committee and they can set their own rate and these Centre rates can vary from venue to venue however there appear to be few lets available due to demand.

In East Ayrshire the situation is different. I did have the use of one NHS/Council venue for free (as other parts of the building are open 14 hrs a day) however it is a bit small for my needs and very, very heavily booked. Another Council run venue now want £10 per hour however that went up to £35 per hour at weekends. I did use this for a while (not weekends) but got fed up with them changing rooms, cancelling at short notice etc.

Over the last 12 months in North Ayrshire there has been an uproar about the price of hall lets as the Council wanted to raise them to such a high level that most small organisations would fold (£20 per hr). The Council argument of course is heating, lighting and minimum pay for a caretaker cost more than they charge for use of the hall which is understandable in this economic climate. These current levels are being held at the moment but we expect an increase although hopefully not as much as what they tried to impose last October when all hell broke loose.

I do not know about Paisley but you seem fortunate in Lanarkshire to be able to get free or good rates (except pitches).

My Group is about helping people and no profits are made and I would love to have unlimited or substantial use of a venue for only £500 per annum. If the CiC are offering this deal then I may seriously think about starting a Group at Greenhill Rd.

Sonny, not attempting to be funny but why not contact RA then and see what he can offer you. I might well be miles out in terms of price but if you never ask you won't know. I'd venture your group could be adapted in some way to ensure some sort of SROI for the CIC.

When I was at the SEN conference at Stirling a few weeks back they talked about a facility in Oban called Atlantis. For the past 19 years that's been run by the Community in a form of SEN. The centre manager was doing a talk and he explained that the reason Atlantis worked was because he had never turned away a project that benefitted the community. Now maybe somewhere along the line I've gone all idealistic again about what a football club can do in a CIC and maybe I've set myself up for another crashing fall as it transpires that in reality 10000 hours is also just about grabbing as much cash as possible but I honestly hope it's not like that at all.

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Thats outdoor. Look for the price of the indoor full size 3G pitch at Ravenscraig and come back and say sorry :rolleyes:

Just checked with him and he says that he can get a hard pitch of some sort, tainers only for £55.90. He says his youth teams prefer playing on grass. He also sayd he knows you and you are a c*ck. :P

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Just checked with him and he says that he can get a hard pitch of some sort, tainers only for £55.90. He says his youth teams prefer playing on grass. He also sayd he knows you and you are a c*ck. :P

We prefer grass too but our extensive run in the Scottish, Regional and LFDA Cups meant we couldn't afford the luxury of a 6 week shutdown over the winter that he obviously could :rolleyes:

The indoor 3G pitch at Ravenscraig is just like any in the country - moulded football boots are the preferred footwear.

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We prefer grass too but our extensive run in the Scottish, Regional and LFDA Cups meant we couldn't afford the luxury of a 6 week shutdown over the winter that he obviously could :rolleyes:

The indoor 3G pitch at Ravenscraig is just like any in the country - moulded football boots are the preferred footwear.

So is this what your bizarre and personal rant / crusade actually boils down to....6 weeks snow in an exceptional winter causing Ravenscraig to be booked out by St Mirren last season. This takes your St Mirren Bunny Boiling exploits to a new low. :wacko:

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Sonny, not attempting to be funny but why not contact RA then and see what he can offer you. I might well be miles out in terms of price but if you never ask you won't know. I'd venture your group could be adapted in some way to ensure some sort of SROI for the CIC.

When I was at the SEN conference at Stirling a few weeks back they talked about a facility in Oban called Atlantis. For the past 19 years that's been run by the Community in a form of SEN. The centre manager was doing a talk and he explained that the reason Atlantis worked was because he had never turned away a project that benefitted the community. Now maybe somewhere along the line I've gone all idealistic again about what a football club can do in a CIC and maybe I've set myself up for another crashing fall as it transpires that in reality 10000 hours is also just about grabbing as much cash as possible but I honestly hope it's not like that at all.

I share in your idealism. I have been a supporter for more years than I care to remember but my £10 a month to the CiC is a lot more than just for the club. I no longer live in Paisley but was brought up just off Well St then Glenburn. I am truly saddened at the current state of a town which was once a great place to live and gave me many happy childhood memories of a vibrant town full of great people and if my £10 can help any local people then I am happy to contribute. Ownership of St Mirren is just a bonus.

I'll maybe look a little bit more into what a Cummunity Organisation gets for its £500.

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So is this what your bizarre and personal rant / crusade actually boils down to....6 weeks snow in an exceptional winter causing Ravenscraig to be booked out by St Mirren last season. This takes your St Mirren Bunny Boiling exploits to a new low. :wacko:

Did St Mirren book it? I thought they went to Toryglen?

We managed to get the pitch at Ravenscraig fof five league and cup matches over that winter period which wasn't bad at all. We just had to be a bit flexible over our kick off times.

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I share in your idealism. I have been a supporter for more years than I care to remember but my £10 a month to the CiC is a lot more than just for the club. I no longer live in Paisley but was brought up just off Well St then Glenburn. I am truly saddened at the current state of a town which was once a great place to live and gave me many happy childhood memories of a vibrant town full of great people and if my £10 can help any local people then I am happy to contribute. Ownership of St Mirren is just a bonus.

I'll maybe look a little bit more into what a Cummunity Organisation gets for its £500.

Very much my view too Sonny. As per the charity rant, I get haunted by people asking me to donate a tenner a month to charities I have never heard of and even if I have that I don't care about. This £10-a-month investment is great value and hits all the right spots for me. Firstly it delivers real community ownership - Saints fans owning the club...something most fans have wished for for eons. It also delivers growth for the club. It also brings some outstanding commercial talent into the club....REA has already done great things for us not to mention the talent coming in through the commercial members. The bar is a bit of a side bonus to be honest, but I love the idea of a few hundred Buds being able to get together for a beer before the game, and for other occasions. Love the idea of our big occasions being celebrated at the club too.

Then there's the community element. My tenner a month will be used to help increase the fundraising opportunities for local organisations such as Kibble and Erskine amongst others. Two orgs worth of a donation at any time of the year, as well as smaller local initiatives also worthy of investment. Time allowing I might also look into investing a wee bit into one of those orgs once I learn more about what they all about. One in particular has my interest at the moment. Not only does my tenner a month allow the club to grow but it also supports the growth of my community. It will create a few jobs for people in the community and perhaps even on the commercial front as well as its members see the opportunity in Renfrewshire.

I'll bet most of give more than a tenner a month (shull excepted) to charities we know f"k all about or couldn't give a toss about just because some bawbag has rattled a bucket or waved a sponsorship form in our face to fund their weekend / holiday activities.

I know where my tenner a month is going, I know I will get a personal return from it and that it will be initiatives I care about that benefit. Great value for a tenner-a-month.

Also forgot to mention the return of Tony Fitzpatrick to the club..........a true legend of a human being. :)

Edited by St. Sid
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I share in your idealism. I have been a supporter for more years than I care to remember but my £10 a month to the CiC is a lot more than just for the club. I no longer live in Paisley but was brought up just off Well St then Glenburn. I am truly saddened at the current state of a town which was once a great place to live and gave me many happy childhood memories of a vibrant town full of great people and if my £10 can help any local people then I am happy to contribute. Ownership of St Mirren is just a bonus.

I'll maybe look a little bit more into what a Cummunity Organisation gets for its £500.

Good luck Sonny - hopefully our idealism isn't just a fantasy.

I took a great deal of encouragement from the SEN conference, listening to a large number of people who genuinely had the community at heart and who were more than happy to share information and their business model which was really refreshing. I've only spoken to RA on the phone but he impressed me too in both his openness and in his honesty and the reason I'm solidly behind the 10000hours CIC is because I believe its has the potential to be the start of something truly different and innovative in our national sport. I've said it many times though - I think the weakness in the St Mirren model is that it's been sold to Individual Members who simply won't have the ability to see beyond what's in it for St Mirren.

If they genuinely are planning to take £26,500 per annum in rent off a not for profit community group like a church as Reborn Saint suggested then I don't think I'll be a member for too long because clearly the project wouldn't be what I thought it was.

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Good luck Sonny - hopefully our idealism isn't just a fantasy.

I took a great deal of encouragement from the SEN conference, listening to a large number of people who genuinely had the community at heart and who were more than happy to share information and their business model which was really refreshing. I've only spoken to RA on the phone but he impressed me too in both his openness and in his honesty and the reason I'm solidly behind the 10000hours CIC is because I believe its has the potential to be the start of something truly different and innovative in our national sport. I've said it many times though - I think the weakness in the St Mirren model is that it's been sold to Individual Members who simply won't have the ability to see beyond what's in it for St Mirren.

If they genuinely are planning to take £26,500 per annum in rent off a not for profit community group like a church as Reborn Saint suggested then I don't think I'll be a member for too long because clearly the project wouldn't be what I thought it was.

That's lawfud chucking it before its even started. :lol::lol: :lol:

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Oh right - so they are taking £26,500 off the religiously disadvantaged? :huh:

Nope, it means that without any facts and pure speculation you are already threatening to run off in another monumental sulk. You do realise that it is a full year you have signed up to. :wink:

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Nope, it means that without any facts and pure speculation you are already threatening to run off in another monumental sulk. You do realise that it is a full year you have signed up to. :wink:

I was simply stating that if the CIC turned out to be simply another way for a business with a £multi million turnover to screw over volunteer and charity organisations I wouldn't be likely to be a member for very long. Fortunately I don't believe you have the slightest clue in how the church deal is set up and I happen to believe you are completely wrong....as usual. :wink:

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