Yul's Back

[bud77]

Those two statements highlighted in bold? First one is obviously incorrect as unless you have the detail of any proposal the selling consortium are considering accepting! how could you know?

Second one: what is this £2m that anyone potentially buying the club needs back? and where are they getting it back from?

The people who lend the money to the buyers will want their money back plus interest. Normally after the sale, the new owners would take out a long term loan against the club's assets (in our case the stadium) in order to pay back the initial short term loan, the club would then be responsible for paying back the longer term loan.

[Guest somner9]

The people who lend the money to the buyers will want their money back plus interest. Normally after the sale, the new owners would take out a long term loan against the club's assets (in our case the stadium) in order to pay back the initial short term loan, the club would then be responsible for paying back the longer term loan.

All possible but unless you know the detail of an accepted bid it's only one of several scenarios. What if the buyers don't need a loan? Who would loan £2m to someone wanting to buy a SPL club with a 4000 home gate?

[ktf]

All possible but unless you know the detail of an accepted bid it's only one of several scenarios. What if the buyers don't need a loan? Who would loan £2m to someone wanting to buy a SPL club with a 4000 home gate?

Is someone spent £2M of thier own money from their bank account, or even pooled money from various bank accounts, to buy St Mirren they they'd be completely mad and should be nowhere near our club.

£2M borrowed is £2M, £2M of someone's own cash would quickly become £4M or £5M with tax and various fee's on top. You show a distinct lack of business understanding (had been doing well up until now) if you don't take this into consideration.

The only sensible option would be for someone to borrow and pay back. It'd cost them less in the long run.

[Guest somner9]

Is someone spent £2M of thier own money from their bank account, or even pooled money from various bank accounts, to buy St Mirren they they'd be completely mad and should be nowhere near our club.

£2M borrowed is £2M, £2M of someone's own cash would quickly become £4M or £5M with tax and various fee's on top. You show a distinct lack of business understanding (had been doing well up until now) if you don't take this into consideration.

The only sensible option would be for someone to borrow and pay back. It'd cost them less in the long run.

and

And your scenario above is the only way anyone can conduct a business transaction??? Hmmm perhaps not...

[spirit of 77]

The people who lend the money to the buyers will want their money back plus interest. Normally after the sale, the new owners would take out a long term loan against the club's assets (in our case the stadium) in order to pay back the initial short term loan, the club would then be responsible for paying back the longer term loan.

But the stadium has no cash value, so any other bid, theoretical or otherwise, cannot be considering it as equity

[ktf]

and

And your scenario above is the only way anyone can conduct a business transaction??? Hmmm perhaps not...

Perhaps not, but what would probably need to happen then is the buyers would have a degree of debt, to wherever, that woul need to be paid back... How would they do that? My bet is that they'd sell a shitload of the young players that we have and hope He*rts go out of business or the D*ng keep playing as bad.

Guaranteed, however else it is done, it will have debt attached and effectively have a negative impact on the playing side.

[Guest somner9]

Perhaps not, but what would probably need to happen then is the buyers would have a degree of debt, to wherever, that woul need to be paid back... How would they do that? My bet is that they'd sell a shitload of the young players that we have and hope He*rts go out of business or the D*ng keep playing as bad.

Guaranteed, however else it is done, it will have debt attached and effectively have a negative impact on the playing side.

I'm sure we'll start to find out soon enough. Main worry though is some half-arsed joint venture with 10000 hours/KMcG/GLS..... and I have a bad feelin in ma water aboot that wan

[bud77]

But the stadium has no cash value, so any other bid, theoretical or otherwise, cannot be considering it as equity

With the current financial situation, do you think any commercial lender will loan that type of money without some type of surety. The current situaution with other SPL clubs makes it at least a medium risk loan, no matter how well the club is currently run. The only other option would be someone with sufficient money to pay it out of their own pocket which would substantially increase the amount that had to be paid due to taxes etc.

[RickMcD]

But the stadium has no cash value, so any other bid, theoretical or otherwise, cannot be considering it as equity

Can you expand on what you mean by that? If St.Mirren are operating on a break even basis and the CIC do manage to purchase 52% of the shares, then that surely would allow them to use that as collateral. As I keep saying, I was late into this discussion and it may be that whoever has the remaining 48% might be able to operate some kind of embargo. The CIC might not want to use the stadium to borrow but surely it has a cash value?

[bud77]

Can you expand on what you mean by that? If St.Mirren are operating on a break even basis and the CIC do manage to purchase 52% of the shares, then that surely would allow them to use that as collateral. As I keep saying, I was late into this discussion and it may be that whoever has the remaining 48% might be able to operate some kind of embargo. The CIC might not want to use the stadium to borrow but surely it has a cash value?

The CiC wouldn't be able to borrow against the club's assets as they have already stated there would be a 'lock' on the club's assets. The club would effectively still be a seperate entity from the CiC and not liable for any CiC debt. The loans the CiC are seeking are 'soft' loans from funders who provide money for this type of thing at lower interest rates than commercial lenders and not all has to be paid back in cash. I can't recall the name for it but there's something where a certain amount of community work and involvement will write off some of the cash owed. The only Saints asset the CiC would have would be 52% of the shares so worse case scenario if things weren't to work out would be the 52% shares up for sale again, however as the lenders aren't commercial, I would imagine it would be much easier to renegotiate the terms of any loans if necessary.

A private buyer would not be able to access these loans so funding would need to come either from their own pocket or from commercial lenders.

Under the CiC, if the club wanted to borrow money and use the stadium or any other asset as security, it would need to be authorised by the majority shareholder - the CiC and I'd expect that to go to a vote of the CiC members which would include the fans who have joined.

[Guest somner9]

The CiC wouldn't be able to borrow against the club's assets as they have already stated there would be a 'lock' on the club's assets. The club would effectively still be a seperate entity from the CiC and not liable for any CiC debt. The loans the CiC are seeking are 'soft' loans from funders who provide money for this type of thing at lower interest rates than commercial lenders and not all has to be paid back in cash. I can't recall the name for it but there's something where a certain amount of community work and involvement will write off some of the cash owed. The only Saints asset the CiC would have would be 52% of the shares so worse case scenario if things weren't to work out would be the 52% shares up for sale again, however as the lenders aren't commercial, I would imagine it would be much easier to renegotiate the terms of any loans if necessary.

A private buyer would not be able to access these loans so funding would need to come either from their own pocket or from commercial lenders.

Under the CiC, if the club wanted to borrow money and use the stadium or any other asset as security, it would need to be authorised by the majority shareholder - the CiC and I'd expect that to go to a vote of the CiC members which would include the fans who have joined.

But...! KMcG bid was rumoured to include a move to CiC/IPS within five years! Now the tax authorities might chivvy them along a bit from five years but is is an example of where A. N. Other bid may not be based on the assets of SMFC

[Tracy Barlow Loyal]

sorry i didn't realise that if your on the same side of the fence then your posts are fine , that's what's being implied here is it not, or maybe schoolmaster is right and i can't read or write

Be careful Buddiecat, you'll end up being bombarded by the Secret Grammarian Head Master Brigade and aliases based in Chingford.

[spirit of 77]

Can you expand on what you mean by that? If St.Mirren are operating on a break even basis and the CIC do manage to purchase 52% of the shares, then that surely would allow them to use that as collateral. As I keep saying, I was late into this discussion and it may be that whoever has the remaining 48% might be able to operate some kind of embargo. The CIC might not want to use the stadium to borrow but surely it has a cash value?

I was speaking in referrence to some bugger's point about McG's bid being bankrolled by lenders who want a charge on the stadium as collateral

the point is, the stadium only has a value as a stadium if someone wants to buy one right where it is. if they want the land it is worth less than the demolition and clearance costs, if they want the scrap value of the structure then that is worth even less, so no sensible lenderwould proffer funds against this asset. My point bein that any other bidder would have an alternative funding plan in place

[spirit of 77]

With the current financial situation, do you think any commercial lender will loan that type of money without some type of surety. The current situaution with other SPL clubs makes it at least a medium risk loan, no matter how well the club is currently run. The only other option would be someone with sufficient money to pay it out of their own pocket which would substantially increase the amount that had to be paid due to taxes etc.

my point is that the club has no assets of any worth that can be taken as surety, equity, collateral or any other term you want to use. The ground mught have a book value in the assets list of the club, but in reality no buyer would offer more than a few thousand if it were up for sale

[bud77]

But...! KMcG bid was rumoured to include a move to CiC/IPS within five years! Now the tax authorities might chivvy them along a bit from five years but is is an example of where A. N. Other bid may not be based on the assets of SMFC

The operative part being rumoured, the only thing we know for definite is KMcG has stated an interest in buying the club, we don't know if there has been a bid or anything about it and indeed the next thing we could hear is that KMcG has bought the shares without us ever being told about his plans for the club.

my point is that the club has no assets of any worth that can be taken as surety, equity, collateral or any other term you want to use. The ground mught have a book value in the assets list of the club, but in reality no buyer would offer more than a few thousand if it were up for sale

The funds would still have to be raised somehow. I can't imagine there are many St Mirren fans with a few million quid lying under their mattress and given the current financial state of Scottish football, the tv deal coming to an end and the mess that banks got themselves into with bad debt, I'd be very interested to know who would be funding the deal.

[Stuart Dickson]

Not knowing much about it but is McGeoch not an existing shareholder? If so does he need all 52% of shares? Could he split the consortium? And more to the point how close would it take him to the point where he has to make a compulsory offer for the remaining shares?

[St. Sid]

fuxake......why does this have to descend into a "CIC is shite" "KMG bid is shite" debate.

There is no info on KMG's bid available. We have enough detail on the CIC bid for people like animal to get certifiable with their sulk induced neurosis. It could be that KMG's consortium bid is the dogz bollox and could lead us into the Champions League......and it could be that it will involve the club being handed over to fans in five years.

The one thing I can assure you of is that the current postings regarding the KMG bid are pub rumour and nothing more.

However, I am going to be posting details of a signing on the rumour thread that is 100% true.

[RickMcD]

The CiC wouldn't be able to borrow against the club's assets as they have already stated there would be a 'lock' on the club's assets. The club would effectively still be a seperate entity from the CiC and not liable for any CiC debt. The loans the CiC are seeking are 'soft' loans from funders who provide money for this type of thing at lower interest rates than commercial lenders and not all has to be paid back in cash. I can't recall the name for it but there's something where a certain amount of community work and involvement will write off some of the cash owed. The only Saints asset the CiC would have would be 52% of the shares so worse case scenario if things weren't to work out would be the 52% shares up for sale again, however as the lenders aren't commercial, I would imagine it would be much easier to renegotiate the terms of any loans if necessary.

A private buyer would not be able to access these loans so funding would need to come either from their own pocket or from commercial lenders.

Under the CiC, if the club wanted to borrow money and use the stadium or any other asset as security, it would need to be authorised by the majority shareholder - the CiC and I'd expect that to go to a vote of the CiC members which would include the fans who have joined.

Thanks for that. It explains quite a lot that I've been trying to figure out. Complicated things these CICs.

[RickMcD]

fuxake......why does this have to descend into a "CIC is shite" "KMG bid is shite" debate.

There is no info on KMG's bid available. We have enough detail on the CIC bid for people like animal to get certifiable with their sulk induced neurosis. It could be that KMG's consortium bid is the dogz bollox and could lead us into the Champions League......and it could be that it will involve the club being handed over to fans in five years.

The one thing I can assure you of is that the current postings regarding the KMG bid are pub rumour and nothing more.

However, I am going to be posting details of a signing on the rumour thread that is 100% true.

I just don't see how you can say that all of the debate we've seen comes down to 'CIC is shit' and 'KMG bid is shit'. A lot of what has been posted has been perfectly reasonable with honest opinions having been given. You seem to think that any comment on the whole issue is hate driven. 'Sulk induced neurosis'. Take a good look at yourself,Sid.

I keep asking myself, 'Just whose arse is Sid licking?' Are you looking for a seat on the board or something?

[billyg]

The one thing I can assure you of is that the current postings regarding the KMG bid are pub rumour and nothing more.

Depends who one was talking to in the pub ?

[bluto]

I keep asking myself, 'Just whose arse is Sid licking?' Are you looking for a seat on the board or something?

There HAVE been rumours... scurrilous and probably baseless.... about Sid's relationships with Board Members and thus about him personally profitting from the overpriced sale of the club and how that apparently had been driving his mindless abuse of people who merely sought clarification on CIC points...

So I helpfully have tried - and tried again and again - to help Sid lay them to rest.

He has yet to answer, which I find sad.

How can I continue to be one of Sid's supporters if I can't tell his detractors, "There you are! Sid's been able to lay such rumours to rest with perfectly honest and clear refutations of your malign aspersions.", when he won't answer?

I imagine he's been too busy with other things and he'll see your post and be on here soon to allay your (and my) fears and clear things up.

[buddiecat]

Depends who one was talking to in the pub ?

pub based rumours - it's the drink talking

[Guest somner9]

The operative part being rumoured, the only thing we know for definite is KMcG has stated an interest in buying the club, we don't know if there has been a bid or anything about it and indeed the next thing we could hear is that KMcG has bought the shares without us ever being told about his plans for the club.

The funds would still have to be raised somehow. I can't imagine there are many St Mirren fans with a few million quid lying under their mattress and given the current financial state of Scottish football, the tv deal coming to an end and the mess that banks got themselves into with bad debt, I'd be very interested to know who would be funding the deal.

This is where I suppose we should be a little more clear in the language used! The bid/interest involving KMcG (Which is "In Town") is based on ownership/part ownership transferring to the fans within five years. That is not a rumour but fact as regards that bid/interest.

If you are worried that as you say KMcG or a few others could increase their shareholding and effectively take control of SMFC and the introduce it as a "fait accompli" then you would have to question the selling consortium, or individuals there in as they hold the required shares that would enable KMcG (Or A.N. Other) to take control. And they have gone on record as stating they only want the best for the club going forward. So if they concluded a "Secret deal" then they would have to justify how it measures up against their selling criteria.

Edited November 19, 2011 by somner9

[buddiecat]

fuxake......why does this have to descend into a "CIC is shite" "KMG bid is shite" debate.

There is no info on KMG's bid available. We have enough detail on the CIC bid for people like animal to get certifiable with their sulk induced neurosis. It could be that KMG's consortium bid is the dogz bollox and could lead us into the Champions League......and it could be that it will involve the club being handed over to fans in five years.

The one thing I can assure you of is that the current postings regarding the KMG bid are pub rumour and nothing more.

However, I am going to be posting details of a signing on the rumour thread that is 100% true.

pub rumour - internet rumour = same thing,

and it has not descended into a cic is shite kmg is shite debate - it always has been that type of debate

Edited November 19, 2011 by buddiecat

[St. Sid]

pub rumour - internet rumour = same thing,

Exactly. You only have to look at scottd's posts as he desperately hangs all his hopes on a solitary article in the gutter press about a "bid" which was immediately played down as a note of interest by the BoD. It mentioned the "possibility" of the club being "handed over" to the fans after 5 years. He clearly has no information beyond that other than what his fellow drunks feed him for fun in the boozer on a Friday night.

My information comes straight from the BoD and I have seen nothing on here to suggest that anyone on here other than me actually has any information other than what has been made up in the press / pubs.

I was offered a place on the BoD way back when JC was still manager, and again last year - and then as part of the initial CIC team. As per previous posts I am not interested - I put money into St Mirren as a supporter and have no interests beyond that. I might get involved in the running of the club at least ten years down the line once I've kicked the sidlettes oot the hoose.