Its time

[steve_the_saint]

Seriously Sid - I have exchanged PMs / e-mails with RA, and consequently am fully in support of the CIC, so you're barking up the wrong tree there. Good news that it looks like finally happening.

My beef is that we start off with far too high a debt due to the price being paid for the club. If the purchase price was more realistic, then all the income streams to the CIC would find its way onto the pitch a lot quicker than it will now.

I assume then that you support paying over the odds for the club, and this ensuring the CIC revenue stream takes longer to benefit SMFC on the pitch ? That;'s all I wanted you to clarify old chap. What say you ?

The thing is, it's not really the football club that's being bought, its the brand new facilities and the brand as a focal point that's being bought. When looked at it that way, could purpose built facilities and community hub be created for less than 2m quid? I don't know if it could.

[St. Sid]

Too late Fras, but a valiant try all the same - the announcement is being made today.

Ah meant the morra.

[bluto]

My beef is that we start off with far too high a debt due to the price being paid for the club. If the purchase price was more realistic, then all the income streams to the CIC would find its way onto the pitch a lot quicker than it will now.

I assume then that you support paying over the odds for the club, and this ensuring the CIC revenue stream takes longer to benefit SMFC on the pitch ? That;'s all I wanted you to clarify old chap. What say you ?

Ah meant the morra.

I'm disappointed that you're dodging the question, Sid?

Why would you think that paying daft dosh for a middling fitba club and saddling the CIC with unreasonable debt is a good idea...?

To what inheritance is

Basher1981 referring...? Has all your bawbaggery on this subject been done due to you having undeclared interests in the outcome? Disappointing if that is so...

I've been perplexed and unable to figure why you were so down on ANYONE who wasn't all for this scheme....

I'm sure there's a perfectly innocent explanation.

Edited October 6, 2011 by bluto

[St. Sid]

I'm disappointed that you're dodging the question, Sid?

Why would you think that paying daft dosh for a middling fitba club and saddling the CIC with unreasonable debt is a good idea...?

To what inheritance is

Basher1981 referring...?

Basher is in the sulk because his hero has came out in support of the CIC.

You can ask as many questions as you like - moot points now - your club is mine...Wah! Ha! Ha!

Edited October 6, 2011 by St. Sid

[Big Fras]

The thing is, it's not really the football club that's being bought, its the brand new facilities and the brand as a focal point that's being bought. When looked at it that way, could purpose built facilities and community hub be created for less than 2m quid? I don't know if it could.

That's a fair point Steve, that you could argue to & fro, although I think "the brand" (and I despise Football Clubs being described as "the brand") is not that strong - eg. failure by a distance to even sell -out the allocation for first Cup Final appearance for over 20 years.

Bottom line is that nobody seems capable of coming anywhere near stirring up a £2m bid, so why the CIC team aren't trying to squeeze the price down, thus improving the timeframe for getting CIC benefits on the pitch....seems like a waste of money. Ho-hum, not the best of starts, but off we go anyway......

[Big Fras]

Basher is in the sulk because his hero has came out in support of the CIC.

You can ask as many questions as you like - moot points now - your club is mine...Wah! Ha! Ha!

Very good Sid.

You are rightly/wrongly perceived as the CIC's No.1 fan/online enforcer/Goebbels figure. Given all the acreage of posts from your good self, it seems only fair that we get to hear your erudite views on the debt figure that we will be starting with. I use the word "we" as you and I will both be CIC members, and as you know, I'm not overly chuffed at the opening state of fiscal affairs. I await your pearls of wisdom.....

[Stuart Dickson]

The thing is, it's not really the football club that's being bought, its the brand new facilities and the brand as a focal point that's being bought. When looked at it that way, could purpose built facilities and community hub be created for less than 2m quid? I don't know if it could.

It's £4m Steve - they CIC are only after a 52% shareholding but yeah the valuation comes from the facilities. The brand and the business of the football team are worthless IMO but 10000hours valuation of the stadium, the land around the stadium and the lease on the training facility must have come in somewhere around £4m.

Frasers point about Dragons Den was funny, but he ignored the fact that on Dragons Den one of the enterprises that gained investment was a guy who was planning to grow truffles on a plot of land in France.That business turned over nothing, and there were no guarantees that you could grow truffles there despite some of the scientific mumbo jumbo the guy presented. Where there was value though was that there was a plot of land that minimised the exposure to risk.

[Big Fras]

It's £4m Steve - they CIC are only after a 52% shareholding but yeah the valuation comes from the facilities. The brand and the business of the football team are worthless IMO but 10000hours valuation of the stadium, the land around the stadium and the lease on the training facility must have come in somewhere around £4m.

Frasers point about Dragons Den was funny, but he ignored the fact that on Dragons Den one of the enterprises that gained investment was a guy who was planning to grow truffles on a plot of land in France.That business turned over nothing, and there were no guarantees that you could grow truffles there despite some of the scientific mumbo jumbo the guy presented. Where there was value though was that there was a plot of land that minimised the exposure to risk.

I'd love to know the name of the surveyor who helped with that one. He can come and value my house !

Even if it is with £4m, if I was being a hard-faced git, I would be looking at the selling BoD and be "Thinking how keen are they to get shot ?" "How much can anyone else come close to bidding £2m?" Even if the agreed fee came down to say £1.4m, it will speed up the time where a fully operational CIC can help "live the dream" on the pitch, and to be honest that is what I am interested in.

Its worth noting that in the current climate, for RA to have got this much fiscal backing lined up is quite some achievement, and shouldn't be sniffed at, regardless of anyone's views of a CIC.

ETA Are the current BoD contracyed in @ £10k p.a. for just the 12 months ? I hope they stick around thereafter, as that could be a large financial hole to fill

[Stuart Dickson]

I'd love to know the name of the surveyor who helped with that one. He can come and value my house !

Even if it is with £4m, if I was being a hard-faced git, I would be looking at the selling BoD and be "Thinking how keen are they to get shot ?" "How much can anyone else come close to bidding £2m?" Even if the agreed fee came down to say £1.4m, it will speed up the time where a fully operational CIC can help "live the dream" on the pitch, and to be honest that is what I am interested in.

Its worth noting that in the current climate, for RA to have got this much fiscal backing lined up is quite some achievement, and shouldn't be sniffed at, regardless of anyone's views of a CIC.

ETA Are the current BoD contracyed in @ £10k p.a. for just the 12 months ? I hope they stick around thereafter, as that could be a large financial hole to fill

Fras, I'd love nothing more to see the consortium walk away with much less than £2m. I'd love to see 10000hours get started at St Mirren with a much smaller level of debt and a great deal more cash to build other community projects. It's all just speculation but if the remaining 1% is a funder then it may be the case that 10000hours will have to revisit their bid and make a take it or leave it offer with what they have managed to raise.

How do you put a value on a football stadium? Well a quick search around Google and I discovered that in September 2003 in r*ngers annual accounts they reported that DM Hall had revalued r*ngers Freehold Properties from £85m to £125m. The article goes on to say that their principle freehold asset was Ibrox Stadium. Now I'm not sure but if r*ngers really did go into liquidation do you see there being many buyers for a 1970's building with 50,000 outdoor seats with a garden courtyard and very little parking?

Edited October 7, 2011 by Stuart Dickson

[Big Fras]

Fras, I'd love nothing more to see the consortium walk away with much less than £2m. I'd love to see 10000hours get started at St Mirren with a much smaller level of debt and a great deal more cash to build other community projects. It's all just speculation but if the remaining 1% is a funder then it may be the case that 10000hours will have to revisit their bid and make a take it or leave it offer with what they have managed to raise.

How do you put a value on a football stadium? Well a quick search around Google and I discovered that in September 2003 in r*ngers annual accounts they reported that DM Hall had revalued r*ngers Freehold Properties from £85m to £125m. The article goes on to say that their principle freehold asset was Ibrox Stadium. Now I'm not sure but if r*ngers really did go into liquidation do you see there being many buyers for a 1970's building with 50,000 outdoor seats with a garden courtyard and very little parking?

Someone will buy it and lease it back to them, like Leeds United #lastrefugeofthedoomed

Edited October 7, 2011 by Big Fras

[St. Sid]

That's a fair point Steve, that you could argue to & fro, although I think "the brand" (and I despise Football Clubs being described as "the brand") is not that strong - eg. failure by a distance to even sell -out the allocation for first Cup Final appearance for over 20 years.

Are you sure you are a St Mirren supporter. You appear to take every opportunity you can to run the club into the ground. You are more condescending towards your own club than most OF fans.

The brand is all about the community stoopit. That is the entire point of it all. It is about kids seeing a St Mirren badge and associating it with the good guys that host the free music club for them. As their affinity with St Mirren grows so do the attendances, so do the sponsors opportunities.

[St. Sid]

Very good Sid.

You are rightly/wrongly perceived as the CIC's No.1 fan/online enforcer/Goebbels figure. Given all the acreage of posts from your good self, it seems only fair that we get to hear your erudite views on the debt figure that we will be starting with. I use the word "we" as you and I will both be CIC members, and as you know, I'm not overly chuffed at the opening state of fiscal affairs. I await your pearls of wisdom.....

Let's start with your pearl of stoopidity......tell us exactly how much debt there is actually going to be......bearing in mind that some of the funding is in the form of grants and other funding is loans than can be traded off against social benefit.

You are like a tired old boxer reeling on the ropes swinging out at fresh air knowing he's f'k'd.

Edited October 7, 2011 by St. Sid

[Big Fras]

Let's start with your pearl of stoopidity......tell us exactly how much debt there is actually going to be......bearing in mind that some of the funding is in the form of grants and other funding is loans than can be traded off against social benefit.

You are like a tired old boxer reeling on the ropes swinging out at fresh air knowing he's f'k'd.

It was a simple statement:

If the CIC is paying over the odds for the club do you think this is right ?

Do you think this helps the CIC going forward ?

Do you think that given the complete lack of any suitable buyers, and the economic sh*tsorm that prevails and may get worse, that the CIC could put in a "revised" bid for immediate completion and speed up the freeing up of CIC cash ?

And BTW I've supported this club for my entire life, and far from running thm down, i have taken several opportunities to "big them up" through some stuff I did for the likes 4-4-2 and talkSport.

Ever since my old man stuck me up on his shoulders at the old LS end in 1975, I've had no dalliance with any other team........ unlike you Shaint Shid, the shameless shamrock shagging shitehawk (as Shhhhir Shhhean Connery would say)

[St. Sid]

It was a simple statement:

If the CIC is paying over the odds for the club do you think this is right ?

Do you think this helps the CIC going forward ?

Do you think that given the complete lack of any suitable buyers, and the economic sh*tsorm that prevails and may get worse, that the CIC could put in a "revised" bid for immediate completion and speed up the freeing up of CIC cash ?

And BTW I've supported this club for my entire life, and far from running thm down, i have taken several opportunities to "big them up" through some stuff I did for the likes 4-4-2 and talkSport.

Ever since my old man stuck me up on his shoulders at the old LS end in 1975, I've had no dalliance with any other team........ unlike you Shaint Shid, the shameless shamrock shagging shitehawk (as Shhhhir Shhhean Connery would say)

£2M was the asking price. It was the asking price long before Richie Rich appeared on the scene. Some tried to get the club at a fraction of that price, and according to the consortium a less attractive business plan for the future of the club. The CIC is not paying over the odds - it is paying the asking price. The funding applications will all be based on that price.

So for the purposes of clarifaction would you like to post the exact amount of debt that is involved.....or is this just the same tired old malicious speculation.

The second part of your post is pretty poor, but not unexpected......see the post above about the tired old boxer swinging at fresh air.

[Big Fras]

£2M was the asking price. It was the asking price long before Richie Rich appeared on the scene. Some tried to get the club at a fraction of that price, and according to the consortium a less attractive business plan for the future of the club. The CIC is not paying over the odds - it is paying the asking price. The funding applications will all be based on that price.

So for the purposes of clarifaction would you like to post the exact amount of debt that is involved.....or is this just the same tired old malicious speculation.

The second part of your post is pretty poor, but not unexpected......see the post above about the tired old boxer swinging at fresh air.

Sid - you queried if I was a SMFC fan, and stated that I ran the club down. I set the record straight...but couldn't resist a wee dig at your origins. Given the ferocious abuse you dole out on a regular basis, I'm surprised this even registered.

Onto more important things. You're just not getting my point, so I'll simplify it, using your queries above:

1) "Asking Price" - yes, just that "Asking". Like when you sell a house, the "asking price" by the seller may not be the commercially realistic/justifiable one.

2) CIC bids that asking price ages ago.

3) CIC since then is having funding trouble...but nobody else seems to be able to come close to that magical "asking price". Why not offer a lower price to seal an immediate deal ?

3) CIC has a debt due to £2m asking price. I don't know the exact amount...but what I do know is that if a more competitive/realistic offer was made by the CIC...and there doesn't appear to be too much competition according to the wisened sages, then that debt would be considerably less.

4) CIC states that in the first 24-36 months, funds generated will largely be going to pay off the additional finance that was required. If less of that finance was required, then the monies would work their way onto the pitch quicker.

Final "get out of jail" card here Sid:

Why do you seem so content that the CIC (that you have been such a passionate supporter of) is struggling to meet the funding, in order to meet an "asking price" that nobody in a million square miles seems prepared to pay ? The direct consequence of which is that it will take an estimated 3 years (RA) for CIC funds to start really impacting on team budgets. You seem quite ambivalent about this

[St. Sid]

Sid - you queried if I was a SMFC fan, and stated that I ran the club down. I set the record straight...but couldn't resist a wee dig at your origins. Given the ferocious abuse you dole out on a regular basis, I'm surprised this even registered.

Onto more important things. You're just not getting my point, so I'll simplify it, using your queries above:

1) "Asking Price" - yes, just that "Asking". Like when you sell a house, the "asking price" by the seller may not be the commercially realistic/justifiable one.

2) CIC bids that asking price ages ago.

3) CIC since then is having funding trouble...but nobody else seems to be able to come close to that magical "asking price". Why not offer a lower price to seal an immediate deal ?

3) CIC has a debt due to £2m asking price. I don't know the exact amount...but what I do know is that if a more competitive/realistic offer was made by the CIC...and there doesn't appear to be too much competition according to the wisened sages, then that debt would be considerably less.

4) CIC states that in the first 24-36 months, funds generated will largely be going to pay off the additional finance that was required. If less of that finance was required, then the monies would work their way onto the pitch quicker.

Final "get out of jail" card here Sid:

Why do you seem so content that the CIC (that you have been such a passionate supporter of) is struggling to meet the funding, in order to meet an "asking price" that nobody in a million square miles seems prepared to pay ? The direct consequence of which is that it will take an estimated 3 years (RA) for CIC funds to start really impacting on team budgets. You seem quite ambivalent about this

I actually enquired whether you are a St Mirren "supporter" rather than a fan. Stating that St Mirren is a worthless brand is not the sort of comment you would expect from a "supporter".

I understand your point Fras, you just don't understand that the point you are making is a complete red herring.

And yet again you have failed to state what the actual debt is going to be. So to make it really simple for everyone why not tell them exactly what the debt would be. That is better than long malicious blah, blah from your ignorant perspective.

[Big Fras]

I actually enquired whether you are a St Mirren "supporter" rather than a fan. Stating that St Mirren is a worthless brand is not the sort of comment you would expect from a "supporter".

I understand your point Fras, you just don't understand that the point you are making is a complete red herring.

And yet again you have failed to state what the actual debt is going to be. So to make it really simple for everyone why not tell them exactly what the debt would be. That is better than long malicious blah, blah from your ignorant perspective.

OK Sid. You wanted simple.

"Supporter" - in my 36 years since attending my first Saints game I have paid admission fees, had a ST, bought merchandise, subscribed to Gold Bond/Lotto etc; , bought places at club functions, and even got some corporate advertising in for the club. Will that suffice ?

I simply queried that the SMFC "brand" is not worth £4m. I never said it was worthless.

Debt - I said before, I don't know the debt. Try reading before typing. I do know that there will be one, so sizeable that RA estimated that it would take 3 years of CIC income to pay it off. I believe that a more realistic purchase price reduces this debt figure by default.

I asked you several times if you agreed that a lower purchasing price would help the CIC have a quicker positive impact on team affairs. Hardly malicious.

You have never answered that. Why ?

[St. Sid]

OK Sid. You wanted simple.

"Supporter" - in my 36 years since attending my first Saints game I have paid admission fees, had a ST, bought merchandise, subscribed to Gold Bond/Lotto etc; , bought places at club functions, and even got some corporate advertising in for the club. Will that suffice ?

I simply queried that the SMFC "brand" is not worth £4m. I never said it was worthless.

Debt - I said before, I don't know the debt. Try reading before typing. I do know that there will be one, so sizeable that RA estimated that it would take 3 years of CIC income to pay it off. I believe that a more realistic purchase price reduces this debt figure by default.

I asked you several times if you agreed that a lower purchasing price would help the CIC have a quicker positive impact on team affairs. Hardly malicious.

You have never answered that. Why ?

Are you called fras cos you're easily frassled?

Rather odd that you should associate your support of St Mirren as nothing more than what you invest financially. What a sad waste of money that must have been for you when you clearly have no respect for the club. SMFC is pure gold for the good people of Renfrewshire. As the centre of the community it is worth far more than any financial tag. It is no surprise at all that you cannot understand that point. The CIC is not about the money, just as supporting St Mirren is not a measure of how much money you put into it.

I know that you don't know how much the debt actually is. It renders your spurious argument baseless.

If you had read my previous posts on the matter of the £2M, I have always held the opinion that it would be nice if the consortium took some of the £2M and pumped it straight back into the CIC......which is pretty much what I understand to be their intention. You also fail to comment on the fact that some of the debt will be traded to zero based on social outcomes.....and that much of the debt is interest free.

The £2M is not an issue unless you hold some personal grudge against the consortium or one of the consortium members in particular. It is just a number and sufficient funding has been sought to achieve that number. If you had experience in social funding you would understand this.

If however, you would like assistance in putting together a coherent and salient critique of the CIC or the current BoD please let me know and I will be delighted to present it - you don't even have to own up to you being behind it. I am a great believer in both sides being heard.

[bluto]

Rather odd that you should associate your support of St Mirren as nothing more than what you invest financially. What a sad waste of money that must have been for you when you clearly have no respect for the club.

That's appalling, Sid.

EveryBuddie on here knows Big Fras has put much more into the club for its fans and players than you could ever dream of doing - you slag Saints fans left, right and centre. (It's the old Darkheid way that you'll have to grow out of, I'm afraid... )

I know that you don't know how much the debt actually is. It renders your spurious argument baseless.

That spurious debt argument is ALL YOURS, and yours alone. You raised it. No Buddie else is interested in it, let alone BF, I should imagine... I'm certainly not.

Big Fras has only been asking you to say whether or not you think it a good or bad thing that the CIC is going to be saddled with a massive sum that no sane business person would part with to buy a football club like St Mirren. And you won't answer. That's strange to me...

If you had read my previous posts on the matter of the £2M.........

Yadda yadda yadda about the debt - NOT AN ANSWER to the simple question....

Your fragile credibility is swiftly vabnishing....

[Big Fras]

Ladeeezngennnelmen...my apologies for the length of this post, but not the content:

Sid, enough’s enough.

In the last week I deliberately tried to avoid some kind of personal slanging match /bitch fest. I succumbed with the reference to your hooped past, but that was even done in a silly fashion (ie. Shur Shean ). I made an effort to keep thing polite, even referring to you as “erudite”.

In return I get the usual Sid, twisting & warping every little comment, not reading what people are posting, etc.

EG:

1)You claim I said the St.Mirren brand was “worthless”.

I actually said: “.....its not that strong” (ie. not £4m strong)

2)You queried if I was a St.Mirren supporter.

I responded by explaining how long I have followed the Buds, and the ways that I have tried to “big them up” in the wider media when opportunities arose.

You said that this was the actions of a “fan” not a “supporter”.

OK. I then tried to explain that I have “supported” SMFC in a variety of financial ways over the last ¼ century+.

You then say “...supporting St Mirren is not a measure of how much money you put into it”.

I agree 100% Sid.......but aside from the explained historical, emotional, practical, and financial backing..... I’m left scratching my head at what else I am meant to be doing to qualify as a St.Mirren supporter/fan ?

3)I’d previously explained 2 or 3 times that I didn’t know the debt figure, but knew from Richard’s explanation that it was sizeable enough to take 2-3 years of CIC income to pay off, through direct finance and trade-off conditions. If its OK with you Sid, I’ll listen to Richard on this score.

My concern was simple business/economics – the CIC funds can go to the team quicker if there was less of a debt to pay....no matter how that debt was paid/traded off. I want to see the CIC efforts directly impact on the footballing budget ASAP, and this is one way to achieve it. It is clear that nobody has been able to come close with a bid of £2m, so it is entirely reasonable to review the bid price before completion, especcially with funding "issues" causing delays. This would only benefit the FUTURE of St.Mirren FC.

Tonight, we finally get the pearls of wisdom.....

“If you had read my previous posts on the matter of the £2M, I have always held the opinion that it would be nice if the consortium took some of the £2M and pumped it straight back into the CIC......which is pretty much what I understand to be their intention. “

It would be nice indeed. How philanthropic ! Does it not also happen to be a stipulatuion of the deal by the backers ? I do hope that the BoD stick around with their annual £10k contribs after the obligatory “contracted-in” period expires. Otherwise Richard’s going to have to dust down the old contacts book again, poor sod.

“You also fail to comment on the fact that some of the debt will be traded to zero based on social outcomes.....and that much of the debt is interest free.”

You’ve completely missed the point. Debt is debt is debt. Bottom line is that if the purchase price wasn’t so high, this would be reduced, and we wouldn’t need to wait “2-3 years” (RA) for the CIC to really benefit the team. Interest free / social funding / etc.....it is still a payback method.

You’ve said your piece and your position is now crystal clear. As is mine. We’re not likely to agree, so I’ll just leave it at that. Not much point in carrying this on.

[Evil_Panda]

ffs guys, sid is a gobshite, end of. a guy who constantly slags off and insults fellow supporters. it is indeed a throwback to the terraces of parkhead where the natives would regulary bait and fight amongst themselves.

He doesnt understand what its like to be a st.mirren fan, poor sod.

[St. Sid]

Ladeeezngennnelmen...my apologies for the length of this post, but not the content:

Sid, enough’s enough.

In the last week I deliberately tried to avoid some kind of personal slanging match /bitch fest. I succumbed with the reference to your hooped past, but that was even done in a silly fashion (ie. Shur Shean ). I made an effort to keep thing polite, even referring to you as “erudite”.

In return I get the usual Sid, twisting & warping every little comment, not reading what people are posting, etc.

EG:

1)You claim I said the St.Mirren brand was “worthless”.

I actually said: “.....its not that strong” (ie. not £4m strong)

2)You queried if I was a St.Mirren supporter.

I responded by explaining how long I have followed the Buds, and the ways that I have tried to “big them up” in the wider media when opportunities arose.

You said that this was the actions of a “fan” not a “supporter”.

OK. I then tried to explain that I have “supported” SMFC in a variety of financial ways over the last ¼ century+.

You then say “...supporting St Mirren is not a measure of how much money you put into it”.

I agree 100% Sid.......but aside from the explained historical, emotional, practical, and financial backing..... I’m left scratching my head at what else I am meant to be doing to qualify as a St.Mirren supporter/fan ?

3)I’d previously explained 2 or 3 times that I didn’t know the debt figure, but knew from Richard’s explanation that it was sizeable enough to take 2-3 years of CIC income to pay off, through direct finance and trade-off conditions. If its OK with you Sid, I’ll listen to Richard on this score.

My concern was simple business/economics – the CIC funds can go to the team quicker if there was less of a debt to pay....no matter how that debt was paid/traded off. I want to see the CIC efforts directly impact on the footballing budget ASAP, and this is one way to achieve it. It is clear that nobody has been able to come close with a bid of £2m, so it is entirely reasonable to review the bid price before completion, especcially with funding "issues" causing delays. This would only benefit the FUTURE of St.Mirren FC.

Tonight, we finally get the pearls of wisdom.....

“If you had read my previous posts on the matter of the £2M, I have always held the opinion that it would be nice if the consortium took some of the £2M and pumped it straight back into the CIC......which is pretty much what I understand to be their intention. “

It would be nice indeed. How philanthropic ! Does it not also happen to be a stipulatuion of the deal by the backers ? I do hope that the BoD stick around with their annual £10k contribs after the obligatory “contracted-in” period expires. Otherwise Richard’s going to have to dust down the old contacts book again, poor sod.

“You also fail to comment on the fact that some of the debt will be traded to zero based on social outcomes.....and that much of the debt is interest free.”

You’ve completely missed the point. Debt is debt is debt. Bottom line is that if the purchase price wasn’t so high, this would be reduced, and we wouldn’t need to wait “2-3 years” (RA) for the CIC to really benefit the team. Interest free / social funding / etc.....it is still a payback method.

You’ve said your piece and your position is now crystal clear. As is mine. We’re not likely to agree, so I’ll just leave it at that. Not much point in carrying this on.

"Enough's enough."

Quality pomposity big frassled.

Your longwinded post is nothing more than blind ranting about a debt that you can't even put a figure to despite many telephone conversations with Richie Rich. Bizarre that you didn't ask for the specifics when it is such a major personal concern for you.

I do see where you are coming from with the debt though - you are coming from a position of personal issues with the consortium. A real shame that you should let that taint your support for the CIC. The consortium have done a great job for us and we should be forever grateful to them. You shouldn't let that stick in yer craw 0- if it does you should really keep it presents you in a poor light......and your fragile ego cannae handle that.

[St. Sid]

ffs guys, sid is a QUALITY gobshite, end of.

fixed it for you.

[Big Fras]

"Enough's enough."

Quality pomposity big frassled.

Your longwinded post is nothing more than blind ranting about a debt that you can't even put a figure to despite many telephone conversations with Richie Rich. Bizarre that you didn't ask for the specifics when it is such a major personal concern for you.

I do see where you are coming from with the debt though - you are coming from a position of personal issues with the consortium. A real shame that you should let that taint your support for the CIC. The consortium have done a great job for us and we should be forever grateful to them. You shouldn't let that stick in yer craw 0- if it does you should really keep it presents you in a poor light......and your fragile ego cannae handle that.

Oh you naughty little scamp !You're making things up again !

".....despite many telephone conversations with Richie Rich"

Eh ? I just went off RA's statement that there would be a debt and it would take 2-3 seasons to pay iot off, before the CIC funds really impacted on the playing side of things. I've spoken e-mailed RA about other things, but I took that information (debt) at face value.

"....you are coming from a position of personal issues with the consortium."

I've not mentioned the consortium, other than to say "good luck to them if they can get away with that price being met".

Does this mean that everyone else on here who has twigged your wee game has "issue with the consortium ?" Probably not.

Now be a love and please f*ck off.

[bluto]

Does this mean that everyone else on here who has twigged your wee game has "issue with the consortium ?" Probably not.

From what I can read between the lines from the various posts on here it's Sid who may have 'personal issues with the consortium' and that's why he is refusing to condemn the idea that paying over the odds from public money to buy a middling fitba team is wrong.

At least, I'm guessing that would explain why he should be thinking of 'his inheritance', as some buddie posted.... and that, in turn would explain why he'd be relaxed to see St Mirren/the CIC saddled with that burden of debt.

No doubt, he'll be along soon to clear things up. Or splaff on endlessly ignoring the question, as usual.

It would be a poor thing if all his pro-CIC posts had been tainted with the desire for personal reward, wouldn't it?