What would you do?

[bud77]

I was simply stating that if the CIC turned out to be simply another way for a business with a £multi million turnover to screw over volunteer and charity organisations I wouldn't be likely to be a member for very long. Fortunately I don't believe you have the slightest clue in how the church deal is set up and I happen to believe you are completely wrong....as usual.

So you expect the other extreme where the communiy get everything at the club's expense ?

I'd expect it to be mutually beneficial, the club get some income the church save money - everyone's happy. I don't expect my £120 a year will enable me to go to the cic and say I'm having a party and get the member's bar free of charge. I would expect to have to pay a reasonable charge for hire but a lower rate than the local hotels would charge.

[ds10]

So you expect the other extreme where the communiy get everything at the club's expense ?

I'd expect it to be mutually beneficial…

I think that's quite right.

The CIC has after all been set up around St Mirren with St Mirren fans as individual members. I personally think it won't last very long if it is not seen to benefit the football club.

Occasionally it seems to be portrayed on here as a community organisation set up to exploit the football club for it's own ends. However I don't think that's true at all.

The purpose of the CIC is to protect the football club and allow it to engage more effectively with the community so everybody benefits.

[Stuart Dickson]

So you expect the other extreme where the communiy get everything at the club's expense ?

I'd expect it to be mutually beneficial, the club get some income the church save money - everyone's happy. I don't expect my £120 a year will enable me to go to the cic and say I'm having a party and get the member's bar free of charge. I would expect to have to pay a reasonable charge for hire but a lower rate than the local hotels would charge.

A mutual benefit of having the church on site could simply be that you can cater for them every week before or after their service, or that you would hope to tap into the congregation for business from parties, wakes and weddings.

Ill tell you what - without knowing much about the church or the deal I'd question the benefit to them of giving up a building you own, at a time of a commercial proprty market depression to go pay silly 'just below hotel prices' rental charges. Especially if we are talking about a figure based on the £26,500 per annul Reborn Saint was quoting

Edited June 25, 2011 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

I think that's quite right.

The CIC has after all been set up around St Mirren with St Mirren fans as individual members. I personally think it won't last very long if it is not seen to benefit the football club.

Occasionally it seems to be portrayed on here as a community organisation set up to exploit the football club for it's own ends. However I don't think that's true at all.

The purpose of the CIC is to protect the football club and allow it to engage more effectively with the community so everybody benefits.

I seriously doubt that 10000hours has been set up purely for St Mirren. Maybe Im wrong but to me the deal is more a case of a Not for profit community interest company buying a controlling stake in a football club who's principle asset - the stadium - becomes a venue for the CiC to host it's members

[St. Sid]

A mutual benefit of having the church on site could simply be that you can cater for them every week before or after their service, or that you would hope to tap into the congregation for business from parties, wakes and weddings.

Ill tell you what - without knowing much about the church or the deal I'd question the benefit to them of giving up a building you own, at a time of a commercial proprty market depression to go pay silly 'just below hotel prices' rental charges. Especially if we are talking about a figure based on the £26,500 per annul Reborn Saint was quoting

So there we have it.....umpteen posts slagging off the CIC proposal accompanied with threats of walking away from the CIC and it is all based on a furtive negative imagination - a neurosis that has grown over ten years of bitterness over a petty squabble that normal people wouldn't bat an eye lid over, that we call a business decision. After all this time, and all the negativity and personal attacks lawfud still doesn't understand why the club didn't want to do business with him.

[bud77]

A mutual benefit of having the church on site could simply be that you can cater for them every week before or after their service, or that you would hope to tap into the congregation for business from parties, wakes and weddings.

Ill tell you what - without knowing much about the church or the deal I'd question the benefit to them of giving up a building you own, at a time of a commercial proprty market depression to go pay silly 'just below hotel prices' rental charges. Especially if we are talking about a figure based on the £26,500 per annul Reborn Saint was quoting

Do you know for certain that they own the building they had been using and didn't just rent it ?

What I do know is that it's a very old church and these buildings tend to be very expensive to heat and very expensive to maintain. Maybe the lease was up or maybe they decided it's cheaper to pay St Mirren a rent and once property prices pick up they can sell it to a developer.

You seem to be thinking that St Mirren are the CIC, they aren't and won't become one. The St Mirren board will still have to look at commercial opportunities, where's the benefit to them of letting a space on a weekly basis for a peppercorn rent when they could poossibly get more by renting it out 2 or 3 times a year at times when the church might want to use it ? Under the CIC 10,000 hours have stated the club will gain income from the use of the club's facilities, 10,000 hours will not own the hospitality suite so St Mirren are entitled to the income from renting it whether that comes from the church or 10,000 hours.

[Stuart Dickson]

So there we have it.....umpteen posts slagging off the CIC proposal accompanied with threats of walking away from the CIC and it is all based on a furtive negative imagination - a neurosis that has grown over ten years of bitterness over a petty squabble that normal people wouldn't bat an eye lid over, that we call a business decision. After all this time, and all the negativity and personal attacks lawfud still doesn't understand why the club didn't want to do business with him.

"Slagging off the CIC proposal" - really? Where have I done that?

I think it speaks volumes for just how wasted on you this opportunity is Sid if you think that posting in support of the CIC, expressing my vision and wanting to see the community supported is negative in any way. Infact I think it serves to back up my concern that the weakness in the whole proposal is the fact that dafties like you are going to be responsible for electing representatives.....

[bud77]

"Slagging off the CIC proposal" - really? Where have I done that?

I think it speaks volumes for just how wasted on you this opportunity is Sid if you think that posting in support of the CIC, expressing my vision and wanting to see the community supported is negative in any way. Infact I think it serves to back up my concern that the weakness in the whole proposal is the fact that dafties like you are going to be responsible for electing representatives.....

As the CIC would not proceed without the backing of the fans it's safe to assume the fans are integral to the CIC. Slagging off fans who will become community members is in effect slagging off the CIC.

[Stuart Dickson]

Do you know for certain that they own the building they had been using and didn't just rent it ?

What I do know is that it's a very old church and these buildings tend to be very expensive to heat and very expensive to maintain. Maybe the lease was up or maybe they decided it's cheaper to pay St Mirren a rent and once property prices pick up they can sell it to a developer.

You seem to be thinking that St Mirren are the CIC, they aren't and won't become one. The St Mirren board will still have to look at commercial opportunities, where's the benefit to them of letting a space on a weekly basis for a peppercorn rent when they could poossibly get more by renting it out 2 or 3 times a year at times when the church might want to use it ? Under the CIC 10,000 hours have stated the club will gain income from the use of the club's facilities, 10,000 hours will not own the hospitality suite so St Mirren are entitled to the income from renting it whether that comes from the church or 10,000 hours.

To answer your question - no. I've said it already, I have no idea what the set up of the church is at the moment and I've no idea what the MoU is that they have negotiated with 10000hours. I think we can all agree Bud that if the deal on the table wasn't deemed advantageous to those running the church they wouldn't even be considering it. It's the level of contribution we would disagree on though. Reborn Saint mentioned £500 per week rent as a quote from a PFI school. What I said was that I would seriously doubt that signing a rental agreement that sees them pay £500 up front and then a further £26,000 per annum would be more advantageous than owning their own building - something they COULD easily do (if they don't already) if they themselves became an SEN or a CIC. They wouldn't be the first religious group to go down this route, as Richard himself would tell you.

You are absolutely right though that I don't think St Mirren and the CIC will become one. The clues are all there. Reborn Saint shared a conversation he's had with RA where he's indicated he won't be around St Mirren for that long at all. 10000hours is a much bigger project than just St Mirren, and I think you'll come to realise that 10000hours is to St Mirren what the likes of the Carnegie Group were to r*ngers, or what Enic are to Tottenham Hotspur. The only difference being that their owners are profit making businesses with little concern shown to the community whilst 10,000 hours have to be community focused.

[Stuart Dickson]

As the CIC would not proceed without the backing of the fans it's safe to assume the fans are integral to the CIC. Slagging off fans who will become community members is in effect slagging off the CIC.

It's not. I'm not slagging off the community or corporate members or the founders who will hold the majority in any vote, and I'm a huge fan of the SEN/CIC business model. However I cannot get away from the fact that when discussing the model on here too many people who will have a vote simply don't get it and simply cannot grasp just how crucial the community element of the project will be. I also find it frustrating that fans of a football club have become so blinded by the immediate bottom line and footballs desperate desire to grab cash at every turn, that they can't grasp the wider concept of PCS tenders, and SROI's for community projects - and that there's resistance to the concept that St Mirren FC might have to pay out a little in order to gain a lot. I'm also finding it hard to understand why supposed football minded people cannot get their head around the mutual interests and benefits that would be gained by attracting juvenile football clubs. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so serious.

[St. Sid]

As the CIC would not proceed without the backing of the fans it's safe to assume the fans are integral to the CIC. Slagging off fans who will become community members is in effect slagging off the CIC.

It's what lawfud is all about. He basically hates St Mirren and everybody associated with the club from its Chairman to its fans. REA should send his direct debit form back to him before it's too late.

[bud77]

It's not. I'm not slagging off the community or corporate members or the founders who will hold the majority in any vote, and I'm a huge fan of the SEN/CIC business model. However I cannot get away from the fact that when discussing the model on here too many people who will have a vote simply don't get it and simply cannot grasp just how crucial the community element of the project will be. I also find it frustrating that fans of a football club have become so blinded by the immediate bottom line and footballs desperate desire to grab cash at every turn, that they can't grasp the wider concept of PCS tenders, and SROI's for community projects - and that there's resistance to the concept that St Mirren FC might have to pay out a little in order to gain a lot. I'm also finding it hard to understand why supposed football minded people cannot get their head around the mutual interests and benefits that would be gained by attracting juvenile football clubs. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so serious.

So you do admit you're slagging off the individual members

I dispute what you say above, I don't think many fans desire to grab cash at every turn, I do think we want to make sure that St Mirren do get some benefit from the use of St Mirren's assets. The community aspect is pivotal to the success of the CIC and I can see St Mirren's community initiatives (which are already quite substantial) being extended within the CIC umbrella.The fact remains that SMFC will still be a commercial business run separately from 10,000 hours and, as such, the board of SMFC legally have to look out for SMFC's best interests. As I have said before I believe there will be mutual benefit to the club and to the member organizations, how that benefit will be split will depend on the organizations involved and what they want from the CIC, some might simply want to be able to point to it and say ' we are a community based company who support worthwhile causes within Renfrewshire' others may want a lot more from it, until we know all the organizations involved none of us can really say what the individual members can do to support the CIC.

I wouldn't really like to see individual juvenile clubs involved, I think there could well be a bit of 'we're not supporting them, they work with ....' from other clubs and anyway Saint Mirren have their own juvenile club in the P & J league. I'd much rather see the P & J league getting involved with the benefits spreading through all of the clubs in the league. I'd also like to see a time in the future where 10,000 hours build sport complexes throughout Renfrewshire which could be used, at reasonable, cost by the juvenile clubs and also used for the soccer camps, street football initiatives and other sports. There could be one major complex at the racecourse covering football, hockey, track and field etc and smaller ones, like Ferguslie, in the schemes.

[reborn saint]

Good luck Sonny - hopefully our idealism isn't just a fantasy.

I took a great deal of encouragement from the SEN conference, listening to a large number of people who genuinely had the community at heart and who were more than happy to share information and their business model which was really refreshing. I've only spoken to RA on the phone but he impressed me too in both his openness and in his honesty and the reason I'm solidly behind the 10000hours CIC is because I believe its has the potential to be the start of something truly different and innovative in our national sport. I've said it many times though - I think the weakness in the St Mirren model is that it's been sold to Individual Members who simply won't have the ability to see beyond what's in it for St Mirren.

If they genuinely are planning to take £26,500 per annum in rent off a not for profit community group like a church as Reborn Saint suggested then I don't think I'll be a member for too long because clearly the project wouldn't be what I thought it was.

Sorry Stuart, I can see why you get the figure of £26,500 per annum which is not the case.The application to hire an Amey school was for 4 weeks in the summer which would have been for the whole day and was priced at £2000. The orginization which I am not directly connected with had used another school in the past and had put on a summer programme which was free for all and a big hit for the local kids. They had previously paid a fee of £60 per week. The point i was trying to make is that things like this are changing fast.

[Stuart Dickson]

It's what lawfud is all about. He basically hates St Mirren and everybody associated with the club from its Chairman to its fans. REA should send his direct debit form back to him before it's too late.

If he doesn't will you sulk?

[Stuart Dickson]

So you do admit you're slagging off the individual members

Yes - no joke. I've said it many times already. I don't have any faith in the ability of your average St Mirren supporter to elect the kind of community focused board that will deliver the best long term results, both for 10000hours and for St Mirren Ltd.

I dispute what you say above, I don't think many fans desire to grab cash at every turn, I do think we want to make sure that St Mirren do get some benefit from the use of St Mirren's assets. The community aspect is pivotal to the success of the CIC and I can see St Mirren's community initiatives (which are already quite substantial) being extended within the CIC umbrella.The fact remains that SMFC will still be a commercial business run separately from 10,000 hours and, as such, the board of SMFC legally have to look out for SMFC's best interests. As I have said before I believe there will be mutual benefit to the club and to the member organizations, how that benefit will be split will depend on the organizations involved and what they want from the CIC, some might simply want to be able to point to it and say ' we are a community based company who support worthwhile causes within Renfrewshire' others may want a lot more from it, until we know all the organizations involved none of us can really say what the individual members can do to support the CIC.

Actually, for all you are disputing what I've said regarding the attitude of football supporters to the community we're not too far apart if what you've said here is correct. St Mirren will be just one of many trading arms of the parent CIC. The St Mirren board will have to look after the clubs interests and there is of course shareholders who have a 48% stake whose interests will need protecting too. However this is the weak link IMO. The football board is going to contain elected members put in their post by Individual Members. If those members can't get their head around the idea that paying out for a football shirt that will be signed and donated to a Community Member to raise funds is going to be beneficial to the club in the longer term, what hope is there that they will be capable to electing members to the football board who will be able to see the bigger picture.

I wouldn't really like to see individual juvenile clubs involved, I think there could well be a bit of 'we're not supporting them, they work with ....' from other clubs and anyway Saint Mirren have their own juvenile club in the P & J league. I'd much rather see the P & J league getting involved with the benefits spreading through all of the clubs in the league. I'd also like to see a time in the future where 10,000 hours build sport complexes throughout Renfrewshire which could be used, at reasonable, cost by the juvenile clubs and also used for the soccer camps, street football initiatives and other sports. There could be one major complex at the racecourse covering football, hockey, track and field etc and smaller ones, like Ferguslie, in the schemes.

I think you're being incredibly short sighted here. Consider this - lets say I owed a company that owed a pie factory. In the course of running the pie factory I had people who supplied me with flour, butter, eggs, and fillings. The factory is running at less than half capacity and I want to expand the business. You tell me, when I'm looking for a company to takeover would I be better looking to acquire a similar profitable company who use similar suppliers and whos orders will help me run my factory closer to full capacity, or would I be better buying an engineering works? St Mirren's business is football. The current suppliers supply football clubs. Wouldn't it be better to get loads of football clubs together under the one group, negotiate better volume discounts? Wouldn't it be better to work with people who's members have already got a keen interest in football and who have volunteers who are qualified in your business?

Having one team in one league is fair enough - but wouldn't having ten teams, with qualified coaches, across ten leagues, in ten districts throughout the UK substantially widen your scouting network? Would a sponsor put more or less value on putting his brand on 10,000 shirts than he does putting his brand on the 2,000 units that St Mirren will sell during the course of a season?

As for the objection from Juvenile Clubs, do you really think so? If the CIC is delivering the kind of benefits it should be to the juvenile club I think a far more likely response would be "how did those jammy bastards get that?" - quickly followed by "if being in a 10000hours CIC gets you all that who do we make the cheque out to?"

[delpierro]

this whole cic, is a dead duck, it aint gonna happen. so take yer christian fundamentalist shit and and stay away from st mirren.

the end.

[delpierro]

.......................and government grant is a no no!!

the end, again

[bud77]

Yes - no joke. I've said it many times already. I don't have any faith in the ability of your average St Mirren supporter to elect the kind of community focused board that will deliver the best long term results, both for 10000hours and for St Mirren Ltd.

The community and business organizations will also elect members to the board, there will be a fair representation for all members.

Actually, for all you are disputing what I've said regarding the attitude of football supporters to the community we're not too far apart if what you've said here is correct. St Mirren will be just one of many trading arms of the parent CIC. The St Mirren board will have to look after the clubs interests and there is of course shareholders who have a 48% stake whose interests will need protecting too. However this is the weak link IMO. The football board is going to contain elected members put in their post by Individual Members. If those members can't get their head around the idea that paying out for a football shirt that will be signed and donated to a Community Member to raise funds is going to be beneficial to the club in the longer term, what hope is there that they will be capable to electing members to the football board who will be able to see the bigger picture.

There's a big difference between paying out for a few signed shirts and letting premises for free when they could be used for other income streams

I think you're being incredibly short sighted here. Consider this - lets say I owed a company that owed a pie factory. In the course of running the pie factory I had people who supplied me with flour, butter, eggs, and fillings. The factory is running at less than half capacity and I want to expand the business. You tell me, when I'm looking for a company to takeover would I be better looking to acquire a similar profitable company who use similar suppliers and whos orders will help me run my factory closer to full capacity, or would I be better buying an engineering works? St Mirren's business is football. The current suppliers supply football clubs. Wouldn't it be better to get loads of football clubs together under the one group, negotiate better volume discounts? Wouldn't it be better to work with people who's members have already got a keen interest in football and who have volunteers who are qualified in your business?

Having one team in one league is fair enough - but wouldn't having ten teams, with qualified coaches, across ten leagues, in ten districts throughout the UK substantially widen your scouting network? Would a sponsor put more or less value on putting his brand on 10,000 shirts than he does putting his brand on the 2,000 units that St Mirren will sell during the course of a season?

As for the objection from Juvenile Clubs, do you really think so? If the CIC is delivering the kind of benefits it should be to the juvenile club I think a far more likely response would be "how did those jammy bastards get that?" - quickly followed by "if being in a 10000hours CIC gets you all that who do we make the cheque out to?"

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here, the CIC isn't up and running yet but already you want to rule the world. There's nothing wrong with ambition but this is a brand new, untested model for running a senior football club and there will be mistakes made along the way. I think it's much better to find those potential pitfalls in the local community where there's a connection to the club and therefore a bit more goodwill and willingness to work through them before going global. The first priority should be to make 10,000 hours succesful in the local community so that others looking in are attracted to the CIC.

[reborn saint]

Do you know for certain that they own the building they had been using and didn't just rent it ?

What I do know is that it's a very old church and these buildings tend to be very expensive to heat and very expensive to maintain. Maybe the lease was up or maybe they decided it's cheaper to pay St Mirren a rent and once property prices pick up they can sell it to a developer.

You seem to be thinking that St Mirren are the CIC, they aren't and won't become one. The St Mirren board will still have to look at commercial opportunities, where's the benefit to them of letting a space on a weekly basis for a peppercorn rent when they could poossibly get more by renting it out 2 or 3 times a year at times when the church might want to use it ? Under the CIC 10,000 hours have stated the club will gain income from the use of the club's facilities, 10,000 hours will not own the hospitality suite so St Mirren are entitled to the income from renting it whether that comes from the church or 10,000 hours.

As there seems to be alot of discussion on one small aspect of the cic community membership regarding the church i think your post says it all. The costs of operating in a run down building are truely massive. Whether they own it or rent it is of no consequence as they still have to maintain and refurbish it when needed. Now what better to relocate to a brand new facility which more than meets their needs. For £500 they get their MOU and agree a fixed cost rent which I would estimate between £5000 and £10000 per annum due to the fact it is used for 2 hrs per week. This cost I am sure will be much more affordable to them than their previous arrangement and give them long term security for their orginization. They will gain an added benifit as the amount of people traffic who will be using the facility may feel they want to find out more about them and as such can add to their congregation. St Mirren can also benifit from some of the kids attending , looking out onto the park and asking to go to a game, some becoming season ticket holders. The events , Weddings , Funerals and parties they will hold...say 3 per year will be a small part of the bigger picture of generating the major amount of income through the stadium becoming a true multifunctional facility catering for a wide range of events.

[bud77]

As there seems to be alot of discussion on one small aspect of the cic community membership regarding the church i think your post says it all. The costs of operating in a run down building are truely massive. Whether they own it or rent it is of no consequence as they still have to maintain and refurbish it when needed. Now what better to relocate to a brand new facility which more than meets their needs. For £500 they get their MOU and agree a fixed cost rent which I would estimate between £5000 and £10000 per annum due to the fact it is used for 2 hrs per week. This cost I am sure will be much more affordable to them than their previous arrangement and give them long term security for their orginization. They will gain an added benifit as the amount of people traffic who will be using the facility may feel they want to find out more about them and as such can add to their congregation. St Mirren can also benifit from some of the kids attending , looking out onto the park and asking to go to a game, some becoming season ticket holders. The events , Weddings , Funerals and parties they will hold...say 3 per year will be a small part of the bigger picture of generating the major amount of income through the stadium becoming a true multifunctional facility catering for a wide range of events.

I don't want to sound like Agreeable Tom here but I agree with that. The only thing I'd add is that churches tend to have other things happening during the week such as youth clubs, womens guild, bible classes etc so if these were included in the figures above it would be a very good deal for the church.

Just imagine a church youth club using the street football initiative. But there's also how the other, unknown community groups will fit in that will hopefully see community groups working with each other on common projects with some financial support from the business members.

[reborn saint]

I don't want to sound like Agreeable Tom here but I agree with that. The only thing I'd add is that churches tend to have other things happening during the week such as youth clubs, womens guild, bible classes etc so if these were included in the figures above it would be a very good deal for the church.

Just imagine a church youth club using the street football initiative. But there's also how the other, unknown community groups will fit in that will hopefully see community groups working with each other on common projects with some financial support from the business members.

This is really the point of a MOU. The church will have discussed all it's individual needs regarding the times of use required from the stadium and the facilities it needs. Only then would a financial package be offered to them which will be at a profit for the cic but not more than the church could access elsewhere. You are right these churches in particular have youth clubs and need exra times to facilitate them. As you have already highlighted a shared resource such as street football sounds ideal. The point that seems to be missed on here is that cic's are NOT charities and are activley encouraged to make profit. The point is that the profit can't be taken out by any individual and is used to increase the facilities already on offer which will in turn benefit the club.

[Stuart Dickson]

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here, the CIC isn't up and running yet but already you want to rule the world. There's nothing wrong with ambition but this is a brand new, untested model for running a senior football club and there will be mistakes made along the way. I think it's much better to find those potential pitfalls in the local community where there's a connection to the club and therefore a bit more goodwill and willingness to work through them before going global. The first priority should be to make 10,000 hours succesful in the local community so that others looking in are attracted to the CIC.

St Mirren supporters are a strange bunch. First St Sid claims I'm doing the CIC down and that I'm being uber critical when I post that I want 10000 hours to succeed and do well - then Bud thinks that getting 10 community groups who have identical needs to the main trading arm within the CIC is so ambitious it's a bid to rule the world. So I guess the answer to the initial question - "What would you do" - lies somewhere in between nothing at all to extremely little just in case a mistake is made.

Meanwhile we shouldn't target individual juvenile football clubs at all despite understanding their needs and knowing those needs can be met whilst the confirmed Community Members range from the religious to a Veteran Serviceman care charity.

It looks to me like the founders are racing on at pace, and the Individual Members are going to have real problems keeping up.

[Stuart Dickson]

The point that seems to be missed on here is that cic's are NOT charities and are activley encouraged to make profit. The point is that the profit can't be taken out by any individual and is used to increase the facilities already on offer which will in turn benefit the club.

I didn't miss this at all. I totally understand the workings of an SEN and whilst I might be a bit more woolly on the regulation surrounding a CiC I completely understand that it's just a variation on the SEN theme. The reason we got into the workings of the church rental agreement was because I said that those elected onto the Football Board were going to have to understand that there would be a cost to the football club - whether that is in terms of compensating players to do PA's, whether it's in terms of providing auction items and raffle items to assist with fundraising, or whether it's simply in terms of inconveniencing one of the pro youth age groups for a week or two to allow the odd community event to happen at Ralston.

I have to say I would still find £5000 - £10000 per annum excessive, especially given that it would be very easy for the CiC to earn additional revenue through the deal providing pre and post service catering - and also given that the club currently isn't making anything at all from renting our the suite on Sunday mornings but if the CiC can get that money in good on them, i guess.

[reborn saint]

St Mirren supporters are a strange bunch. First St Sid claims I'm doing the CIC down and that I'm being uber critical when I post that I want 10000 hours to succeed and do well - then Bud thinks that getting 10 community groups who have identical needs to the main trading arm within the CIC is so ambitious it's a bid to rule the world. So I guess the answer to the initial question - "What would you do" - lies somewhere in between nothing at all to extremely little just in case a mistake is made.

Meanwhile we shouldn't target individual juvenile football clubs at all despite understanding their needs and knowing those needs can be met whilst the confirmed Community Members range from the religious to a Veteran Serviceman care charity.

It looks to me like the founders are racing on at pace, and the Individual Members are going to have real problems keeping up.

Stuart, all your posts on here seem to involve your commitment to the juvenile leagues you are involved in. 10000hrs is much bigger than this and as St Mirren are already very active in the footballing sense regarding community projects I think you are better staying where you are. This is not about creating a juvenile football environment, its about creating a facility which can be used by all. It does seem you have your own objectives for the cic and as a non St Mirren supporter I have no idea why you wish to get involved. I would be very surprised if there are any other non St Mirren supporters signed up.

[Stuart Dickson]

Stuart, all your posts on here seem to involve your commitment to the juvenile leagues you are involved in. 10000hrs is much bigger than this and as St Mirren are already very active in the footballing sense regarding community projects I think you are better staying where you are. This is not about creating a juvenile football environment, its about creating a facility which can be used by all. It does seem you have your own objectives for the cic and as a non St Mirren supporter I have no idea why you wish to get involved. I would be very surprised if there are any other non St Mirren supporters signed up.

We've been over this before. The main reason I keep harking back to juvenile football is because that's where my area of expertise lies. It's only natural that if were to cite an example it would be from an area I know well and not something from the Ferguslie knitting and crochet, scone baking club. And I've also pointed out to you that there will be other non St Mirren supporters signed up - certainly in the Community side and most likely in the Commercial side too and I've also asked you previously if you have a problem with Richard Atkinson having confirmed that when he initially got involved in the project he too wasn't a St Mirren supporter. Constantly bringing it back to this point seems bizarre in the extreme, and I'll ask you again would you be more comfortable if I wasn't a member?