1ST CIC SCENARIO

[FTOF]

That's the £3.3 which was initially £2.7m and which was reduced to £1.7m. You shouldn't believe everything you read in the PDE.

No. Its the £3.3m which is shown in the club's annual Report & Accounts.

Are you suggesting that the auditors have signed off falsified accounts?

I see the obese one has employed his usual tactic of ignoring posts when he's proved wrong.

Edited June 16, 2011 by FTOF

[St. Sid]

f**k off Gary....

You've made a c**t of yourself on here and were backtracking in your last post. Your opinion is worth f**k all. Oh and it will be about the community first, club second. But you'll understand that by this time next year when you can come back grovelling....

....and so the CIC sulk began...

[reborn saint]

And in 2009 the members voted to dump Nike after 1 year and got their kit instead from Vandanel

The problems associated with MyFC are outlined pretty well on here

http://soccerlens.com/ebbsfleet-and-myfc-vote-to-stay-alive/30224/

Obviously I wasn't a member Kenny, but I'd maintain that a model that gives the fans a final ill informed say on who to sign and who to sell is a recipe for complete disaster.

Stuart.. I think it is clear that the cic at St Mirren dosen't mirror any model that has gone before. If it is a success or failure it will be on it's own merits and will be a truly original Scottish model.

[steve_the_saint]

The very first line states:

"Do you want a successful St. Mirren".

In my opinion that indicates a mission.

Maybe I haven't read that carefully enough mind you.

Again, looking at the document, it doesn't seem that way in my opinion.

If what you are saying is correct you'd think the front page would be illustrated with nice pictures of the community in Paisley, etc.

However, what it shows is a huge picture the St. Mirren FC club badge and photos of St. Mirren players, past & present.

Again, in my opinion its all about the club and how the club can benefit the community.

Well quite clearly it's got St. Mirren logos etc. because they are appealing to St. Miirren fans to join the CIC! If they put pictures of the community in Paisley, it wouldn't be of as much interest to saints fans, would it? I doubt you're that naive that you didn't realise this?

The CIC will take care of itself. St. Mirren will take care of itself.

The CIC will not be giving its profits to St. Mirren because they are both separate entities.

The CIC will not be helping St. Mirren directly. The non-St. Mirren supporting members of the CIC and the events put on by them will generate interest in the club. That is how the CIC will help make a successful St. Mirren, ie how the community can benefite the club, not the other way about.

But rest assured, your money will be going to the CIC - not the club.

[Stuart Dickson]

Stuart.. I think it is clear that the cic at St Mirren dosen't mirror any model that has gone before. If it is a success or failure it will be on it's own merits and will be a truly original Scottish model.

Are you saying that the 10000hours CIC model will allow ill informed fans the power to veto the club boards decision to sign or release players?

[Vambo57]

I'll make this up as i go along to fit in with your mindset...

You do not understand the model.

The mission as far as I can see is to make the CIC as successful as possible, no specific mission for St Mirren.

The football club is just a conduit to providing community benefit.

The converse may not be the main driver behind the project.

All CIC monies remain as CIC monies.

...and all SMFC monies remain SMFC monies.

[Stuart Dickson]

...and all SMFC monies remain SMFC monies.

Hmmm, yes in the context that you mean, but I hope not in it's entirety.

To explain lets take the example of a charity of some sort that has become a community member of the CIC. It's very likely that at least one of the items on their MOU would be that they get access to some of the club assets to use for fundraising purposes. Now that might take the form of use of a piece of equipment owned by St Mirren Ltd, or maybe a signed football shirt, or free hospitality tickets - all minor expenses to the football club but expenses that would have to be funded from the St Mirren Ltd budget whilst the CIC would retain the £500 annual membership fee and the benefit from the SROI.

[steve_the_saint]

Hmmm, yes in the context that you mean, but I hope not in it's entirety.

To explain lets take the example of a charity of some sort that has become a community member of the CIC. It's very likely that at least one of the items on their MOU would be that they get access to some of the club assets to use for fundraising purposes. Now that might take the form of use of a piece of equipment owned by St Mirren Ltd, or maybe a signed football shirt, or free hospitality tickets - all minor expenses to the football club but expenses that would have to be funded from the St Mirren Ltd budget whilst the CIC would retain the £500 annual membership fee and the benefit from the SROI.

Will it not be more a case of very little - if any - expense to the club?

I thought part of the appeal that its maximizing the use of st. Mirrens assets - be that premises, equipment, personnel etc. So otherwise the assets would be lying redundant if they weren't going towards the cic.

So rather than money spent by the club, its a case of money not gained - ie, we won't be any worse off.

[garzo]

Will it not be more a case of very little - if any - expense to the club?

I thought part of the appeal that its maximizing the use of st. Mirrens assets - be that premises, equipment, personnel etc. So otherwise the assets would be lying redundant if they weren't going towards the cic.

So rather than money spent by the club, its a case of money not gained - ie, we won't be any worse off.

puzzled by this,

I'm hoping someone from the new ownership structure can set the tone for the direction the football club will take.

What are their aspirations for the football club:

Where do the priorities lie and what is the primary focus?

Win/ Top 3/ Top 6/ bottom 6/ cup win every now and then/ relegation - does it matter,

Is the vision to develop through the youth system and sell players on?

[Stuart Dickson]

Double Post! Sorry! Screwed up when editing.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Will it not be more a case of very little - if any - expense to the club?

I thought part of the appeal that its maximizing the use of st. Mirrens assets - be that premises, equipment, personnel etc. So otherwise the assets would be lying redundant if they weren't going towards the cic.

So rather than money spent by the club, its a case of money not gained - ie, we won't be any worse off.

Yeah it will probably be a case of very little expense to the club and the benefits should outweigh the costs considerably but with community members now involved St Mirren Ltd will definitely need to be far more generous in it's donation of auction and raffle prizes than it previously has been. And it may also be the case that the cost and the outcome might be difficult for the St Mirren Ltd board to measure.

To give an example - probably the most sought after item the club could offer would be a pair of hospitality tickets for St Mirren v One Of the Old Firm. The cost of that is advertised on the official website at £300 but if those tickets remained unsold it's got no value at all. Donate that to a kids football team and it probably would raise them around £400 - £500 in an auction which would see them recoup their annual membership in one swoop. The financial benefit to St Mirren might not be immediately obvious but closer links with local juvenile clubs means a market of football friendly kids that you can hopefully attract to St Mirren whether it's as supporters or to the various Community Coaching programmes during school holidays. It also means you can tap into their coaches experience to scout talent in their leagues on your behalf, you could bring them on board regarding volume discounts on kit purchases, use them to run football academies for St Mirren, etc, etc. And in the meantime the CIC is getting a membership fee and a Community Group to work with towards getting SROI.

My concern is that there are fans who will be individual members who want the benefits of being in a CIC but they simply won't accept that to gain they need to put out. If they get their wish, and the elected board act in a manner that they will push for it will simply divide the club from the community even more. At the moment community groups don't trust the football club - and with good cause. St Mirren FC has been an awkward partner now for more than 13 years - happy to grab and take but not willing to do anything in return. The CIC model gives the club a chance to redress this, but if the wrong people are elected and the wrong agenda is followed then it will do more harm than good.

[St. Sid]

Hmmm, yes in the context that you mean, but I hope not in it's entirety.

To explain lets take the example of a charity of some sort that has become a community member of the CIC. It's very likely that at least one of the items on their MOU would be that they get access to some of the club assets to use for fundraising purposes. Now that might take the form of use of a piece of equipment owned by St Mirren Ltd, or maybe a signed football shirt, or free hospitality tickets - all minor expenses to the football club but expenses that would have to be funded from the St Mirren Ltd budget whilst the CIC would retain the £500 annual membership fee and the benefit from the SROI.

It looks like creepybawz is finally emerging from cover.

That sort of example has been done to death.

Yes, one of the advantages to the community members will be that they get to run their fundraisers at the club. That might well involve the community member getting a signed shirt, free tickets that don't cost the club anything or even an ex-player / current player attending the event - again no cost to the club. They still pay for the use of the facilities and St Mirren get the bar takings. This all means additional income for SMFC and not cost.

[Stuart Dickson]

It looks like creepybawz is finally emerging from cover.

That sort of example has been done to death.

Yes, one of the advantages to the community members will be that they get to run their fundraisers at the club. That might well involve the community member getting a signed shirt, free tickets that don't cost the club anything or even an ex-player / current player attending the event - again no cost to the club. They still pay for the use of the facilities and St Mirren get the bar takings. This all means additional income for SMFC and not cost.

An ex player attending won't cost the club? That's interesting. Is that in their contract that expired years ago? We're hosting our Sportsmans Dinner tonight. Frank McAvennie is a speaker there. Do you think he's waive his fee if I quote you to him?

I don't get how you think it's creepy that someone who supports the CIC would want to correct people who have the wrong perception. It should be, and it has been, all open and above board. Any spend along this line that St Mirren have to make will be speculative but it's likely to be a spend that brings in more than it costs in the medium to long term. It's a good thing and there's no need to hide it IMO.

[St. Sid]

An ex player attending won't cost the club? That's interesting. Is that in their contract that expired years ago? We're hosting our Sportsmans Dinner tonight. Frank McAvennie is a speaker there. Do you think he's waive his fee if I quote you to him?

I don't get how you think it's creepy that someone who supports the CIC would want to correct people who have the wrong perception. It should be, and it has been, all open and above board. Any spend along this line that St Mirren have to make will be speculative but it's likely to be a spend that brings in more than it costs in the medium to long term. It's a good thing and there's no need to hide it IMO.

Ex-Saints players offer their services all the time, as do many Saints fans. That would an alien concept to you with your madcap Saints exploitation money making schemes that the club pointed and laughed at.

It is creepy because it is malicious misinformation - exactly the same malicious misinformation that you are famous for. That must be about ten years now you have spent posting malicious nonsense about a club you claim to care nothing about. Nothing quite as sad as a fat wummin scorned.

[Stuart Dickson]

Ex-Saints players offer their services all the time, as do many Saints fans. That would an alien concept to you with your madcap Saints exploitation money making schemes that the club pointed and laughed at.

It is creepy because it is malicious misinformation - exactly the same malicious misinformation that you are famous for. That must be about ten years now you have spent posting malicious nonsense about a club you claim to care nothing about. Nothing quite as sad as a fat wummin scorned.

Ah OK, so I can quote you to big Macca???

[St. Sid]

Ah OK, so I can quote you to big Macca???

Yes.

Stu, there is a company that exploits both ex-footballers and managers, and silly people like you. They make a profit out of both of you. I regularly attend these sort of fundraisers in my work and you see the same old faces with the same old shite patter more often than not telling the same shite jokes and anecdotes that they all trade with each other to use.

By contrast I also involved in multiple charities where genuine people who genuinely support the charity turn up and do their bit for nothing. They are always infinitely better than the bought in profiteering wasters.

McAvennie might not want to offer his services for free. That is up to him. Other ex-players and current players will be more than happy to support the club, especially if they have a particular interest in the organisation trying to fund raise.

For a fat Stu-dick preaching to everyone about community you have a very strange perspective on it. It appears to be about what YOU can make out of it, rather than what you can do for the community.

[reborn saint]

Ah OK, so I can quote you to big Macca???

Macca is a total legend. He always quotes the Saints when interviewed about West Ham, c*ltic and Scotland. Whether he would take a fee or not for an event is open to question and as you are obviously best of buddies why not ask him. I have taken fees in the past from another St Mirren legend....Tommy Turner.

[Big Fras]

Macca is a total legend. He always quotes the Saints when interviewed about West Ham, c*ltic and Scotland. Whether he would take a fee or not for an event is open to question and as you are obviously best of buddies why not ask him. I have taken fees in the past from another St Mirren legend....Tommy Turner.

Macca earns a decent crust from after-dinner speaking these days. However, I can assure you from personal experience that if called upon to help out the Buds, as long as the situation was explained properly, he would be very well disposed towards doing us a favour. Don't be fooled by the tabloid image. He's a lot wiser these days, and a very nice chap indeed, and although c*ltic are his first love, he holds St.Mirren FC a lot dearer to his heart than is represented in the press.

[reborn saint]

Macca earns a decent crust from after-dinner speaking these days. However, I can assure you from personal experience that if called upon to help out the Buds, as long as the situation was explained properly, he would be very well disposed towards doing us a favour. Don't be fooled by the tabloid image. He's a lot wiser these days, and a very nice chap indeed, and although c*ltic are his first love, he holds St.Mirren FC a lot dearer to his heart than is represented in the press.

Cheers Fras ....Macca has always been keen to mention his time at St Mirren even when his time at love street was overlooked. He has always taken time to state his fond memories of being a St Mirren player at every opportunity and to my mind that makes him a star! Whether he needs paid or not I would still turn up to hear him speak. My hunch is he would do it for free.

Edited June 17, 2011 by reborn saint

[Stuart Dickson]

The man lives in Newcastle and you guys think he'd travel to Paisley for free to speak at a dinner being held for numerous kids football team as a fundraiser?

I'm sure he would help out any charity that he holds dear to himself but what would a kids team from Wishaw mean to him?

As for exploitation Sid maybe ex players are being exploited - they certainly would be if 10000hours was expecting them to turn up and work for free- but we certainly haven't been. £8,800 profit last year with Rough and Gahagan. I don't know the figures yet but it was a complete sell out again-267 people- last night for Strang and McAvennie.

And being in it for myself? Nonsense! What would I possibly gain from a fundraiser for a charity? However I do know that Community Members will be in the CIC who wont give a f**k about St Mirren who will be expecting a good return on their investment.

Finally, McAvennie was excellent last night as was Sandy Strang. Both did plenty of St Mirren stories and jokes. I'd heartily recommend both to any charity and if St Mirren can get them for free it'll be worth your £500 membership fee alone

[davidg]

It looks like creepybawz is finally emerging from cover.

That sort of example has been done to death.

Yes, one of the advantages to the community members will be that they get to run their fundraisers at the club. That might well involve the community member getting a signed shirt, free tickets that don't cost the club anything or even an ex-player / current player attending the event - again no cost to the club. They still pay for the use of the facilities and St Mirren get the bar takings. This all means additional income for SMFC and not cost.

St Mirren would not get the bar takings.

[faraway saint]

St Mirren would not get the bar takings.

Nice new avator Davido, you're even wee'er than me.

Back on topic...........................I agree.

[bud77]

Here's a second CIC topic and quite relevant today. I have just been looking at another thread about the increases in hire of football pitches by Renfrewshire council and the planned protest for today. As this could affect the community by forcing some teams to close due to the increased fees and leavings kids with less things to do and it could also potentially affect the club with less boys playing football so a decrease in possible players of the future, is it something the CIC should get involved in and, if so, what should they do ?

Personally I think the CIC and club should get involved with it and should use any council contacts they have to get an open and frank discussion between the council and the boys clubs but I'd also have liked to have seen players being encouraged to go along to the protest to show support for the boys clubs and gain more publicity for it.

[dardo]

St Mirren would not get the bar takings.

According to Richard atkinson at the shareholders meeting, st mirren would get the bar takings.

[davidg]

According to Richard atkinson at the shareholders meeting, st mirren would get the bar takings.

That's not what '10000hours' said on here.

I am a bit disappointed that the football club doesn't get the revenue from a bar inside the stadium. Surely at some point though the CIC members could vote to overturn this?

Fair enough. However the club will not have spent any money putting it there, but will firstly derive a rental for the CIC after a period, and secondly get to use the facility for its own events.

e.g at Christmas time the club can now have bigger parties becuase it will have a separte area it can use for the dancing, the same is true of weddings which are limited becuiase of the lack of a large dance floor which the club will now have.

So the CIC enabling the development of the void will give the club plenty of other opportunties to make money........and if it operates the bar dueing these events it does get the money!

10000hours CIC

Apologies for any Confusion.

Don't know if this will help if we put the statment a different way, but here goes.

Any revenue that the club earns at the total expense of the club the club keeps. e.g the club runs the coorporate hospitalty bar during a party, the club gets the revenue

Any revenue that the CIC earns at the total expense of the CIC the CIC keeps e.g the CIC runs the CIC members bar (that it pays to fit out, staff, etc etc) the CIC gets the revenue

Any revenue the the CIC or the Club earn by working together the CIC and the Club Share (in the appropraite proportions) e.g 10000hours organises a conference on Social Enterprise and Sport. It charges for the tickets and pays a percentage to the club for the provision of the facilty use etc etc.

I hope this clears the issue up.

10000hours CIC