TsuMirren Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Ok Kenny, lets say there is an issue at the club. Your Centre Half has been pumping the Right Backs wife. Now one refuses to play football with the other. You've got an offer on the table well below perceived market value but it's obvious that if you are in full possession of the facts accepting the bid is the best thing you can do. How would you deal with that? E-mail all 700 odd members to give them all the sordid details of what has been an embarrassing episode for all concerned and hope there isn't a journalist amongst them? How would you get them to accept that a player rated at £200k+ should be sold for £50,000? You request that the players puts in a transfer request, that usually turns the opinion of the majority of fans. By the time you try firefighting some idiot with an insider mate will have posted the stort anyway. That said, it's not something that cropped up during my time on the board at Ebbsfleet. We were too busy handling things like missing HMRC payments, accepting loans and former Directors bleating on about "this isn't what was promised" whilst totally refusing to live up to his/her side of the bargain. There's a hell of a lot that goes on in football, seriously doubt there's a users guide section about players banging each others wife. How did r*ngers handle the alleged behaviour of one of their Italians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Gary - I've edited that post and hopefully made it clearer. The 10000hours documents are online and the structures are pretty clear. St Mirren Ltd will be a trading arm for the parent CIC group. 10000hours isn't going to stop dead at St Mirren. Yeh, I've been having a look. The very first line of their information booklet states "Do you want a successful St. Mirren" Absolutely everything on their website talks about achieving success for St. Mirren as this will benefit the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Sorry I'll edit this. Gary - you've got the structure wrong. The CIC will own a controlling stake in St Mirren Ltd, it's not the other way around. The CIC is the parent group. Yeh, I'm fully aware of that fact. Any profits generated will be reinvested in the community, in facilities, projects etc. Completely wrong - I have no idea where you are getting that from and, frankly, its complete bollocks. If you look at the CIC regulator website itself you will even see case studies of CICs where the members themselves pocket dividends from the profits of their business. The sole mission of 10000hours is to buy out the majority shareholding in St. Mirren FC Ltd in order to give the community an in interest in the club and to then make the club as successful as it can. Its got absolutely nothing at all to do with generating profits to reinvest in the community for facilities, projects, etc. Absolutely nothing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 You request that the players puts in a transfer request, that usually turns the opinion of the majority of fans. By the time you try firefighting some idiot with an insider mate will have posted the stort anyway. That said, it's not something that cropped up during my time on the board at Ebbsfleet. We were too busy handling things like missing HMRC payments, accepting loans and former Directors bleating on about "this isn't what was promised" whilst totally refusing to live up to his/her side of the bargain. There's a hell of a lot that goes on in football, seriously doubt there's a users guide section about players banging each others wife. How did r*ngers handle the alleged behaviour of one of their Italians? I appreciate there is a lot that goes on in a football club and that most of it never makes the press and is not in the public interest. That's why I'm making the point that I don't think it is a good idea as a long term strategy to have to share that information with members to get them to act in the way you want them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Yeh, I'm fully aware of that fact. Completely wrong - I have no idea where you are getting that from and, frankly, its complete bollocks. If you look at the CIC regulator website itself you will even see case studies of CICs where the members themselves pocket dividends from the profits of their business. The sole mission of 10000hours is to buy out the majority shareholding in St. Mirren FC Ltd in order to give the community an in interest in the club and to then make the club as successful as it can. Its got absolutely nothing at all to do with generating profits to reinvest in the community for facilities, projects, etc. Absolutely nothing at all. Ok Gary - I'll let you keep your misconceptions and in a years time we'll see which one of us was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Ok Gary - I'll let you keep your misconceptions and in a years time we'll see which one of us was right. Code: unable to argue further Ok Stuart - I'll let you keep your misconceptions and in a years time we'll see which one of us was right. (BTW - remind us again how right you were about Gilmour killing the club and the team not getting ino the SPL and then being relegated every season thereafter?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garzo Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 So if the mission isn't to make St. Mirren successful (as presumably that is the benefit to the community), what is the mission? I'll make this up as i go along to fit in with your mindset... You do not understand the model. The mission as far as I can see is to make the CIC as successful as possible, no specific mission for St Mirren. The football club is just a conduit to providing community benefit. The converse may not be the main driver behind the project. All CIC monies remain as CIC monies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) I'll make this up as i go along to fit in with your mindset... You do not understand the model. The mission as far as I can see is to make the CIC as successful as possible, no specific mission for St Mirren. The football club is just a conduit to providing community benefit. The converse may not be the main driver behind the project. All CIC monies remain as CIC monies. There is no specific mention of St. Mirren? The VERY FIRST line in the initial information document on the 10000hours website states: "Do you want a successful St. Mirren". There are 33 specific mentions of St. Mirren in that document. Its you who clearly does not understand the model. Edited June 16, 2011 by Gary Blues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Code: unable to argue further Ok Stuart - I'll let you keep your misconceptions and in a years time we'll see which one of us was right. (BTW - remind us again how right you were about Gilmour killing the club and the team not getting ino the SPL and then being relegated every season thereafter?) Oh I could argue it all the way with you Gary but I think I'd be straying into territory where I would be betraying trust. I'd prefer to leave it at the point where I say you are wrong and if I'm wrong you can come back and have a go at me in 12 months time. As for Gilmour, I think it's self evident that the club has stagnated despite selling it's principle asset - and the failings in the clubs youth development, which was always my main bone of contention, has been abundantly apparent in recent years. The average attendance never reached the heights that Gilmour promised Ton Hendrie or Gus McPherson and the club failed miserably to appeal to youngsters in the local community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Oh I could argue it all the way with you Gary but I think I'd be straying into territory where I would be betraying trust. I'd prefer to leave it at the point where I say you are wrong and if I'm wrong you can come back and have a go at me in 12 months time. Dear oh dear. Your insider knowledge lines were always the best. As for Gilmour, I think it's self evident that the club has stagnated despite selling it's principle asset Mmmmm, Let's rewind the start point to where he took over a club that was £3.3 million in the red, was on the verge of going out of business, had a falling down stadium, no training ground and had spent a number of years in the First Division. The average attendance never reached the heights that Gilmour promised Ton Hendrie or Gus McPherson What promise was this? Can you provide some figures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Taken from the 10000hours information document: What is the idea behind 10000hours?The plan is that as a CIC we can access specialised funding, including soft loans, grants, patient capital and social investment, for the purchase of community assets, in this case the control of the assets of St Mirren FC via the purchase of the majority shareholding. Once the 52% is controlled by 10000hours, then the various partners involved can work together with the club as the hub, in order to benefit not only the club, but the wider community. There are quite clearly 2 seperate parts to this and in my opinion, the mission of the CIC is: 1. To buy a 52% controlling interest in St. Mirren FC and 2. Work to benefit the club firstly and also the wider community. It seems quite clear to me. Is Stuart Dickson saying that what is in this document is not true? Is garzo saying that this paragraph has no specific mention of St. Mirren? Edited June 16, 2011 by Gary Blues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Dear oh dear. Your insider knowledge lines were always the best. Mmmmm, Let's rewind the start point to where he took over a club that was £3.3 million in the red, was on the verge of going out of business, had a falling down stadium, no training ground and had spent a number of years in the First Division. What promise was this? Can you provide some figures? That's the £3.3 which was initially £2.7m and which was reduced to £1.7m. You shouldn't believe everything you read in the PDE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Taken from the 10000hours information document: There are quite clearly 2 seperate parts to this and in my opinion, the mission of the CIC is: 1. To buy a 52% controlling interest in St. Mirren FC and 2. Work to benefit the club firstly and also the wider community. It seems quite clear to me. Is Stuart Dickson saying that what is in this document is not true? Is garzo saying that this paragraph has no specific mention of St. Mirren? Where exactly does it say this? Edited June 16, 2011 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 That's the £3.3 which was initially £2.7m and which was reduced to £1.7m. You shouldn't believe everything you read in the PDE. No. Its the £3.3m which is shown in the club's annual Report & Accounts. Are you suggesting that the auditors have signed off falsified accounts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Where exactly does it say this? In the quote in my post. I'll give it again as you appear to have difficulty reading. Once the 52% is controlled by 10000hours, then the various partners involved can work together with the “club as the hub”, in order to benefit not only the club, but the wider community. As I stated, its my opinion that this means that they will be working to, first of all, benefit the club (the club does get the mention before the wider community) and then the wider community. My opinion may be wrong but I can't really see how that sentence could be understood differently. Edited June 16, 2011 by Gary Blues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garzo Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Taken from the 10000hours information document: There are quite clearly 2 seperate parts to this and in my opinion, the mission of the CIC is: 1. To buy a 52% controlling interest in St. Mirren FC and 2. Work to benefit the club firstly and also the wider community. It seems quite clear to me. Is Stuart Dickson saying that what is in this document is not true? Is garzo saying that this paragraph has no specific mention of St. Mirren? read carefully please never said St Mirren were not mentioned - I said mission - no mission for St Mirren its all about the CIC, its all about the community, the club(football team) in my opinion will be secondary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 read carefully please never said St Mirren were not mentioned - I said mission - no mission for St Mirren The very first line states: "Do you want a successful St. Mirren". In my opinion that indicates a mission. Maybe I haven't read that carefully enough mind you. its all about the CIC, its all about the community, the club(football team) in my opinion will be secondary Again, looking at the document, it doesn't seem that way in my opinion. If what you are saying is correct you'd think the front page would be illustrated with nice pictures of the community in Paisley, etc. However, what it shows is a huge picture the St. Mirren FC club badge and photos of St. Mirren players, past & present. Again, in my opinion its all about the club and how the club can benefit the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 read carefully please never said St Mirren were not mentioned - I said mission - no mission for St Mirren The very first line states: "Do you want a successful St. Mirren". In my opinion that indicates a mission. Maybe I haven't read that carefully enough mind you. its all about the CIC, its all about the community, the club(football team) in my opinion will be secondary Again, looking at the document, it doesn't seem that way in my opinion. If what you are saying is correct you'd think the front page would be illustrated with nice pictures of the community in Paisley, etc. However, what it shows is a huge picture the St. Mirren FC club badge and photos of St. Mirren players, past & present. Again, in my opinion its all about the club and how the club can benefit the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garzo Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 The very first line states: "Do you want a successful St. Mirren". In my opinion that indicates a mission. Maybe I haven't read that carefully enough mind you. Again, looking at the document, it doesn't seem that way in my opinion. If what you are saying is correct you'd think the front page would be illustrated with nice pictures of the community in Paisley, etc. However, what it shows is a huge picture the St. Mirren FC club badge and photos of St. Mirren players, past & present. Again, in my opinion its all about the club and how the club can benefit the community. respect your opinion, but heard you the first time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 What is the idea behind 10000hours?The plan is that as a CIC we can access specialised funding, including soft loans, grants, patient capital and social investment, for the purchase of community assets, in this case the control of the assets of St Mirren FC via the purchase of the majority shareholding. Once the 52% is controlled by 10000hours, then the various partners involved can work together with the “club as the hub”, in order to benefit not only the club, but the wider community. Ok Gary lets look at it again....try it this way. The plan is that as a CIC we can access specialised funding, including soft loans,grants, patient capital and social investment, for the purchase of community assets, in this case the control of the assets of St Mirren FC via the purchase of the majority shareholding. Now think about this again. It doesn't say they have accessed special funding for the purchase of 52% of the shares of St Mirren. It says that as a CIC it can access special funding and that "in this case" they would do so to "gain control of the assets" of St Mirren FC. Once the 52% is controlled by 10000hours, then the various partnersinvolved can work together with the “club as the hub”, in order to benefit not only the club, but the wider community This does not mean benefiting that making the club brilliant will benefit the community. Far from it. What it says is that the CIC, the Corporate Members, The Community Members and the Individual members will work together for each others benefit. Now you tell me did you really think that businesses were queuing up to donate £10,000 per annum to make St Mirren a better football team? Did you really think that organisations with no St Mirren supporters on their committee were queuing up to donate £500 per year each to help sign a new forward? Think of it this way, 10000hours will be opening the cupboard doors and saying to the community this is what we've got. You can use it if you want, but we ask that you tell us what you can give us in return. The idea that the CIC is going to take membership fees off corporate and community members and give nothing in return is just laughable. I don't know how you managed to come to that conclusion from that short paragraph you've quoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Ok Gary lets look at it again....try it this way. Now think about this again. It doesn't say they have accessed special funding for the purchase of 52% of the shares of St Mirren. It says that as a CIC it can access special funding and that "in this case" they would do so to "gain control of the assets" of St Mirren FC. This does not mean benefiting that making the club brilliant will benefit the community. Far from it. What it says is that the CIC, the Corporate Members, The Community Members and the Individual members will work together for each others benefit. Now you tell me did you really think that businesses were queuing up to donate £10,000 per annum to make St Mirren a better football team? Did you really think that organisations with no St Mirren supporters on their committee were queuing up to donate £500 per year each to help sign a new forward? Think of it this way, 10000hours will be opening the cupboard doors and saying to the community this is what we've got. You can use it if you want, but we ask that you tell us what you can give us in return. The idea that the CIC is going to take membership fees off corporate and community members and give nothing in return is just laughable. Dear oh dear. Some quality backtracking in that post Stuart. You began by saying that it was all about the community and now you are saying that it is about working "together for each others benefit" and giving something in return. Let's look at it this way - you are desperate to try and make out that the CIC is ALL about the community and not about St. Mirren. You are wrong. I don't know how you managed to come to that conclusion from that short paragraph you've quoted. Everything you've posted here backs up my conclusion from that short paragraph! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 respect your opinion, but heard you the first time yeh, I heard you the first time as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Dear oh dear. Some quality backtracking in that post Stuart. You began by saying that it was all about the community and now you are saying that it is about working "together for each others benefit" and giving something in return. Let's look at it this way - you are desperate to try and make out that the CIC is ALL about the community and not about St. Mirren. You are wrong. Everything you've posted here backs up my conclusion from that short paragraph! f**k off Gary.... You've made a c**t of yourself on here and were backtracking in your last post. Your opinion is worth f**k all. Oh and it will be about the community first, club second. But you'll understand that by this time next year when you can come back grovelling.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 f**k off Gary.... You've made a c**t of yourself on here and were backtracking in your last post. Your opinion is worth f**k all. Oh and it will be about the community first, club second. But you'll understand that by this time next year when you can come back grovelling.... Deary me, reduced to petty insults now. Don't cry about it Stuart. "Once the 52% is controlled by 10000hours, then the various partnersinvolved can work together with the “club as the hub”, in order to benefit not only the club, but the wider community" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Deary me, reduced to petty insults now. Don't cry about it Stuart. Aye I can consider myself hooked. I should have known really. No-one could really have been as stupid as you were making yourself out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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