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Is the CIC dead?

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Guest somner9

Please provide evidence for how much the board supposedly pocketed from the sale of Love Street, or are you just spouting more rubbish?

RA has already explained why the company was set up with himself and the selling consortium and he did it publicly at a CIC meeting.

And RA also said that if / when / once the CIC did go through he would explain what caused the hold up, and that he was in fact dying to tell us about it at the meeting but couldn't. Anyone who has been to any of the CIC meetings will vouch for RA being pretty open with the fans and willing to answer questions rather than how you portra him in your posts.

Simples just ask them!

But don't get me wrong about the sale they invested in the club, ran it when times were rough so I don't begrudge them a return on that especially as we got a new ground and the debt wiped out. Do you serioisly think that no one profited from a £10m transaction??? c'mon

As regards that company what they didn't do was explain, all they said was it was necessary for the sale to go through, so how comes none of the people actually stumping up the cash for the CiC weren't invited to form the company?

10000 hours are a bunch of amateurs who thought they could buy 52% of SMFC with other people's money, and lo and behold they've found out they can't! What a surprise. If they were open and honset as you say why have they not informed all the people who pledged that they are out?

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Simples just ask them!

But don't get me wrong about the sale they invested in the club, ran it when times were rough so I don't begrudge them a return on that especially as we got a new ground and the debt wiped out. Do you serioisly think that no one profited from a £10m transaction??? c'mon

As regards that company what they didn't do was explain, all they said was it was necessary for the sale to go through, so how comes none of the people actually stumping up the cash for the CiC weren't invited to form the company?

10000 hours are a bunch of amateurs who thought they could buy 52% of SMFC with other people's money, and lo and behold they've found out they can't! What a surprise. If they were open and honset as you say why have they not informed all the people who pledged that they are out?

So Tesco paid £x million for Love Street, and Love Street had to be demolished, the new ground had to be built, a training complex was partly funded from that deal and most of the debts to banks etc were wiped out.

If you've already done the simples part and asked the board how much they pocketed from the deal why not fill us all in.

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.

(Don't forget they will have seen a nice return on the sale of Love street).

. Do you serioisly think that no one profited from a £10m transaction??? c'mon

I would say these are potentially defamatory posts. I'll give you a chance to back up your comments before deleting them (for your own good btw).

Edited by davidg

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The bottom line is that the people who are ultimately expected to foot the bill are not being kept up to speed on events. You cant argue that this is the right position

This is meant to be about collective community involvement in the decision making processes of a CIC that aims to control a football club with a potential stakeholder number in the tens of thousands. It needs to up its game in terms of communications, which seemed to be working at least in a sporadic fashion up to the point where sufficient direct debit forms were signed and returned.

I'm not arguing that this is the correct position. I said I agreed with all the previous poster had said...

And I agree with most of what you're saying. Are you able to grasp that...?

However, what is it you want them to keep you informed about? If there is nothing to say, there is nothing to say. If, in case of repercussions, they can't say anything, then they can't say anything. So, what is it that you want them to say...?

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Ken McGeoch pressing ahead with a buy out of the club , from what i hear !

I wonder how Ken McGeoch will raise the funds and what, if anything, will be used as collateral for them. I'll be very surprised if the money comes out of someone's pocket.

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I wonder how Ken McGeoch will raise the funds and what, if anything, will be used as collateral for them. I'll be very surprised if the money comes out of someone's pocket.

Bit like the CIC then. Using others money to purchase a controlling stake in a football club. Nothing new.

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Bit like the CIC then. Using others money to purchase a controlling stake in a football club. Nothing new.

More likely using borrowings against the surety of the club - which seems to be the more typical way these days of buying into football clubs.

Apart from those - like me - who might be happy at the prospect of the consortium not getting anywhere near their asking price, I'm not sure why anyone would be excited by the prospect of the Ken McGeoch bid. There's even less information about what his plans are for the club than 10000hours put into the public forum. No-one knows if fans of the club will be given a voice, or if the direction St Mirren take with regards to the local community will be inclusive, or just the usual pile of wanky bullshit that comes from senior football clubs who do the bare minimum to obtain grants and public funding whilst trampling over youth groups and charities.

The CIC bid at St Mirren may, or may not have reached it's terminal end but one thing is for sure - other clubs will be heading down the CIC / SEN route very soon because it's the business model that makes most sense in football.

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More likely using borrowings against the surety of the club - which seems to be the more typical way these days of buying into football clubs.

Apart from those - like me - who might be happy at the prospect of the consortium not getting anywhere near their asking price, I'm not sure why anyone would be excited by the prospect of the Ken McGeoch bid. There's even less information about what his plans are for the club than 10000hours put into the public forum. No-one knows if fans of the club will be given a voice, or if the direction St Mirren take with regards to the local community will be inclusive, or just the usual pile of wanky bullshit that comes from senior football clubs who do the bare minimum to obtain grants and public funding whilst trampling over youth groups and charities.

The CIC bid at St Mirren may, or may not have reached it's terminal end but one thing is for sure - other clubs will be heading down the CIC / SEN route very soon because it's the business model that makes most sense in football.

Much as I'll hate myself in the morning I agree with much of this.

One individual having control over a club cannot be the way forward.

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Bit like the CIC then. Using others money to purchase a controlling stake in a football club. Nothing new.

The only thing that would be new would be someone making it work, others with more money than Ken McGeoch have tried and largely failed - Romanov, Farmer, Milne, Murray for example.

With the current financial climate and the state of the majority of Scottish football clubs I'd expect any banks that would be willing to fund the buy out would demand some security from the club's assets. As the only real asset we have is the stadium, we'd be mortgaging it for between £1.2M - £2M pounds, so we'd go from relatively debt free to a situation we were in before we had to sell Love Street, with one individual in charge and no guarantee that future buyers might have the club's best interests at heart. The CIC may have it's faults but I think it is the best option to safeguard the future of the club due to the fans say in major issues.

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The only thing that would be new would be someone making it work, others with more money than Ken McGeoch have tried and largely failed - Romanov, Farmer, Milne, Murray for example.

With the current financial climate and the state of the majority of Scottish football clubs I'd expect any banks that would be willing to fund the buy out would demand some security from the club's assets. As the only real asset we have is the stadium, we'd be mortgaging it for between £1.2M - £2M pounds, so we'd go from relatively debt free to a situation we were in before we had to sell Love Street, with one individual in charge and no guarantee that future buyers might have the club's best interests at heart. The CIC may have it's faults but I think it is the best option to safeguard the future of the club due to the fans say in major issues.

One of the most sensible posts in a while! The CiC has its flaws an the folks piloting it have made mistakes, of this there is no doubt. However, the business model remains the most secure and transparent and robust. It'd be a shame to see our club, the first to try it, be ultimately left behind because of some technicalities whilst others, who jumped on the bandwagon late, charge ahead and secure the funding, support, publicity needed to be a success. That would be sad.

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One of the most sensible posts in a while! The CiC has its flaws an the folks piloting it have made mistakes, of this there is no doubt. However, the business model remains the most secure and transparent and robust. It'd be a shame to see our club, the first to try it, be ultimately left behind because of some technicalities whilst others, who jumped on the bandwagon late, charge ahead and secure the funding, support, publicity needed to be a success. That would be sad.

I agree completely with bud77 and ktf. We don't seem to have a multi millionaire willing to back us but even if we did he could make a mess of it anyway. But just what is going on with the CIC? Some of you guys and gals out there seem to have private sources but hee-haw is coming forth. Is it subject to a D-notice or covered by the Official Secrets Act? What can possibly be so hush-hush that fans can be told nothing?

Tony Blair used to say 'Trust me. I'm Tony'. And that worked out OK. Didn't it?

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One of the most sensible posts in a while! The CiC has its flaws an the folks piloting it have made mistakes, of this there is no doubt. However, the business model remains the most secure and transparent and robust. It'd be a shame to see our club, the first to try it, be ultimately left behind because of some technicalities whilst others, who jumped on the bandwagon late, charge ahead and secure the funding, support, publicity needed to be a success. That would be sad.

If the cic dont secure the funding it wont be on a technicality, it wil be because of the inflated asking price and the funding bodies taking a dim view of the cic agreeing to any old price becuase it isnt their own money at risk. It's like asking for a 200k mortgage on a house valued at 90k, the sums just dont add up.

Anyway, was it not made known that the McGeoch bid involves turning the club over to some form of community ownership in a couple of years? If so, no need to panic.

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If the cic dont secure the funding it wont be on a technicality, it wil be because of the inflated asking price and the funding bodies taking a dim view of the cic agreeing to any old price becuase it isnt their own money at risk. It's like asking for a 200k mortgage on a house valued at 90k, the sums just dont add up.

Anyway, was it not made known that the McGeoch bid involves turning the club over to some form of community ownership in a couple of years? If so, no need to panic.

I've never heard from that any party that McGeoch was actually making a bid, the only thing official I've read is that there was a note of interest in buying the club, everything else has been pure speculation. As I said earlier how would a private bid be funded ? I wouldn't think many banks would be interested in funding a football club buy out as they would see it as a medium to high risk and with their current difficulties I think they would say no. This would leave private investment companies who would be looking to make money from their investment either in the form of major returns or if things weren't going right by taking control and asset stripping. The CiC funders on the other hand would be in the form of grants and softer loans and easier to renegotiate repayments if things were to get tougher.

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The CiC funders on the other hand would be in the form of grants and softer loans and easier to renegotiate repayments if things were to get tougher.

Sounds good, only problem is the people behind the CIC at St Mirren would appear to have mad a rip roaring cnut of it. I'm fairly sure there are people involved with the allocation of funding asking whether it is appropriate to be paying £2 million for 52% of SMFC and coming up with the answer no.

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Sounds good, only problem is the people behind the CIC at St Mirren would appear to have mad a rip roaring cnut of it. I'm fairly sure there are people involved with the allocation of funding asking whether it is appropriate to be paying £2 million for 52% of SMFC and coming up with the answer no.

Fairly sure or speculating ? Do you have any evidence that some of the funders are unwilling to back it ? Could it simply be that due to budget cuts, the funders themselves don't have the money available and are simply waiting until the next round of funding becomes available ?

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Fairly sure or speculating ? Do you have any evidence that some of the funders are unwilling to back it ? Could it simply be that due to budget cuts, the funders themselves don't have the money available and are simply waiting until the next round of funding becomes available ?

Jesus this could go on forever at this rate.snore.gif

Is a financially stable top flight football club worthy of such investment from the public purse? Personally I don't think so.

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Jesus this could go on forever at this rate.snore.gif

Is a financially stable top flight football club worthy of such investment from the public purse? Personally I don't think so.

Like you, I'm guessing what the delay is, we've been told the deal is 99% concluded and it's not to do with funding so I'm purely guessing it's a delay in getting the funds.

Is a financially stable football club worthy of such investment from the public purse ? Probably not.

Is an asset that will be used by various members of the community on a daily basis worthy of such investment ? Is an asset that will help varius groups work within the community for the better of it worthy of such an investment ? Is an asset that will help some of the more vulnerable members of the community worthy of such investment ? I certainly think so. Any investment from the public purse will be in the CiC, not the club, the CiC itself could happen without the club in any building. If the club's involved it helps put it centre stage as an asset for Renfrewshire, raising the club's profile and helping to put it centre stage which in turn will hopefully help the club grow.

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Like you, I'm guessing what the delay is, we've been told the deal is 99% concluded and it's not to do with funding so I'm purely guessing it's a delay in getting the funds.

Is a financially stable football club worthy of such investment from the public purse ? Probably not.

Is an asset that will be used by various members of the community on a daily basis worthy of such investment ? Is an asset that will help varius groups work within the community for the better of it worthy of such an investment ? Is an asset that will help some of the more vulnerable members of the community worthy of such investment ? I certainly think so. Any investment from the public purse will be in the CiC, not the club, the CiC itself could happen without the club in any building. If the club's involved it helps put it centre stage as an asset for Renfrewshire, raising the club's profile and helping to put it centre stage which in turn will hopefully help the club grow.

I take on board your points and agree with most of them. My worry is that it becomes a vanity project for certain people.

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I take on board your points and agree with most of them. My worry is that it becomes a vanity project for certain people.

Bud77 certainly is a welcome addition to the CiC pages of the forums!!!

I think the point about it becoming a vanity project is fair enough Scott, however that is much less likely with the CiC model... Ownership, leadership, decision making etc will all be done on a communal basis and those in boards can be voted out if they end up acting like fandans! However, in the single-person or private finance funded model, there is much more scope for a vanity project as one person is at the top and because he found/stumped-up the cash, he can call all the shots. This is much more worrying!

And on SO77's point on the KMcG "bid" being an eventual community hand-over, firstly do you honestly think someone would spend £2m of their own money and then give it away? If so he must be mad and I don't want him near the 52%! Do you think private investors would pay into something that gets given away to a bunch of football fans for free a couple of years later?! Not a chance. And besides, as Bud77 said there has been no 'bid', just a notice of interest and someone on one of the forums heard that it might be from KMcG... Hardly worth building our future on!

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Like you, I'm guessing what the delay is, we've been told the deal is 99% concluded and it's not to do with funding so I'm purely guessing it's a delay in getting the funds.

Is a financially stable football club worthy of such investment from the public purse ? Probably not.

Is an asset that will be used by various members of the community on a daily basis worthy of such investment ? Is an asset that will help varius groups work within the community for the better of it worthy of such an investment ? Is an asset that will help some of the more vulnerable members of the community worthy of such investment ? I certainly think so. Any investment from the public purse will be in the CiC, not the club, the CiC itself could happen without the club in any building. If the club's involved it helps put it centre stage as an asset for Renfrewshire, raising the club's profile and helping to put it centre stage which in turn will hopefully help the club grow.

Best post on this forum.......sums it all up IMO

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Next to nothing is known about any alternative bid that Ken McGeoch is fronting.

He is however a good Saints man so you have to hope that if he is in cahoots with others to put in a bid that all parties have the best interests of the club at heart and again that the selling consortium will perform due diligence on anyone they hand over the regins too in order to protect the club.

That all said and done, I still think the CIC model, where the fans are the majority shareholders, is best for safeguarding the long term future of the club.

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I would say these are potentially defamatory posts. I'll give you a chance to back up your comments before deleting them (for your own good btw).

don't see how his posts are defamatory, people put up their own cash to help saints - they remortgaged their homes etc. to raise cash, the payments were loans which were repayable with interest, tesco bought the old ground, loans were repaid - we all know this was a risky investment for them but it did pay off for them and well done to them for taking a risk, how can it be defamatory to state known facts,

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