ktf Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Thought I'd copy and paste the content of the email that came out yesterday, for those who didn't get it. We are pleased to confirm the meeting to discuss the way forward for the proposed Fan and Community based buy out of the 52% shareholding will go ahead next Wednesday night the 30th of November at 7pm at St Mirren Park. We are however aware that there is widespread industrial action planned for next Wednesday so the meeting will be covered online (details to follow) and we will arrange a second meeting should we get the feedback that many interested in coming have been unable to attend because of the industrial action. We will endeavour to release further information nearer the time, however we feel it is important to reiterate the key points that we believe make the 10000hours CiC Fan and Community ownership model the best for the club. • Fan Governance and Community ownership: This is a genuine guarantee of the C.I.C model and does not deliver simply a token gesture, i.e. a fans representative on the board. • Unpaid board members. • The opportunity for fans to achieve a seat on the club board: The C.I.C model will create an avenue for fans, with the appropriate skills and willingness to apply them for the benefit of the club and community, to have a seat on the club BoD without the barrier of personal wealth. Not as a token gesture but as a genuine board member, with equal rights and responsibilities. • That the stadium of the Club and other capital assets should be "asset locked". • That no borrowing should be made which either requires security against the assets of the club or payment from the club to individuals or companies with the purpose of repaying any personal or corporate debt incurred in purchasing club shares. • That St Mirren Park Facilities are utilised not just for the benefit of the club but for the whole Community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo57 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Thanks for that. I never received the email. I notice no CIC detractors have tried to discredit the contents. I wonder why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 I'd like to go to the meeting but won't be able to attend so I'd at least like the information e-mailed and some time for us all to digest and discuss it before making a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Thought I'd copy and paste the content of the email that came out yesterday, for those who didn't get it. [/size][/font][/color] Fans representative on the board! Eh that's a new one... Hmm that's the "What" if we can just get the "Where, why and how" who knows who'll be that board member??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Fans representative on the board! Eh that's a new one... Hmm that's the "What" if we can just get the "Where, why and how" who knows who'll be that board member??? If you read the full line you'll note it's not just promising that, i.e. not just a token gesture, so it could easily be more than one (just as was always the case). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 If you read the full line you'll note it's not just promising that, i.e. not just a token gesture, so it could easily be more than one (just as was always the case). You'll no doubt be able to tell us where we can read that information issued by 10000 hours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 You'll no doubt be able to tell us where we can read that information issued by 10000 hours? Yes, at the top of the page where ktf posted it. The commitment is as stated to "fan governance" and as Tsumirren has noted we are not talking about just an individual representative of the fans on the board. At the end of the day you may not like some of the people involved or be critical of some of the mistakes that we have made, but the whole point is that this is a unique opportunity for the fans and community to purchase control of the club while the club is in a stable position. To our knowledge no one has ever tried to by do that before, that is get a fans group together to buy the club while it is stable rather than in crisis. Normally the only chance the fans get to own the club they support is when it is in trouble and the owners have run out of ideas so try to get the fans to take it on...plenty of examples of this in the Scottish game. So the reason for putting out the above note was to try and take the "personal" out of the situation and just summarize the reasons all of those involved in spending the last two years trying to make it happen have spent that time. We still believe that the best long term model for the ownership of the club is Fan governance and Community ownership, and we still believe that the fans and community can make that happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Yes, at the top of the page where ktf posted it. The commitment is as stated to "fan governance" and as Tsumirren has noted we are not talking about just an individual representative of the fans on the board. At the end of the day you may not like some of the people involved or be critical of some of the mistakes that we have made, but the whole point is that this is a unique opportunity for the fans and community to purchase control of the club while the club is in a stable position. To our knowledge no one has ever tried to by do that before, that is get a fans group together to buy the club while it is stable rather than in crisis. Normally the only chance the fans get to own the club they support is when it is in trouble and the owners have run out of ideas so try to get the fans to take it on...plenty of examples of this in the Scottish game. So the reason for putting out the above note was to try and take the "personal" out of the situation and just summarize the reasons all of those involved in spending the last two years trying to make it happen have spent that time. We still believe that the best long term model for the ownership of the club is Fan governance and Community ownership, and we still believe that the fans and community can make that happen. You are answering other peoples posts? the OP said Quote:((just as was always the case). can you confirm that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Yes I answered your question back to TsuMirren for him....I am sure if he objects he will let us know. Not sure I understand your question. If you are asking, was there always going to be more than one person on the board of the club that was put there as a result of the member elections then the answer is yes....the whole board would have been put there as a result of the election to the members board. What our statement above is clarifying is that unlike many football club boards that have a "Fans Representative" the CIC model is committed to the mission statement of Supporters Direct which is: "Our goal is to promote sustainable spectator sports clubs based on supporters' involvement & community ownership" Our statement is even stronger than that in that it is not just about suppoerter involvement but supporter governance. is that clearer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Yes I answered your question back to TsuMirren for him....I am sure if he objects he will let us know. Not sure I understand your question. If you are asking, was there always going to be more than one person on the board of the club that was put there as a result of the member elections then the answer is yes....the whole board would have been put there as a result of the election to the members board. What our statement above is clarifying is that unlike many football club boards that have a "Fans Representative" the CIC model is committed to the mission statement of Supporters Direct which is: "Our goal is to promote sustainable spectator sports clubs based on supporters' involvement & community ownership" Our statement is even stronger than that in that it is not just about suppoerter involvement but supporter governance. is that clearer? No it's not clearer! in fact it seems to become less and less clear with a variety of different statements issued containing conflicting information. KTF's post states that in relation to an email said to be issued by 10000 hours that quote: (so it could easily be more than one (just as was always the case). Refering to as the email states Fans on the "Club Board"! However in the information document issued by 10000 hours and the meetings/presentations held the fan representation is reffered to several times as being on the "Elected Members Board" of the CiC that being fans, community and business members. Not the Club Board of SMFC. Do you know which statements are correct and which are incorrect? Because it is becoming increasingly difficult to ascertain what the facts are and who is in touch with them. P.s. You might want to think about that answering posts of others thing, Some say and suggest on these boards that is a practice adopted by multiple alias type posters to further their own agenda. heaven forbid eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Somner, I thought you'd been paying attention mate. The public meetings, which numerous people have posted reports on, saw discussion around the make up of the boards. Some people have been involved in something like this, some people were open to listen and some were almost there with an agenda. The message that each of those individuals, plus other "groupings", should have been able to take was that things were very much open for voting. Nobody has said that a number would be forced upon any of us and there has been no black or white ratio. To cover my statement of it always having been the case I'd say that it's been discussed as "fans", I'm sure I heard "fans" at the public meetings and it was certainly put forward as "fans" during any discussion I've had with Richard. With regards to the elected members board, yes fans will be on there and it's been stated the number of "members" who can feature on that and the club board will be capped...I forget the number, 5 or 6 perhaps. That opens up fans being in that number and fans also being voted in to raise the number, again I'd hope there'd be a vote to decide how many board members we'd have (perhaps not straight away as you'd need to analyse what they'd do)). That voting could see any number of fans come in, after all you'd have more fans voting than other groups, but would that mean the correct people are in place. Also...how many fans want torn to ribbons on here? How many fans actually want to dig in to things and help out, how many would have the time? It's all pretty much there, and if we put the same energy in to whatever group takes over as we do in to posting on here it certainly wouldn't hurt. You can also be pretty much assured that if this did look like a token offering or that the CIC wouldn't offer the fans a voice then I'd have been ripping it to shreds. I've been there before, didn't like it and did everything i could to try turning things round and that wasn't even at my club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 No it's not clearer! in fact it seems to become less and less clear with a variety of different statements issued containing conflicting information. KTF's post states that in relation to an email said to be issued by 10000 hours that quote: (so it could easily be more than one (just as was always the case). Refering to as the email states Fans on the "Club Board"! However in the information document issued by 10000 hours and the meetings/presentations held the fan representation is reffered to several times as being on the "Elected Members Board" of the CiC that being fans, community and business members. Not the Club Board of SMFC. Do you know which statements are correct and which are incorrect? Because it is becoming increasingly difficult to ascertain what the facts are and who is in touch with them. P.s. You might want to think about that answering posts of others thing, Some say and suggest on these boards that is a practice adopted by multiple alias type posters to further their own agenda. heaven forbid eh? On this point, you have totally missed it! I quoted an email, you misinterpreted it. Tsu clarified it and said that was always the case, you said 'show me where it said that' 10000hrs showed you and you still don't accept it. There's not agreeing because you have a good case an then there's not agreeing just because you just don't and all your arguments have been answered. Sadly, you're the latter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Somner, I thought you'd been paying attention mate. The public meetings, which numerous people have posted reports on, saw discussion around the make up of the boards. Some people have been involved in something like this, some people were open to listen and some were almost there with an agenda. The message that each of those individuals, plus other "groupings", should have been able to take was that things were very much open for voting. Nobody has said that a number would be forced upon any of us and there has been no black or white ratio. To cover my statement of it always having been the case I'd say that it's been discussed as "fans", I'm sure I heard "fans" at the public meetings and it was certainly put forward as "fans" during any discussion I've had with Richard. With regards to the elected members board, yes fans will be on there and it's been stated the number of "members" who can feature on that and the club board will be capped...I forget the number, 5 or 6 perhaps. That opens up fans being in that number and fans also being voted in to raise the number, again I'd hope there'd be a vote to decide how many board members we'd have (perhaps not straight away as you'd need to analyse what they'd do)). That voting could see any number of fans come in, after all you'd have more fans voting than other groups, but would that mean the correct people are in place. Also...how many fans want torn to ribbons on here? How many fans actually want to dig in to things and help out, how many would have the time? It's all pretty much there, and if we put the same energy in to whatever group takes over as we do in to posting on here it certainly wouldn't hurt. You can also be pretty much assured that if this did look like a token offering or that the CIC wouldn't offer the fans a voice then I'd have been ripping it to shreds. I've been there before, didn't like it and did everything i could to try turning things round and that wasn't even at my club. Thanks for that but i feel we need a statement from 10000 hours detailing which of their statements are correct and which are incorrect as they are conflicting as to what level (Club, Fans Elected Board) in their structure of various boards will fans be represented up to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Somner9 may I ask you a question? Putting all the detail aside for the moment what do you actually believe about the best ownership model for the club? I have read with interest some of your text on ISP's so it appears to be the case that your preference is for a Fans Governance model. Is this correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 On this point, you have totally missed it! I quoted an email, you misinterpreted it. Tsu clarified it and said that was always the case, you said 'show me where it said that' 10000hrs showed you and you still don't accept it. There's not agreeing because you have a good case an then there's not agreeing just because you just don't and all your arguments have been answered. Sadly, you're the latter now. 10000 hours have issued an email (to you) stating fans representation on the "Club Board" and a conflicting statement in their official proposal document stating fan representation on the "Elected members Board". How can anyone make an informed decision when the issuer sends out conflicting statements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Thanks for that but i feel we need a statement from 10000 hours detailing which of their statements are correct and which are incorrect as they are conflicting as to what level (Club, Fans Elected Board) in their structure of various boards will fans be represented up to. I dont believe there has been any conflict....but to make it crystal clear...........Fans will be on all the boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Somner9 may I ask you a question? Putting all the detail aside for the moment what do you actually believe about the best ownership model for the club? I have read with interest some of your text on ISP's so it appears to be the case that your preference is for a Fans Governance model. Is this correct? Fans governance absolutely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 10000 hours have issued an email (to you) stating fans representation on the "Club Board" and a conflicting statement in their official proposal document stating fan representation on the "Elected members Board". How can anyone make an informed decision when the issuer sends out conflicting statements? They are not conflicting. they are staements about two different things. 2 organisations. One the CIC members board One the board of the Club Both with fans on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Fans governance absolutely! Ok, so what is it that you feel is missing from the current proposal that does not produce Fan Governance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 I dont believe there has been any conflict....but to make it crystal clear...........Fans will be on all the boards. So just to be clear are you saying categorically that any duly elected individual member (£10 per month) of 10000 hours CiC is guaranteed a seat on any of the three boards (elected members, club and exec)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 10000 hours have issued an email (to you) stating fans representation on the "Club Board" and a conflicting statement in their official proposal document stating fan representation on the "Elected members Board". How can anyone make an informed decision when the issuer sends out conflicting statements? I feel you are getting somewhere with 10000hrs so I'll bow out and leave it to them. However just to clarify, the email I posted went to all 800 pledgers, not just me. Also, if you read it it says that fan representation on the board will not be the way the CiC goes. Fans will be on the board of the football club but not as representatives but as equally members of the board, with equal rights and equal responsibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Ok, so what is it that you feel is missing from the current proposal that does not produce Fan Governance? On these boards you will see debate and discussion relating to potentially two other expressions of interest in acquiring 52% shareholding in SMFC. Some comment highlights that we (fans) no nothing of these potential bids and they will/could become formally accepted bids and we would be none the wiser on their detail until after this has happened, and as fans be last in line to be informed. That is exactly what has taken place with 10000 hours bid! it was accepted by the selling consortium, discussed/agreed with business and community members before a single fan of the club got to see any detail. This back to front approach to "Fan Governance" has shown a shocking level of contempt for the very people reputedly becoming the goverance of the club, i.e. "The Fans"... last to know anything about a proposal that aims to put them in charge of their club. Perhaps time will tell and genuine Fan governance will become a reality at SMFC, that being they are involved at the outset, and as we always are there till we die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 So just to be clear are you saying categorically that any duly elected individual member (£10 per month) of 10000 hours CiC is guaranteed a seat on any of the three boards (elected members, club and exec)? It is not quite that straight forward as there are rules and qualifications for directors....e.g if you were disqualified etc. Also boards have maximum numbers according to the mems and arts of the company. Also you need to distinguish between the CIC and the Club, as winning an election for the CIC gets a member on the board of the CIC you need to win the vote of the majority of the shares of the Club to get on the board of the club, but as the CIC would own a simple majorty of the shares then that is how that works But bascially yes, if there is an space on a board and an election is held for that space then if you qualify for nomination and win the election you go onto the board. Hopefully you dont see some sort of conspiracy in my longer answer, but it is all aimed at genuine "Fan Governance and Community Ownership" It is just made a bit more tricky because unlike the normal situation when fans end up owning their club because it is bust and so does not cost anything for us we need to take on some borrowings in order to fund the purchase and so this comes with some more complex rules but be assured that the funders take the Fan governace provision very seriously, it is as important to them as it clearly is to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 It is not quite that straight forward as there are rules and qualifications for directors....e.g if you were disqualified etc. Also boards have maximum numbers according to the mems and arts of the company. Also you need to distinguish between the CIC and the Club, as winning an election for the CIC gets a member on the board of the CIC you need to win the vote of the majority of the shares of the Club to get on the board of the club, but as the CIC would own a simple majorty of the shares then that is how that works But bascially yes, if there is an space on a board and an election is held for that space then if you qualify for nomination and win the election you go onto the board. Hopefully you dont see some sort of conspiracy in my longer answer, but it is all aimed at genuine "Fan Governance and Community Ownership" It is just made a bit more tricky because unlike the normal situation when fans end up owning their club because it is bust and so does not cost anything for us we need to take on some borrowings in order to fund the purchase and so this comes with some more complex rules but be assured that the funders take the Fan governace provision very seriously, it is as important to them as it clearly is to you. Short answer - No... the postion remains the same as your intial proposal document, that being only places for five individual members are guaranteed on the Members Board. The email issued more than suggests that membership of the club board is guaranteed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Short answer - No... the postion remains the same as your intial proposal document, that being only places for five individual members are guaranteed on the Members Board. The email issued more than suggests that membership of the club board is guaranteed. Sorry but it says that the CiC provides an "avenue" for fans to have a place on the board. There is no guarantee there. You have misinterpreted the email once already. That's twice now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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