What would you do?

[Tracy Barlow Loyal]

Can we have Reborn Saint sin binned for a blatent attempt at post building....for being a dick on a forum.....and for failing to achieve his goal as there's a second page to the board.

Anyway back on topic.

We could do without you calling folk "dicks", Stuart...

[St. Sid]

Moving on from the Stu's a Dick Show....

Good to see Marc McAusland making the local rag for a personal appearance at local primary schools. Would love to see something like this in the PDE at least twice a week. Great for the community and will also be very good for the players.

[Stuart Dickson]

Moving on from the Stu's a Dick Show....

Good to see Marc McAusland making the local rag for a personal appearance at local primary schools. Would love to see something like this in the PDE at least twice a week. Great for the community and will also be very good for the players.

Twice a week? Wow. How generous! At that rate your talking 7 visits per year max for £500. And that wouldn't begin to scratch the surface of the possibilities from PCS contracts and maximising the opportunity for SROIs.

Again it looks to me like the weakness in involving a team like St Mirren is the lack of ability and knowledge around those who will elect their leaders.

[St. Sid]

Twice a week? Wow. How generous! At that rate your talking 7 visits per year max for £500. And that wouldn't begin to scratch the surface of the possibilities from PCS contracts and maximising the opportunity for SROIs.

Again it looks to me like the weakness in involving a team like St Mirren is the lack of ability and knowledge around those who will elect their leaders.

More deranged obsessive ramblings. Are you suggesting that the only reason Marc went to visit a primary school was because they are CIC community members? Perhaps you would also claim that Marc received an appearance fee and that was the only reason he attended.

Like I said in another thread, you have a very strange perspective on community.

[Stuart Dickson]

More deranged obsessive ramblings. Are you suggesting that the only reason Marc went to visit a primary school was because they are CIC community members? Perhaps you would also claim that Marc received an appearance fee and that was the only reason he attended.

No - what I was picking up on was your somewhat bizarre claim that you'd like to see visits like these twice a week.

Shortly you'll have 23 Community Members all of whom have paid £500 each to 10000 hours. They'll be expecting support from the club. At 2 visits per week each community member would get a maximum of 5 visits in a year meaning that in effect they were paying 10000hours a £100 per visit appearance fee. Now of course that's without factoring in visits like this one to local schools, nurseries, Boys Brigades, Scouts, and other merit worthy organisations in the community who haven't yet become Community Members. In reality the frequency of these personal appearances will have to sit at a far higher rate all round.

Now a player may well be happy to make the odd visit free of charge but when they see the demand on them increase - as it will do to see the necessary SROIs - then you can bet your life they will be requesting travelling expenses and a fee to cover their time. After all this isn't a contracted activity. Once training finishes they usually are done for the day and can hit the golf club, pub, and some players will even have babysitting duties to perform at home. Why should they feel obliged to do these personal appearances for free when the CIC is getting paid?

These personal appearances are good for the CIC, they could also be good for the football club but will an elected football board sanction the covering of expenses and remuneration for these visits when it's the CIC that makes the immediate financial gain? Considering the nonsense over who takes what from the bar - I seriously doubt it.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Stuart Dickson

[steve_the_saint]

No - what I was picking up on was your somewhat bizarre claim that you'd like to see visits like these twice a week.

Shortly you'll have 23 Community Members all of whom have paid £500 each to 10000 hours. They'll be expecting support from the club. At 2 visits per week each community member would get a maximum of 5 visits in a year meaning that in effect they were paying 10000hours a £100 per visit appearance fee. Now of course that's without factoring in visits like this one to local schools, nurseries, Boys Brigades, Scouts, and other merit worthy organisations in the community who haven't yet become Community Members. In reality the frequency of these personal appearances will have to sit at a far higher rate all round.

Now a player may well be happy to make the odd visit free of charge but when they see the demand on them increase - as it will do to see the necessary SROIs - then you can bet your life they will be requesting travelling expenses and a fee to cover their time. After all this isn't a contracted activity. Once training finishes they usually are done for the day and can hit the golf club, pub, and some players will even have babysitting duties to perform at home. Why should they feel obliged to do these personal appearances for free when the CIC is getting paid?

These personal appearances are good for the CIC, they could also be good for the football club but will an elected football board sanction the covering of expenses and remuneration for these visits when it's the CIC that makes the immediate financial gain? Considering the nonsense over who takes what from the bar - I seriously doubt it.

[AgreeableTom]

I agree with the CIC

[bud77]

No - what I was picking up on was your somewhat bizarre claim that you'd like to see visits like these twice a week.

Shortly you'll have 23 Community Members all of whom have paid £500 each to 10000 hours. They'll be expecting support from the club. At 2 visits per week each community member would get a maximum of 5 visits in a year meaning that in effect they were paying 10000hours a £100 per visit appearance fee. Now of course that's without factoring in visits like this one to local schools, nurseries, Boys Brigades, Scouts, and other merit worthy organisations in the community who haven't yet become Community Members. In reality the frequency of these personal appearances will have to sit at a far higher rate all round.

Now a player may well be happy to make the odd visit free of charge but when they see the demand on them increase - as it will do to see the necessary SROIs - then you can bet your life they will be requesting travelling expenses and a fee to cover their time. After all this isn't a contracted activity. Once training finishes they usually are done for the day and can hit the golf club, pub, and some players will even have babysitting duties to perform at home. Why should they feel obliged to do these personal appearances for free when the CIC is getting paid?

These personal appearances are good for the CIC, they could also be good for the football club but will an elected football board sanction the covering of expenses and remuneration for these visits when it's the CIC that makes the immediate financial gain? Considering the nonsense over who takes what from the bar - I seriously doubt it.

Like any other club asset the CIC use, I'd expect the CIC, not the club, to pay player's expenses and any appearance fee. Do you really think that £500 a year is going to give community members unlimited access to the club ? For example do you think the church is paying £500 a year and getting use of the facilities 52 days a year or that or is more the case the £500 a year gives them access to the facilities at decent rates ?

[Stuart Dickson]

Like any other club asset the CIC use, I'd expect the CIC, not the club, to pay player's expenses and any appearance fee. Do you really think that £500 a year is going to give community members unlimited access to the club ? For example do you think the church is paying £500 a year and getting use of the facilities 52 days a year or that or is more the case the £500 a year gives them access to the facilities at decent rates ?

I haven't got a clue what the deal is with the church - maybe you do know - but yes, I would think that the church would get the facility for £500 a year. If that wasn't the case I would have thought RA would have mentioned the huge boost the rental income from the new tennent rather than focusing on the money that would be made from spin offs like weddings.

I dont expect unlimited access for the community members. What they do get would be outlined in an MOU, but again the value of what's on offer would have to far exceed the £500 fee otherwise how else would you expect to get committees full of Old Firm fans to sign up?

The point is though that fans of the club are going to have to show the mental dexterity to see why having those members in makes sound business sense because without the community members the whole CIC project fails on it's basic fundamentals.

[St. Sid]

No - what I was picking up on was your somewhat bizarre claim that you'd like to see visits like these twice a week.

Shortly you'll have 23 Community Members all of whom have paid £500 each to 10000 hours. They'll be expecting support from the club. At 2 visits per week each community member would get a maximum of 5 visits in a year meaning that in effect they were paying 10000hours a £100 per visit appearance fee. Now of course that's without factoring in visits like this one to local schools, nurseries, Boys Brigades, Scouts, and other merit worthy organisations in the community who haven't yet become Community Members. In reality the frequency of these personal appearances will have to sit at a far higher rate all round.

Now a player may well be happy to make the odd visit free of charge but when they see the demand on them increase - as it will do to see the necessary SROIs - then you can bet your life they will be requesting travelling expenses and a fee to cover their time. After all this isn't a contracted activity. Once training finishes they usually are done for the day and can hit the golf club, pub, and some players will even have babysitting duties to perform at home. Why should they feel obliged to do these personal appearances for free when the CIC is getting paid?

These personal appearances are good for the CIC, they could also be good for the football club but will an elected football board sanction the covering of expenses and remuneration for these visits when it's the CIC that makes the immediate financial gain? Considering the nonsense over who takes what from the bar - I seriously doubt it.

Once again the lawfud neurosis machine kicks into overdrive. Firstly you have taken a comment about wanting to see more positive publicity relating to players getting involved in the community and slotted it into some lawfud owned fantasy scenario. Immediately you are slabbering on about me wanting to see one player out of a squad of over twenty making a personal appearance. What I actually posted was that I would to see two published stories about these appearances - those would be the stories of interest. In reality I would like to see the players out in the community a lot more than that.

Over 20 players....makes for just one appearance a month per player. SMFC negotiates the players contracts, not the CIC. Each MoU is negotiated independently. As yet we have absolutely no information as to the nature of each organisation specific MoU.

So the only real question here is what level of madness are you on that you are trying to put numbers and costs against something that you know absolutely nothing about.

Said it long before the CIC came into the supports consciousness. Players contracts should include time spent in the community promoting the club at venues like schools, etc. If they are unwilling to do that withdraw the offer of a contract. We are a community club and that should be understood by the player from the off. F"k their golf, bookies, pool halls!!!

[pozbaird]

Over 20 players....makes for just one appearance a month per player.

Craig Samson is booked to go to Newcastle...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6725653.stm

[St. Sid]

Craig Samson is booked to go to Newcastle...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6725653.stm

So you've gone for a community membership then.

[pozbaird]

So you've gone for a community membership then.

Gingers like me thought CIC stood for Colour Isnae' Critical.

[Stuart Dickson]

Once again the lawfud neurosis machine kicks into overdrive. Firstly you have taken a comment about wanting to see more positive publicity relating to players getting involved in the community and slotted it into some lawfud owned fantasy scenario. Immediately you are slabbering on about me wanting to see one player out of a squad of over twenty making a personal appearance. What I actually posted was that I would to see two published stories about these appearances - those would be the stories of interest. In reality I would like to see the players out in the community a lot more than that.

Over 20 players....makes for just one appearance a month per player. SMFC negotiates the players contracts, not the CIC. Each MoU is negotiated independently. As yet we have absolutely no information as to the nature of each organisation specific MoU.

So the only real question here is what level of madness are you on that you are trying to put numbers and costs against something that you know absolutely nothing about.

Said it long before the CIC came into the supports consciousness. Players contracts should include time spent in the community promoting the club at venues like schools, etc. If they are unwilling to do that withdraw the offer of a contract. We are a community club and that should be understood by the player from the off. F"k their golf, bookies, pool halls!!!

At least you've moved from you assertion that all visits would be done for free by players to now saying it would have to form part of their contract.

[TsuMirren]

Players contracts should include time spent in the community promoting the club at venues like schools, etc.

What utter nonsense!

[bud77]

I haven't got a clue what the deal is with the church - maybe you do know - but yes, I would think that the church would get the facility for £500 a year. If that wasn't the case I would have thought RA would have mentioned the huge boost the rental income from the new tennent rather than focusing on the money that would be made from spin offs like weddings.

I dont expect unlimited access for the community members. What they do get would be outlined in an MOU, but again the value of what's on offer would have to far exceed the £500 fee otherwise how else would you expect to get committees full of Old Firm fans to sign up?

The point is though that fans of the club are going to have to show the mental dexterity to see why having those members in makes sound business sense because without the community members the whole CIC project fails on it's basic fundamentals.

Any current agreement with the church is between the church and SMFC. My understanding is the church are using the facilities on a trial basis to see how it works, their old premises are, well, old and expensive with upkeep costs and heating. So what they will probably get out of an MOU is reduced overall costs but I seriously doubt that will be at £500 a year to use the facilities on at least a weekly basis and since that's either St Mirren's own facilities or the member's bar located inside Saint Mirren's facilities the club will be entitled to a rental charge for it. As for other MOU's I couldn't say as we don't know who will all be joining but they will be of mutual benefit to the organization and the club and until we know who's joining we have no idea how many might like a player to appear at certain functions, after all I don't think a church will require a player attends their meetings.

[St. Sid]

What utter nonsense!

I don't see why. We can put whatever we like in a contract. Players that come through the St Mirren youth programme gt lots of benefits from St Mirren being a community club including courses at Reid Kerr. Why shouldn't we have something in their contract stating that they should carry out a couple of community related visits a month after training? Far better if the players volunteer like Marc did though.

[TsuMirren]

I don't see why. We can put whatever we like in a contract. Players that come through the St Mirren youth programme gt lots of benefits from St Mirren being a community club including courses at Reid Kerr. Why shouldn't we have something in their contract stating that they should carry out a couple of community related visits a month after training? Far better if the players volunteer like Marc did though.

Better to just make them aware it's by rotation and pretty much the least expected, no need to put it in their contracts.

[St. Sid]

Better to just make them aware it's by rotation and pretty much the least expected, no need to put it in their contracts.

Totally agree. It is all about the culture of the club and the behaviour of their leaders. Look at wee Danny turning out for a a coaching session with kids in Fife and delivering a wee social guidance speech on the perils of inbreeding.

We have long described ourselves as a community club, but now we are actually going to be one. We have a manager that fits the new culture of the club perfectly. It should be a no brainer for the players to get more involved in supporting the community side of the clubs activities.

[Seaside Nipper]

Totally agree. It is all about the culture of the club and the behaviour of their leaders. Look at wee Danny turning out for a a coaching session with kids in Fife and delivering a wee social guidance speech on the perils of inbreeding.

We have long described ourselves as a community club, but now we are actually going to be one. We have a manager that fits the new culture of the club perfectly. It should be a no brainer for the players to get more involved in supporting the community side of the clubs activities.

When is the manager going to relocate to the community then ? That would really be a significant commitment

[Stuart Dickson]

Any current agreement with the church is between the church and SMFC. My understanding is the church are using the facilities on a trial basis to see how it works, their old premises are, well, old and expensive with upkeep costs and heating. So what they will probably get out of an MOU is reduced overall costs but I seriously doubt that will be at £500 a year to use the facilities on at least a weekly basis and since that's either St Mirren's own facilities or the member's bar located inside Saint Mirren's facilities the club will be entitled to a rental charge for it. As for other MOU's I couldn't say as we don't know who will all be joining but they will be of mutual benefit to the organization and the club and until we know who's joining we have no idea how many might like a player to appear at certain functions, after all I don't think a church will require a player attends their meetings.

Maybe your right Bud. I certainly don't know otherwise. I just got the impression that no rent was being taken because anytime I heard RA talk about it there was no mention of rental income for St Mirren. Instead he would focus on the benefits of hosting parties, wakes and weddings for the church congregation.

It wouldn't be that unusual to offer out the premises for free though. Plenty of halls and bars will do that because of the profit to be made elsewhere - through catering and bar sales (although in this case I'd imagine it would more likely be tea and coffee sales)

Edited to add - just as a thought Bud, how much do you think renting a hall in Ferguslie Park for 104 hours per year is worth?

Edited June 23, 2011 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Better to just make them aware it's by rotation and pretty much the least expected, no need to put it in their contracts.

Why?

I get that a rotation system works currently but I suspect you will see a much larger demand placed on the players in the near future. If the club isn't going to compensate those players for travel expenses at the very least and it isn't in their contract then what's there to stop players just refusing to do it. And if they do refuse how does that leave the status of any MoU that suggests that players will make visits.

St Mirren haven't got a great record of PA's under their current system. What makes you think that will change just because the parent company is now a CIC?

[Stuart Dickson]

We have long described ourselves as a community club, but now we are actually going to be one.

You've described yourselves as a community club and then told the community to f**k off as a response almost every request. Your parent company is now going to be a Community Interest Company with a regulated requirement to work for the benefit of the community. Unfortunately - as many of these discussions show - there seems to be a large number of St Mirren supporters who will be individual members who have absolutely no concept what that means in reality. As I've said, the fact that those people will be electing their representatives means this is where the weakness is in the business.

[St. Sid]

You've described yourselves as a community club and then told the community to f**k off as a response almost every request.

Not the community lawfud, just some fat miscreant from muthawell. The community is already well served, it is just that our local media haven't reported it. We appear to be managing the media much more professionally these days. I reckon that is because quite a few of the Buddies working in the media have bought into the Community aspect of the CIC and have been able to get closer to the club as a result.

Next thing you know we'll be getting on with referees. The positive possibilities are endless.

I see you are already getting into disgruntled malconent mode and the CIC hasn't even been formally created yet.

[Stuart Dickson]

Not the community lawfud, just some fat miscreant from muthawell. The community is already well served, it is just that our local media haven't reported it. We appear to be managing the media much more professionally these days. I reckon that is because quite a few of the Buddies working in the media have bought into the Community aspect of the CIC and have been able to get closer to the club as a result.

Next thing you know we'll be getting on with referees. The positive possibilities are endless.

I see you are already getting into disgruntled malconent mode and the CIC hasn't even been formally created yet.

You'd be surprised Sid, but when I've asked for something it's generally been delivered precisely cause I'm a "fat miscreant from muthawell". I was a bit disappointed to hear recently though that despite St Mirren having had four of our players on trial at Ralston this season, and me having raised a motion that our club become a CIC Community Member, they didn't have the courtesy to even respond to our Minutes Secretary when he e-mailed them asking if the club would be willing to consider donating a raffle prize for the Sportsmans Dinner. We'll call that a blip though. Where I hear things aren't so good is when I talk to fellow coaches from the sides in the P&D leagues. In the most recent case a club organiser told me that she had written to the club several times recently all with absolutely no reply over her campaign to save juvenile football in her region which is very local to Paisley. All she was looking for was some words of support! I put her on to Richard Atkinson and I think he sorted it but that's the kind of response the club has been reportedly very guilty of over a period of in excess of 20 years!

A former coach of mine in Renfrew once told me that St Mirren only took an interest in local clubs if they wanted their players. Any requests they had made for support or help over all the years he'd been involved at the club had being ignored so they simply gave up trying. Another ex-teammate of mine who helped run a team in Cardonald told me that r*ngers would provide them with players visits, tickets for tours of the stadium etc, etc, but that they would never get a reply from St Mirren if they asked them for support.

Those bridges are going to have to be rebuilt before there's much trust flowing back St Mirren's way. I've said many times I want the CIC to succeed because I want to see clubs in Scottish Football making the effort to really become Community Clubs instead of just spouting that on their marketing bullshit and McDonald's Application Forms.